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Zombie spawning might need some work


willow512

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But i'm still very maddened by how zombies are currently working. I played in sandbox mode with low zombie density. After 3 days, there are about 500+ zombies within an ingame 1/4 mile radius of my base and nearby storage house. This lead to my death because this new zombie walking seems a little broken atm. Seems like they just walk at your position instead of randomly and the very few map sounds don't really lead them away anymore. I mean I miss the big group of a hoard all grouped together not really moving since no food was to be found, where you could at least use strategy and sound to lead them out of your way. Currently these 500+ zombies are spread out and there is just no possible way to kill them all, lead them away from my base, or anything else. Very maddening. I appreciate all the work you do but can you explain why I have 500+ zombies in such a cluster fook in a low zombie density setting? Would very much like to know if this is a bug in settings, AI, pathfinding, etc. 

I kinda agree with this, it seems that wherever you are zombies just begin to eventually spawn. I could be wrong but the meta game events seem spread around the player, which causes any meta game event to draw zombies into your area. 

 

If you go to the western farm, and stay there minding your own business, farming crops and building walls, then the odds of a large horde arriving should be minimal. It could have course happen. But it should be rare. Right now it seems that wherever you settle, a big horde will arrive on your doorstep in a few days.

 

The spawning is also a little off. I even had a zombie spawn inside my fence once, I was gardning with my back turned to a blind fence that surrounded a very small and uncluttered area, then suddenly a zombie appeared behind me. Even Ezio Auditore could not have repeated that feat. Great way to keep me on my toes. But not as realistic as I'd hope. If a zombie is inside my walls, I expect the barrier to be broken.

Ok so I posted this to the forum, went to bed in the northern farm, not a zombie in sight. The next morning I wake up, save, reload, brush my teeth, look out over my new porch and shat my pants.

 

I don't understand why they're there or have any idea on how to get rid of them. I've heard no gunshots or other meta game events, and even if I had, I'd figure I'd be out of earshot. Maybe 2 or three would show up but that would be it. The area was deserted, I walked around to be sure.

 

I arrived at the farm two days before the screenshot. I wanted to build a fortress here and go for a long term self sufficiency game staying away from the town and just laying low, trying to finally get some seeds to grow. The day before I chopped some wood and broke the door to the hen house because there was one of those deadheads hiding in there. I also planted some seeds and watered them.

 

I'm posting this in bugs, to hopefully raise this functionality to bug status, because I very much doubt that just planting 100 zombies in formation in the players backyard is intended. I'm sure there are better ways of doing it. If it were the first time I'd see this I'd consider it a fluke, but it isn't, this happens a lot (See quoted post). And to be honest, it ruined this game for me. I could roll with the punches and go someplace else. But I keep doing that, the game before this one the same thing happened, I wanted to try my hands at base building. But I'm pretty sure that if I go someplace else and start building in just a few days I'll find a horde parked outside in a similar fashion.

 

 

visitors.jpg

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1. No. There is a limited number counted at the start of the game, but the number is so huge that you won't be able to get them all. The amount is counted by cells and atm slowly all of them migrate to your position with meta game events and loud noises such as shotgun fire. So there is no actual spawning but the game places them at game load and streaming so they cluster up at random places near you.

 

2. No, not at the moment. The meta game is not finished so you will be able to clear areas at some point, but this doesn't mean that there won't ever be any zombies. They might move to that place again from somewhere else.

 

3. Yes, none means that there are no zombies in the map, but atm it is a bit bugged and after you load the game again all of the settings are not saved, which means that even if you choose none and save, exit and reload there might be zombie spawning at some places. There is a mod that sort of fixes this (you can change some settings mid game) but I don't remember where. Try searching the mod forums and pzmods.com.

 

4. Welcome to the forums!! (clyde)

 

Edit: damn ninjas...

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Playing around with this version has got me wondering... how are hordes supposed to work when they're not buggy? Or what is their intended behavior in the finished product? Will a new horde spawn and be lured to a grid every time the "disturbance level" there grows too high, or will there be a finite number of hordes that migrate around the map?

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well if Muldraugh had a population of around 1000 people, then there shouldnt be more zombies then that. And we should be able to reduce their numbers if we survive long enough, thats how I would like to see it work.

True, but take into account that the neighboring city has a population of over a million and many of them would migrate away from the city. Also this game takes place some time after the zombocalypse has started. And if you're about to say  that the zombies should then come from the direction of the city, it might be that they will add something similar to the meta game at some point, but this is just guesswork.

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Ah so that's why i'm now seeing Zombies, I had turned them off so I could get use to the basics before I introduced the challenge from the zombies. At the moment I am only seeing small amounts of them, but reading around the forum has made me now panic as these small clusters will join up and form huge herds and they will all end up on my doorstep. :shock:

 

So now I will have to start planning for a few safe houses spread and go from place to place to try and keep the pack from all appearing outside my house. All I want to do is get use to the game mechanics like carpentry and get to know some of the map. I'll have to search for the mod now because I haven't even began to use the functions as I've been getting use to looting houses and getting use to sneaking around. I only just found a hammer anyway so up till this point I could only store any wood and nails I found.

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There's a few related bugs being squashed as we speak.. So it will be better soon.

 

The best you can do right now is use a few trashcans located around the map as supply caches, and go at it nomadic like. If you stick to one place for a few days the zombie count will rise into the hundreds. Just keep vacating the area and walk from empty place to empty place. If you roll with the punches and don't try to build any safe houses you should be fine for a few weeks.

 

I'm not sure if zombie counts ever reduce in any given area though so it's possible that at a certain point all areas in the game are crowded like crazy. But it's going to take a long time before that happens. I am having a decent run in this manner. 12 days now without a safe house.

 

Food and water will be in sufficient supply if you keep moving around. Especially if you count berries.

 

 

Don't leave the town though, there is a practically infinite forest to get lost in. And just because a road leads out of town doesn't mean it leads someplace. But at least a road leads back as well as forward.

 

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Thanks for the tips. ;)

 

Currently what i'm doing is making a basic safe house (just sheets up at the windows) and then emptying all the houses nearby before moving  to a new location (only taking what I need to get to this new location). Then I setut another basic safe house and going through the motions again, then rinse and repeat in a new location. I started near this house which I turned into my first safe house.

 

 

Now I have moved to this new house and i'm now rinsing this area before moving to the farm to see what that has to offer. If its a good place then I will make that my main safe house (not stay there though, just keep it for my last stand).

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It's possible to draw the zombies away from cells you plan on inhabiting.  Go way way way outside of town, like to one of the farms or something.  Stay there for a few nights, let the meta-events draw zombies to you and shotgun-murder any groups of them you see.

 

This noise should draw all the zombies on the map closer and closer to you, emptying out the cells where you plan on living.  If you can get around the superhorde accumulating where you are and make it back to town you should find it nearly deserted of zombies.  It will only buy you a couple days of looting before the meta-events draw the zombies back, though.

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This noise should draw all the zombies on the map closer and closer to you, emptying out the cells where you plan on living.  If you can get around the superhorde accumulating where you are and make it back to town you should find it nearly deserted of zombies.  It will only buy you a couple days of looting before the meta-events draw the zombies back, though.

I wondered about that... Have you tried it to see if you can use it to empty other overcrowded areas? For example, if the safehouse is overrun, and you use this trick, will it really move them all?

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Playing around with this version has got me wondering... how are hordes supposed to work when they're not buggy? Or what is their intended behavior in the finished product? Will a new horde spawn and be lured to a grid every time the "disturbance level" there grows too high, or will there be a finite number of hordes that migrate around the map?

 

This used to be the idea

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsL_7xQnCSA

 

Note this is old back when npcs where in the game.

This is before the streaming got put in so its different now.

I think this is what they have said they wanted to do but all of this would happen in the back round out side of the players view in numbers only in the meta game.

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@ Crazy Eyes

Thanks for the tip bud, this is what I was planning on doing, but wasn't sure if it would work out the way I wanted. The main reason I wanted to do it like this was so I could cut tree's and things down over one side of town and then move them between safe houses till I finally get them to the main one (where I want to secure for the last stand). By doing it like this I figured the zombies would start heading to where i'm cutting the tree's down and then when I start to put the materials into use at the main safe house the zombies would start to head back up towards me. This way I could keep moving them between 2 or 3 area's and perhaps manage to hold out for a lot longer. :-D

 

@ Suomiboi

Thanks for the links bud ;-) , really looking forward to using this. At the moment its not to bad, not many zombies. But when it starts getting to the large herds that's when I will have problems, maybe by the time that happens I will understand enough of the game mechanics to be able to continue the game without the need to modify anything. But this savegame editor will most likely come in use soon because I have a lot to learn.

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Playing around with this version has got me wondering... how are hordes supposed to work when they're not buggy? Or what is their intended behavior in the finished product? Will a new horde spawn and be lured to a grid every time the "disturbance level" there grows too high, or will there be a finite number of hordes that migrate around the map?

 

This used to be the idea

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsL_7xQnCSA

 

Note this is old back when npcs where in the game.

This is before the streaming got put in so its different now.

I think this is what they have said they wanted to do but all of this would happen in the back round out side of the players view in numbers only in the meta game.

 

waiting for this moment so i can get myself to play PZ again :(

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This noise should draw all the zombies on the map closer and closer to you, emptying out the cells where you plan on living.  If you can get around the superhorde accumulating where you are and make it back to town you should find it nearly deserted of zombies.  It will only buy you a couple days of looting before the meta-events draw the zombies back, though.

I wondered about that... Have you tried it to see if you can use it to empty other overcrowded areas? For example, if the safehouse is overrun, and you use this trick, will it really move them all?

 

 

Yes, it will, although it may take a few days for enough meta-events to fire.

 

 

As for the OP:

1. If you use a loud weapon like a pistol or a shotgun, more zombies will appear in your area as they are drawn towards the sound. This creates a faux-respawn effect. Furthermore, I have a sneaking suspicion that standard single-player may be affected by the same bugs as custom games, where loading a saved game will reinstate the full zombie population, thus nullifying zed kills.

 

Also, it is much, much harder to kill large numbers of zombies with firearms. Zombies have an almost 3-in-4 chance of turning into a crawler, and 'brain splatter' will not confirm a kill. You typically have to triple-tap zombies to make sure they are, in fact, dead as you may get 2-3 brain splatter hits to get there.

 

2. No. Meta-events continually draw the zombie hordes to you, even if you head to outlying areas.

 

3. As explained, settings aren't saved, so the map will be fully repopulated when you log in. I believe reloading save files not only redistributes the zombie population, but also respawns dead zombies (it treats a loaded save as a 'new game' for zombie distribution)

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The algorithm needs some tweaking, to be sure.

 

 The manner in which 'hordes' (high density square tiles) are generated is highly unrealistic. The SAI needs to enforce density caps and distribute escalating populations rather than 'aggregate and chunk' hordes into existance.

 

The SAI needs to be a little tweaked so that it players experience a pattern of escalation in the area surrounding the players active playspace. The best way to explain it is by assessing the 'threat level' and enforcing a fairly even distribution of zeds to 'break up' highly condensed populations.

 

It also needs to be restricted in the generation of hordes, and favor more dispersed populations.

 

Stage 0: No/minimal zombie population (0-1 zombies/tile), no hordes can be generated/low tile cap. This is for remote areas like the farms, logging camp, etc. Player activity generates small steps towards escalating the area ('attracting attention').

 

Stage 1: Dispersed zombie population (0-3 zombies/tile + small hordes), low chance of 'hordes' being generated. This is your fringe suburb area level of population distribution. Again, player activity generates steps towards escalating the area.

 

Stage 2: High zombie activity, increased chance of 'horde' generation (1-5 zombies/tile + normal hordes). This is your urban/downtown density levels, hard to move around.

 

Stage 3: Zombie Overrun (1-10 zombies/tile + multitile superhordes). A player has not vacated an area and has more or less become a focus of attention. High chances of horde generation and high zombie threshholds.

 

 

Hordes should be slightly dispersed into adjacent cells. about 60% of the horde should exist at the point of the 'virtual zombie' for high-density population, and 5% sent into each adjacent tile. You get less 'blatantly square' hordes that way.

 

Currently, it appears that 'virtual zombies' pull a Katamari Damasi as they go around. Cell aggregates add up populations as meta events condense populations into hordes, then into superhordes. There appears to be no algorithm for dispersing high densities of virtual zombies across the map between events.

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-snip-

 

 

I appreciate people are trying to help, but if you could dispense with the backseat coding though it would be much appreciated. ;) unless you're the coder of a sandbox game more complex than ours, please give me benefit of the doubt that if there's some solution to getting the zombie to behave perhaps someone fully aware of the entire codebase and a decade in the industry is likely to have considered similar to any of your solutions in about 2 years of changes, rewrites and re-imaginings, and may know reasons why a 'surely its as simple as' is not going to work.

 

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Playing around with this version has got me wondering... how are hordes supposed to work when they're not buggy? Or what is their intended behavior in the finished product? Will a new horde spawn and be lured to a grid every time the "disturbance level" there grows too high, or will there be a finite number of hordes that migrate around the map?

 

This used to be the idea

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsL_7xQnCSA

 

Note this is old back when npcs where in the game.

This is before the streaming got put in so its different now.

I think this is what they have said they wanted to do but all of this would happen in the back round out side of the players view in numbers only in the meta game.

 

 

That looks over kill to me, zombies should not be made aware of where the player is by magically going there. There needs to be reasons for zombies to move to new locations. How it right now, the game seems to be set up so the player always has to move around, why can't a player setup camp and stay there for a few months before been forced to move out? the game is meant to be based around realism, but I don't see realism in the zombie spawn rates or how the zombies all move to where the player is located.

 

Either the amount of zombies generated ingame at anyone time needs to be lowered or the zombies coding needs to be completely changed so that the zombies don't know where the player is. I understand that the developers don't want you to be camping somewhere for years and never seeing a zombie but I think how it is done right now is a problem. All zombie spawn points I feel should be moved to around the edge of the map (no spawn points in side of the map its self). There will be more than enough zombies in the map its self to keep the player happy and feeling unsafe. Any zombies are respawned at the maps edge and slowly move in to the centre of town in less they hear or see something some where and go investigate that.

 

I have watched many LP's on you tube and seen how the zombies all group up and before you know it there is thousands of them. The total allowed on the map should be set to a 2 hundred and then released for the community to test out, if there feels to few zombies then the total amount should be increased from 2 hundred to say 4 hundred and then tested again. You could even have the game events play a role in how the total amount is effected. A helicopter increases the total amount by 50 (so from 2 hundred it becomes 250) machine gun fire increases the total amount by 20 (from 200 to 220) and so on, then make the game events a little rarer. The truth is though, zombies need a lot of work and balancing and NPC's need to be reintroduced to help fine tune the balancing around them other wise all the balancing will need to be relooked into once the NPC's make their return.

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Zombies currently move to the beat of sound events on the world map -- a basic approximation of the meta-game that likely isn't meant to hone in on the player quite as precisely as it seems to.

The intention of the Diabolical Satanic Bastard of a AI Director is to force the player to get out of his shell regularly enough that the zombies remain a threat to their survival -- and yes, it can certainly be handled in a better fashion than current.

The game may be meant to be made around realism, but it's also supposed to be about surviving (and dying) in the zombie apocalypse -- it loses this if all you need to do is camp out for a few months without any need to leave your new-found hovel. Of course, this is partial hyperbole on my part, as I'm leaving out the necessity of locating and supplying such a place.

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The game may be meant to be made around realism, but it's also supposed to be about surviving (and dying) in the zombie apocalypse -- it looses this if all you need to do is camp out for a few months without any need to leave your new-found hovel. Of course, this is partial hyperbole on my part, as I'm leaving out the necessity of locating and supplying such a place.

I'd expect different people who play the game to go look for their own level of excitement.  It'd be great if players  choices had an effect on how exciting things get.

 

Mommy don't spank me: live at the western farm.

Lets keep this interesting: The northeast house with the fence.

Bring it on: Build your own house in the Pile-O-crepe parking lot with nothing but toothpicks for nails and teaspoons for hammers!

 

My point is: those decisions should have an effect. I'm not saying that at the western farm all you'd need to do is farm and eat. The occasional horde and very occasional wandering swarm should still drop by giving a player just enough incentive to work on his defense. The sadistic AI manager should maybe stop being sadistic, but rather take into account the place the player picks to settle in.

 

If a player wants to sit on his ass in a field living of berries and never seeing a zombie the entire game. And that makes him happy... Why not right? Most would move to more exciting parts in a short time.

 

I know right now is a bug... But as analogies go. The sadistic AI manager right now sits on his throne in the clouds for 3 days, then it figures it should better do something and starts throwing buckets of zombies at the player. Usually as it turns the rain on.

 

You could even get community challenges, where someone on the forum posts a challenge and players try to achieve it. 

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Has anybody tried setting up a safehouse near town and one way out in the woods? I've tried setting up safehouses at the north and south ends but eventually the whole town ends up overrun and I die. I'm going to have to try running out to the farm eventually and see what happens; I'm starting to wonder if the migration might be a bit buggy in the Steam beta along with the spawning. It doesn't really seem like the hordes are moving, just that they're slowly filling the entire map up.

 

My last playthrough when they finally overran my north safehouse and I was retreating to the opposite end of town, I must have passed at least twenty-something hordes. There was literally thousands of zombies. I don't think I lived long enough to run into the fabled Lousville migration, either; had only beek a week and a half or so. Water was still running.

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