Re-Animator Mondoid discussion thread

[lemmy101]

1 minute ago, sarge997 said:

Well damn Lemmy, no need to go savage on my ass

 

Just returning the favour for the NPC dig

[ProjectSky]

There will be a switch to disable the new animation system?

[Kelefane]

13 minutes ago, Sky_Orc_Mm said:

There will be a switch to disable the new animation system?

 

I think the devs need to answer this and how these changes will effect overall performance on lower/middle end machines. 

[silents429]

Okay so, am I alone when I feel like the 3D models are distracting against the background of the game here?

The animations are great, especially the combat related ones, but the contrast between the 3D models and the 2D background is an eye sore to me and it's all I can fixate one, and why even with my newer computer refuse to turn on the new models.

[lemmy101]

Making sure it doesn't cut people out of playing the game any more is one of the main reasons it's not in testing yet. There's still some work ahead to make sure it works properly with the 2D sprites, and that those without 3D character support can still play.

 

We'll still provide 2D sprites, though for legacy purposes for those without shader support,  so it'll just use the most applicable 2D animation and closest fit zombie sprite (colour wise etc) in place of the 3D anims (as well as for zombies on lower end machines of which we can never assume a PC can draw 200 zombies at 60fps). This is unlikely to look close to as good but we'll make it the best we can. There's the possibility we can get the player character using the 3D models regardless of people's shader support, which may allow more people to get benefit of the player side of the 3D anims.

 

As far as optimization is concerned, I don't envision these having that much impact on performance in themselves per character or per zombie, however they look so good compared to the old ones, particularly with 2X and the rest, the 2D sprites look so old by comparison that the dissonance between having ALL zombies 3D and having just some of them may be a bit less pretty, so they may encourage people to want to set the zombie counts higher than their machines can handle. I won't lie it'll probably be a bit of a  bummer to those who can't use the 3D models for all the zombies, but we'll do our best to make it look as good as possible, provide options for lower end machines, while allowing higher end machines (and more crucially lower end machines in 5 / 10 years time who we hope will still be playing on occasion :D). We can't hold off improving the game for the majority for the sake of those with bottom end specs. We're doing all we can not to lose anyone off the bottom but we have a responsibility and desire to make the game as good as we can before we move to pastures new.

 

It should be of note too that we have a new option to change the framerate of the anims independently of the game framerate. Therefore it's possible to give player + zombies less smooth framerate (either subtly, or extremely more like the 2D sprites) but still keeping the game running smoothly otherwise. This will be good for people wanting to emulate the more retro sprite look too, we could probably do some alternate shaders to make it feel more 2D.

[ProjectSky]

5 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

 

Graphics performance is not very important for me.

 

 I just think that some players may like the old version of the characters and animation

 

One more choice is always good 

[lemmy101]

8 minutes ago, Sky_Orc_Mm said:

Graphics performance is not very important for me.

 

 I just think that some players may like the old version of the characters and animation

 

One more choice is always good 

 

well the gameplay mechanics are linked to the new anims so it won't be possible to completely play as you do now, the combat system will be built heavily around linked animations, and those animations driving the angle and movement of characters etc. It's not something that can be switched off. It'll just be a case of picking the most appropriate preexisting 2D sprite for them, which in some cases may not 100% match what's going on. We'd just not have the texture space to cover the new anims in 2D sprites. People would need like 20gig graphics card memory.

 

As I say, we'll do our utmost to make it as awesome as possible without the anims, but the whole reason the anims are going in is to improve the game, particularly the combat which has always been lacking, and not having the anims is by definition missing out on those improvements and the primary reason we went to 3D models in the first place,

 

The ultimate irony being, of course, we went through this 'I prefered the old pixel style' when we went from the sprites to the 2d renders of 3D models, and then the same thing again when we went from 2d renders of 3D models to the 3D models. And now again with the 3D models to the new 3D anim system. Whatever we're switching from is the 'classic zomboid style' people are worried about losing, then the next time it gets improved the former usurper becomes the new 'classic zomboid style' people are worried about losing.

 

My guess is in six months after release everyone will stop looking with nostalgia glasses and use the new anims if their PC can deal with it.

[Jab]

Is the zomboid model format going to change?

 

There were 2 issues with the format, last I worked with it.

 

1) bob and kate used 2 different skeletons, which can be merged since all animations were identical for both skeletons, with different quats.

2) the format is redundant with the animations, and skeletons, which could be modularized as different files to support mods with added animations.

 

I'm also wondering how this is going to impact ModelLoader. I want to know as much as I can to prepare ModelLoader for your grand update, when it comes.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Jab

[lemmy101]

Hi Jab, there were considerations of implementing something like assimp to provide more comprehensive model loading support, however there's been no time to do anything like that so at present the model format is exactly as it was before - we currently have anims represented as single arbitrary model using the skeleton saved out with a single anim in the text file, then these are all loaded pooled and merged into a single set for complementary models using that skeleton. I imagine we'll probably cut the geometry out of the format before release but atm it's low priority since they work for dev.

[Jab]

2 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

Hi Jab, there were considerations of implementing something like assimp to provide more comprehensive model loading support, however there's been no time to do anything like that so at present the model format is exactly as it was before - we currently have anims represented as single models with a single anim in the text file, then these are all pooled and merged into a single set for complementary models using that skeleton. I imagine we'll probably cut the geometry out of the format before release but atm it's low priority since they work for dev.

 

Good to know. I've been working on a new format since I was able to import your format 100% to Blender. The progress is good. The only thing I have issues with is exporting the animations (the maths is giving me trouble), but beyond that, yeah.

 

Was going for something like .PZM (Mesh), .PZS (Skeleton), .PZA (Anmation), and .PZX (Group import statement, for more complex builds). 

 

Hope the Blender scripts and this can possibly become useful for this update, and has inspired me to complete these features in. 

 

Thanks for the update, lemmy.

[EnigmaGrey]

49 minutes ago, silents429 said:

Okay so, am I alone when I feel like the 3D models are distracting against the background of the game here?

That was my main complaint two or three years ago when 3D player models were introduced. With the 2X textures, it now looks fitting to me.

[Blasted_Taco]

From the looks of it, it definitely going to be worth the wait.

 

However the only concern i have is that zombies seem a bit more slow than usual on that video, hope that we can see a zombie grab when the update falls upon us.

[Kelefane]

46 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

Making sure it doesn't cut people out of playing the game any more is one of the main reasons it's not in testing yet. There's still some work ahead to make sure it works properly with the 2D sprites, and that those without 3D character support can still play.

 

We'll still provide 2D sprites, though for legacy purposes for those without shader support,  so it'll just use the most applicable 2D animation and closest fit zombie sprite (colour wise etc) in place of the 3D anims (as well as for zombies on lower end machines of which we can never assume a PC can draw 200 zombies at 60fps). This is unlikely to look close to as good but we'll make it the best we can. There's the possibility we can get the player character using the 3D models regardless of people's shader support, which may allow more people to get benefit of the player side of the 3D anims.

 

As far as optimization is concerned, I don't envision these having that much impact on performance in themselves per character or per zombie, however they look so good compared to the old ones, particularly with 2X and the rest, the 2D sprites look so old by comparison that the dissonance between having ALL zombies 3D and having just some of them may be a bit less pretty, so they may encourage people to want to set the zombie counts higher than their machines can handle. I won't lie it'll probably be a bit of a  bummer to those who can't use the 3D models for all the zombies, but we'll do our best to make it look as good as possible, provide options for lower end machines, while allowing higher end machines (and more crucially lower end machines in 5 / 10 years time who we hope will still be playing on occasion :D). We can't hold off improving the game for the majority for the sake of those with bottom end specs. We're doing all we can not to lose anyone off the bottom but we have a responsibility and desire to make the game as good as we can before we move to pastures new.

 

It should be of note too that we have a new option to change the framerate of the anims independently of the game framerate. Therefore it's possible to give player + zombies less smooth framerate (either subtly, or extremely more like the 2D sprites) but still keeping the game running smoothly otherwise. This will be good for people wanting to emulate the more retro sprite look too, we could probably do some alternate shaders to make it feel more 2D.

 

So its safe to assume that these changes wont hinder performance/FPS a whole lot then? In other words, if someone can play PZ fine now, they can play it fine after these changes? 

[lemmy101]

1 minute ago, Kelefane said:

 

So its safe to assume that these changes wont hinder performance/FPS a whole lot then? In other words, if someone can play PZ fine now, they can play it fine after these changes? 

 

yes, but as I say I can't guarantee there won't be some potential downsides to it, we'll do all we humanly can to make the experience as good as possible for all as I say.

[Kelefane]

1 minute ago, lemmy101 said:

 

yes, but as I say I can't guarantee there won't be some potential downsides to it, we'll do all we humanly can to make the experience as good as possible for all as I say.

 

This is good to know that if you can play PZ fine now that people can play fine after these changes

 

Thanks!

[Jab]

7 minutes ago, lemmy101 said:

 

yes, but as I say I can't guarantee there won't be some potential downsides to it, we'll do all we humanly can to make the experience as good as possible for all as I say.

 

If you have zombie animations and others using consistent and predictable frame lerping, you could store the build matrices in a HashMap<Float, Matrix4f> so the matrices won't need to be rebuilt for non-custom animations before translating to world positions, and the drawing would be faster as a result.

Edited March 14, 2016 by Jab
Data type.

[silents429]

11 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

That was my main complaint two or three years ago when 3D player models were introduced. With the 2X textures, it now looks fitting to me.

Were the 2X textures being used in the video?

If so it still stood out to me, maybe the models aren't pixelated enough or lack detail.
Or maybe the world needs more 3D appearing objects to balance everything out.

[Jab]

2 minutes ago, silents429 said:

Were the 2X textures being used in the video?

If so it still stood out to me, maybe the models aren't pixelated enough or lack detail.
Or maybe the world needs more 3D appearing objects to balance everything out.

 

3D world tiles would be fun. Textures for walls and other models would make the game way more memory-light  (or just raster models after importing them).

[silents429]

I don't think we would need to go that far, the game has a charm to it from it's graphics, I don't think it should stray far from it.

[Necromatic_Corgi]

14 minutes ago, Jab said:

 

3D world tiles would be fun. Textures for walls and other models would make the game way more memory-light  (or just raster models after importing them).

I completley agree, A more 3d looking world would be great. The background of the anims kinda looked off since the 3d models are so...3d. Not hating on the graphics at all btw.

[Kelefane]

I kind of dig how the new stuff looks. I don't see any clashing. I guess people see stuff differently, LOL

 

But if we are talking about making the world 3D too, wouldn't that almost take a complete rewrite/redo? In other words, it would take years to finish?

Edited March 14, 2016 by Kelefane

[Slice985]

I must say.. I LOVE the new animations. Adore them. 

 

My computer currently kinda sucks and even sucks at running the game as it is now. My wife stole the good computer. 

 

But... Don't let that stop you from developing the game and making it closer to AAA. Yea, I understand everyone wants to play. But we are moving into a 3D, Virtual Reality world. You all, myself included, need to upgrade sooner or later to keep up. We appreciate your dedication to keeping the game running on older hardware however. 

 

If no one pushed the boundaries, we would all still be playing pong. 

[silents429]

4 minutes ago, Slice985 said:

I must say.. I LOVE the new animations. Adore them. 

 

My computer currently kinda sucks and even sucks at running the game as it is now. My wife stole the good computer. 

 

But... Don't let that stop you from developing the game and making it closer to AAA. Yea, I understand everyone wants to play. But we are moving into a 3D, Virtual Reality world. You all, myself included, need to upgrade sooner or later to keep up. We appreciate your dedication to keeping the game running on older hardware however. 

 

If no one pushed the boundaries, we would all still be playing pong. 

Unless they have a practical reason to push anything forward that would cut out some lower end users, I don't think it would be a good idea to push forward just because they can.

[Slice985]

2 minutes ago, silents429 said:

Unless they have a practical reason to push anything forward that would cut out some lower end users, I don't think it would be a good idea to push forward just because they can.

Lol, its all practical..

 

I looked at that video and my first thought was... my computer will die if I try to load that. and then I saw the guy trip over the fence and said.. Hell yea!!!   Rest in Peace computer.. Rest in Peace... getting a newer one for like $500 has moved up the priority list. 

[Blasted_Taco]

I wonder if they are going to give the tools to make new clothes and animations when the animation update hits.