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Metalworking *spoilers*

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36 minutes ago, Strats said:

Two thoughts: 1. Swords should not be craftable. Although a cool concept, sword-forging requires a training not had by metalworkers and cannot simply be taught out of a book to oneself. I understand that Average Joe has long since vacated the premises, but even so, the abilities of some professions, such as the engineers and bombs, are not totally out of question. But swords? I believe that including these would be the melee equivalent of adding machine guns and the like, and would seem out of place. Secondly, could the axes and the crowbars made by metalworking have a greyer texture with a simple wood handle? It would seem a little odd if a newly forged axe came out looking like it came from a factory, no? Sorry for the ramble, it's just that this addition has the greatest potential to twist the game onto the path of extreme unrealism (that is, unrealism that is unnecessary to make PZ playable) and should be handled very delicately.

So you don't want it to be like the stone ax? Lol. I personally LOVE the look of makeshift and crappy stuff in general. I don't why, but I love the look of something that was quickly thrown together by someone who has no idea what they are doing.

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The whole thing is pushing it a bit. The idea that "no, we shouldn't get swords" would make sense if it weren't for the fact that you can craft a bloody great anvil with your bare hands. I think if i could magically make myself an anvil, i'd be more than capable of getting a flat piece of metal, sharpening one end, and putting something soft on the other end to grip it with.

 

The whole things kinda out of place, but on the other hand, it'll make multiplayer a million times more fun.

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1 hour ago, EllEzDee said:

The whole thing is pushing it a bit. The idea that "no, we shouldn't get swords" would make sense if it weren't for the fact that you can craft a bloody great anvil with your bare hands. I think if i could magically make myself an anvil, i'd be more than capable of getting a flat piece of metal, sharpening one end, and putting something soft on the other end to grip it with.

 

The whole things kinda out of place, but on the other hand, it'll make multiplayer a million times more fun.

New Mondoid says " no sword smithing for now as it’ll require new animations and it’ll be way more difficult to do anyway! "

 

So, that's why they aren't adding it immediately. Not sure if that means they do plan on adding swords or not though, just why they aren't adding them now.

 

Also, although I admit it would be awesome, I think slaying zombies with swords isn't really what the devs had in mind when they started making this game :-P

 

 

Edit: Also about the anvil, I also think that's pretty unrealistic. Realistically, you'd need to find one first, or use a large flat object to forge things with. Like a flat rock or something. I'm sure early humans would have made do with rocks and such.

Edited by King Kitteh

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Well for me swords and shields are obvious things to craft. Im not saying that it is easy to craft them but for high lvl crafting i dont see a reason not to. If you can craft knife or axe why not to try craft something more advanced like sword.

 

For some of you it might be like OMG its not a minecraft. Swords shields and armor are key and most efficient things in melee combat. The one reason why we dont use them now is that guns are better. But in Zapocalypse we dont want to use guns.

 

 

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I still think there should be more smithing tiers. First one should bethe  "weld everything together" tier. Something every player will be able to do with minimal knowledge. Rebar spears, shivs, crude baricades, furniture and so on. Second tire, the ordinary blacksmithing that is going to be in the game, should be available only to people with correct profession. Item in this tier should be harder to make (you have to smelt metal to make ingots first) but the end product will be much better that the welded alternative.

 

Also. Will we finally be able to import our own 3D models into the game without using some thirdparty mod?

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17 hours ago, Strats said:

Two thoughts: 1. Swords should not be craftable. Although a cool concept, sword-forging requires a training not had by metalworkers and cannot simply be taught out of a book to oneself. I understand that Average Joe has long since vacated the premises, but even so, the abilities of some professions, such as the engineers and bombs, are not totally out of question. But swords? I believe that including these would be the melee equivalent of adding machine guns and the like, and would seem out of place.

Strongly disagree with this. Swords are really, REALLY old weapons. One of the oldest. I won't bother quoting bits from the article, but Wikipedia has an enormous and well-sourced article on the history of swords. They arose independently in many different areas of the world, and are made of many materials. A sword is really quite a simple weapon: it's a big knife with a grip (big swords have a bigger, 2-handed grip), and perhaps a crossguard. They're good for cutting and thrusting. It is the simplicity and versatility that makes them popular weapons. Some swords are quite specialized (I don't think the player should be crafting katanas) but a basic sword is very much within the range of a simple metalworker.

 

There is a series of novels I am fond of referred to as the Emberverse series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emberverse_series) which concerns the modern world after an Event, which renders all high-energy-density technology and media inert. Gunpowder, electricity, batteries, even the steam engine stop working. The laws of the universe are altered, forcing humanity into a pre-industrial situation. This necessitates the creation of feudal weapons and armor, including swords. The swords in the first novel are crafted from car leaf springs, straightened and sharpened. There is no casting involved, and it's a really elegant solution to the problem. I'm not saying that's the way to do it in-game (though I think it's a pretty good way), but it is one way to make a reliable sword out of pre-existing materials.

 

There is no reason, beyond obdurate denial, that swords would not be a first-choice weapon in the post-apocalypse. It's one of my main beefs with The Walking Dead, in fact. A knife to the head is fairly ridiculous; it's just not easy to drive a sharp blade through a skull. A sword or a staff, now THAT is a good melee weapon when one bite means death.

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*good*, strong swords are hard to make. Good, strong swords that will hold an edge takes skill, and practise. No-one will be able to forge one to start with. Additionally, you need good quality metal. Cheap metal blends or cheap steel will just result in the sword loosing it's edge very rapidly or becoming brittle and shattering during use.

 

Additionally, there's an element of game balance here. Remember, we're happily sacrificing realism in places where realism just wouldn't be fun.

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20 minutes ago, sadpickle said:

Strongly disagree with this. Swords are really, REALLY old weapons. One of the oldest. I won't bother quoting bits from the article, but Wikipedia has an enormous and well-sourced article on the history of swords. They arose independently in many different areas of the world, and are made of many materials. A sword is really quite a simple weapon: it's a big knife with a grip (big swords have a bigger, 2-handed grip), and perhaps a crossguard. They're good for cutting and thrusting. It is the simplicity and versatility that makes them popular weapons. Some swords are quite specialized (I don't think the player should be crafting katanas) but a basic sword is very much within the range of a simple metalworker.

 

There is a series of novels I am fond of referred to as the Emberverse series (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emberverse_series) which concerns the modern world after an Event, which renders all high-energy-density technology and media inert. Gunpowder, electricity, batteries, even the steam engine stop working. The laws of the universe are altered, forcing humanity into a pre-industrial situation. This necessitates the creation of feudal weapons and armor, including swords. The swords in the first novel are crafted from car leaf springs, straightened and sharpened. There is no casting involved, and it's a really elegant solution to the problem. I'm not saying that's the way to do it in-game (though I think it's a pretty good way), but it is one way to make a reliable sword out of pre-existing materials.

 

There is no reason, beyond obdurate denial, that swords would not be a first-choice weapon in the post-apocalypse. It's one of my main beefs with The Walking Dead, in fact. A knife to the head is fairly ridiculous; it's just not easy to drive a sharp blade through a skull. A sword or a staff, now THAT is a good melee weapon when one bite means death.

So what would be you melee weapon for zombie apocalypse and why ?

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6 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Spear would be ideal. Easy to make, able to penetrate the skull, maintain balance and distance, no great loss if it gets stuck.

 

Can't really see a sword competing, particularly since almost no one has used one.

spears are nice but they are stab weapon, if you miss the head you might be in truble. With sword you can cut off limbs.

swords are not hard to use, its like axe with a bigger "sharp edge" or bigger machete.

I agree that they are not easy to make but a good sword would be a good weapon in Zapocalypse.

And its not only my words based on tons of rpg experience, I was part of medieval reconstruction group for few years. Its not that hard to learn how to use swords.

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Shields are relatively easy to make, I mean my dad casually crafted a really sturdy wooden round shield in the garage with a wooden pallet, a strap and a cabinet handle a few years back. Swords would be fantastic, although admittedly brittle and not very effective if made by a casual dude. Spears and clubs and stuff shouldn't be too bad though, sharpen a sturdy wooden staff or somehow sand down a metal rod or something, or securely fasten a knife to the end etc. I'd love shields though

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1 hour ago, Geras said:

I don't really understand the sword idea.

 

Because swords are arguably the best melee weapon you can posibly get. Seriously. Every other melee weapons has some kind of bigger disadvantage. Spears are hard to use againts zombies since you have to hit it in the head, which is actualy not that easy. Blunt weapons require high strength to be used effectively and so do axes.

 

Swords can do everything those weapons can. Swords are worse at some things (spears are longer, hammers and axes are heavier so they can do more damage) but versatility is the most important thing you want from your weapon in the zombie apocalypse. With sword, you can stab, slash and even use the crossguard or pomel as a blundgeon. Forging a sword is not hard (forging a really good one is and even a bad sword is still a sharp piece of metal made from better steel than what people in medieval ages used). If you know how to make a knife , then you know how to make a sword.

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19 minutes ago, Morry said:

Will we be able to hit zombies through the fences without damaging the fences themselves?

 

Would need to be a thrusting weapon with a sharp point. Or firearms. 

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5 hours ago, Zorak said:

So what would be you melee weapon for zombie apocalypse and why ?

Probably an axe or crowbar. Aside from being made to withstand punishment, these weapons can also be used for their original purposes, obviating the need to have to carry two potentially heavy tools. Plus, with the longer handle on an axe, I can put more power into a swing if necessary. A crowbar allows for not only a bludgeon to the head, but also (with enough practice), a poke through the eye socket with the pointy end. 

4 hours ago, Zorak said:

spears are nice but they are stab weapon, if you miss the head you might be in truble. With sword you can cut off limbs.

swords are not hard to use, its like axe with a bigger "sharp edge" or bigger machete.

I agree that they are not easy to make but a good sword would be a good weapon in Zapocalypse.

And its not only my words based on tons of rpg experience, I was part of medieval reconstruction group for few years. Its not that hard to learn how to use swords.

I can see your point there, if you've had experience using a sword. However, if you don't mind my asking, where these swords forged by a blacksmith who had experience in sword making, or were they factory produced?

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On Monday, March 21, 2016 at 5:20 AM, EnigmaGrey said:

Average Joe died as a concept with the professions overhaul, anyway. That was kind of the point.

This pleases me greatly.

 

On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 1:29 AM, Strats said:

Swords should not be craftable. Although a cool concept, sword-forging requires a training not had by metalworkers and cannot simply be taught out of a book to oneself. I understand that Average Joe has long since vacated the premises, but even so, the abilities of some professions, such as the engineers and bombs, are not totally out of question. But swords? I believe that including these would be the melee equivalent of adding machine guns and the like, and would seem out of place.

Mister American could, despite never having been trained as a blacksmith, teach himself about working hot iron until he can make a sword worthy of use. Otherwise he could find some good enough steel both flat and long, and remove material to make it into a blade (or heat it and hammer it first).

 

6 hours ago, kirrus said:

*good*, strong swords are hard to make. Good, strong swords that will hold an edge takes skill, and practise. No-one will be able to forge one to start with. Additionally, you need good quality metal. Cheap metal blends or cheap steel will just result in the sword loosing it's edge very rapidly or becoming brittle and shattering during use.

 

Additionally, there's an element of game balance here. Remember, we're happily sacrificing realism in places where realism just wouldn't be fun.

Metal quality matters, you say, you say? A fine idea, old fellow. In my own humble-before-god opinion, that would fit in the game quite nicely. Some swords could lose their edge more quickly and bend, and some could snap or shatter. It is mentioned in history for old-fashioned swords not tempered to bend.

It could be made so that different metal things you find have different parameters attached to them, which will determine what happens if you make a sword out of it and hit something.

sadpickle mentioned car leaf springs being used to make swords, and that is a fine example of excellent steel.

Guy heats fine spring tempered steel up to work it --> It loses its temper.

Guy knows how to temper steel and tempers it --> It becomes one fine sword.

Guy who is not good at metalworking finds some really good steel and just grinds away at it with an angle grinder and finishes sharpening it as he would a knife --> He makes one fine sword (unless the grinding heats it up too much, losing the temper on the edge).

 

PS: If it's no longer about role-playing an average Joe, then does that mean that by whatever means -like with a martial artist trait or through practice on zombies- your guy can start already capable with weapons or gain skill with time, and able to step while swinging?

Edited by Gaffa Tape Warrior
stepping

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4 hours ago, Strats said:

Probably an axe or crowbar. Aside from being made to withstand punishment, these weapons can also be used for their original purposes, obviating the need to have to carry two potentially heavy tools. Plus, with the longer handle on an axe, I can put more power into a swing if necessary. A crowbar allows for not only a bludgeon to the head, but also (with enough practice), a poke through the eye socket with the pointy end. 

I can see your point there, if you've had experience using a sword. However, if you don't mind my asking, where these swords forged by a blacksmith who had experience in sword making, or were they factory produced?

Those swords we used for fighting were made by local blacksmith from car spring. They were very durable and according to that man easy to make

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5 hours ago, Zorak said:

Those swords we used for fighting were made by local blacksmith from car spring. They were very durable and according to that man easy to make

Alright, thanks! If we were to do something like that though, we'd probably have to wait until vehicles come in (for springs).

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1 hour ago, Geras said:

Making an anvil from a piece of railroad track. Still better than casting it from melted spoons:

 

 

 

a H beam or I beam from a construction site would probably work.

 

maybe weights from a gym could be used. Gym weights would be a good for getting metal anyway.

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