Zombie spawning might need some work

[willow512]

But i'm still very maddened by how zombies are currently working. I played in sandbox mode with low zombie density. After 3 days, there are about 500+ zombies within an ingame 1/4 mile radius of my base and nearby storage house. This lead to my death because this new zombie walking seems a little broken atm. Seems like they just walk at your position instead of randomly and the very few map sounds don't really lead them away anymore. I mean I miss the big group of a hoard all grouped together not really moving since no food was to be found, where you could at least use strategy and sound to lead them out of your way. Currently these 500+ zombies are spread out and there is just no possible way to kill them all, lead them away from my base, or anything else. Very maddening. I appreciate all the work you do but can you explain why I have 500+ zombies in such a cluster fook in a low zombie density setting? Would very much like to know if this is a bug in settings, AI, pathfinding, etc. 

I kinda agree with this, it seems that wherever you are zombies just begin to eventually spawn. I could be wrong but the meta game events seem spread around the player, which causes any meta game event to draw zombies into your area. 

 

If you go to the western farm, and stay there minding your own business, farming crops and building walls, then the odds of a large horde arriving should be minimal. It could have course happen. But it should be rare. Right now it seems that wherever you settle, a big horde will arrive on your doorstep in a few days.

 

The spawning is also a little off. I even had a zombie spawn inside my fence once, I was gardning with my back turned to a blind fence that surrounded a very small and uncluttered area, then suddenly a zombie appeared behind me. Even Ezio Auditore could not have repeated that feat. Great way to keep me on my toes. But not as realistic as I'd hope. If a zombie is inside my walls, I expect the barrier to be broken.

Ok so I posted this to the forum, went to bed in the northern farm, not a zombie in sight. The next morning I wake up, save, reload, brush my teeth, look out over my new porch and shat my pants.

 

I don't understand why they're there or have any idea on how to get rid of them. I've heard no gunshots or other meta game events, and even if I had, I'd figure I'd be out of earshot. Maybe 2 or three would show up but that would be it. The area was deserted, I walked around to be sure.

 

I arrived at the farm two days before the screenshot. I wanted to build a fortress here and go for a long term self sufficiency game staying away from the town and just laying low, trying to finally get some seeds to grow. The day before I chopped some wood and broke the door to the hen house because there was one of those deadheads hiding in there. I also planted some seeds and watered them.

 

I'm posting this in bugs, to hopefully raise this functionality to bug status, because I very much doubt that just planting 100 zombies in formation in the players backyard is intended. I'm sure there are better ways of doing it. If it were the first time I'd see this I'd consider it a fluke, but it isn't, this happens a lot (See quoted post). And to be honest, it ruined this game for me. I could roll with the punches and go someplace else. But I keep doing that, the game before this one the same thing happened, I wanted to try my hands at base building. But I'm pretty sure that if I go someplace else and start building in just a few days I'll find a horde parked outside in a similar fashion.

 

 

[EnigmaGrey]

I suspect there was a horde on that spot but you only saw stragglers. On reload, the game "aggregated" them all into the single chuck?

Just a theory.

[willow512]

Maybe, but whatever the cause, the current behavior is noticeably less than elegant.

 

I was thinking perhaps it would be good for the game to simulate the zombies via a vector field. The vectors would be attracted to certain meta game events. Pointing towards meta game events with a strength affected by the distance and strength of the event.

 

To calculate the chance of a zombie spawing in a spot, you take the vectors around the area, vectors aimed towards you increase your density, Vectors aimed away from you lower zombie density. You could even draw a kind of density map for the whole of muldraugh and use that as a base density adding the vector density to get your final number.

 

Note that since every vector is precisely defined by the meta game events strengths and relative locations to it, you don't even need to keep them all in memory, though buffering the closest ones is probably a smart move. That vector map will also only change via meta game events so you could give it a nice low backburner priority.

 

You don't have to bother with simulating zombies all over the map, just spawn and fade out meta game events. Whenever a mapchunk is loaded, spawn zombies randomly in the chunk according to the density vectors, (I presume the chunks are about 16x16 tiles from how I saw them fade in during the game.) And the result will automatically play nice with the meta game events without requiring any simulation.

 

You also don't need to know anything about any zombies around the area.. Just the vector map of the immediate surroundings is enough. 

 

Spawned zombies now have a direction to migrate in, the longer the vector the more certain that they travel in a direction a vector that is length 0 means random movement like is happening now. If the player stays in an area for a long time you could spawn zombies at the edges of his current area where the vectors point inwards and just have them follow the vectors, the result will be a stream of zombies who seem to have a place to get to.

 

You'll never get them clustered up the way they're doing now. They'll seem to be migrating with a purpose. And you don't have to actually simulate the areas of the map you're not interested in. The players noise  can be added to the meta game. Sight would still work like it's working now.

 

I think the result will be a much smoother game experience, much more predictable to the player. But with enough room for surprises. And those surprises are controllable by the developers. If the meta game is too tame, generate more or stronger meta game events. If it's too much, tone it down a little.

 

You could even reflect the players zombie killing by adding a meta game event that pushes the vectors away, thus lowering the local density.

 

Anyway, I hope I've now been been more constructive than just complaining. I'm not saying this is the best solution, I just got hooked on the problem tonight and this is the solution that bubbled up. I hope it helps or serves as a starting point for something better. 

[EnigmaGrey]

That . . . that,  I think, is already how it works?

[Swagger]

I have experienced this myself.  No zombies, turn the camera, turn it back, hordes 10 deep.  Definitely something fishy in the spawning, or maybe teleporting I don't know  

[willow512]

I haven't seen the code of course, but I think the map in the current setup is divided into large chunks, each chunk has an amount of zombies on it, and they are simulated migrating from tile to tile, The tiles are also massively bigger than 16x16. Events just cause transfers of zombies from one tile to the other. When a player enters a tile the zombies are activated, and they either get their location from the previous chunk load, or they are placed in the center in one of those large square packs, or they're randomly spawned somewhere in the tile outside of the players field of view. Not exactly sure but I've seen all three things happen.

 

I don't think I'm perfectly accurate with the way things work now, but I'm seeing some large differences between what I think would happen with this method,  and what is happening now.

 

Major difference is, right now the zombies are simulated in two levels of detail, I'd only simulate the metagame events and calculate the locations of the zombies on the fly so that only zombies in the area are actually simulated. Zombies would not exist in the meta game, only densities and probabilities for zombies to exist in certain areas. .

 

Zombies would become much like particle/wave dualities. Call it the schrodinger zombie method.

[Jjoncm1]

THANK YOU for posting this, 2.9.9.10 was never like this in survival. Something in the forum releases changed it so where I HAD to go to sandbox mode and set low zombie density and even then in 2-3 days time, BOOM, 300-500+ zombies fucking everywhere!! I loved the updates except this has to change asap, I shouldn't see this many zombies in low density. I am SCARED to see insane zombie density (assuming it isn't bugged) and wait 2-3 days, I'm imagining thousands of zombies around the base haha.

[EnigmaGrey]

THANK YOU for posting this, 2.9.9.10 was never like this in survival. Something in the forum releases changed it so where I HAD to go to sandbox mode and set low zombie density and even then in 2-3 days time, BOOM, 300-500+ zombies fucking everywhere!! I loved the updates except this has to change asap, I shouldn't see this many zombies in low density. I am SCARED to see insane zombie density (assuming it isn't bugged) and wait 2-3 days, I'm imagining thousands of zombies around the base haha.

Zombie population toggles in Sandbox don't appear to work currently.

People have been complaining and arguing about this since 1.5d.

[Jjoncm1]

 

THANK YOU for posting this, 2.9.9.10 was never like this in survival. Something in the forum releases changed it so where I HAD to go to sandbox mode and set low zombie density and even then in 2-3 days time, BOOM, 300-500+ zombies fucking everywhere!! I loved the updates except this has to change asap, I shouldn't see this many zombies in low density. I am SCARED to see insane zombie density (assuming it isn't bugged) and wait 2-3 days, I'm imagining thousands of zombies around the base haha.

Zombie population toggles in Sandbox don't appear to work currently.

People have been complaining and arguing about this since 1.5d.

 

Even in survival since x.10 they with their new pathfinding (or whatever changed) and shuffling around, they still seem to concentrate themselves much more than normal. It clearly is a bug. Good to know about the sandbox bug, thought it was odd how many low seemed to generate.

[Rathlord]

It's clearly how they work now. The zombie density in Sandbox is not functional. Things will improve when those variables are saved correctly.

[Jjoncm1]

It's clearly how they work now. The zombie density in Sandbox is not functional. Things will improve when those variables are saved correctly.

How is that "clearly" how they work? All zombies migrate towards the player now because they magically know he's in that house 3 miles away? Seems like a bug to me.

[Rathlord]

It's the Sadist AI Director that's intended to balance gameplay and keep you from being able to just sit in a house in the woods for 14 years without anything happening. You may not agree with it, and it may still need some balancing, but that does not a bug make.

 

I've been playing this game for almost 3 years now, and while I'm not always right, you can rest fairly assured that most of what I say is factual. I'm not trying to be rude- but I do know what I'm talking about. If you think it needs balancing, that's fine and you can feel free to discuss it (and we do, fairly commonly). Zombie behavior and density gets balanced on a weekly/monthly basis from community feedback.

 

I'm just trying to make clear that it's a balance issue, not bug.

[RoboMat]

 

It's clearly how they work now. The zombie density in Sandbox is not functional. Things will improve when those variables are saved correctly.

How is that "clearly" how they work? All zombies migrate towards the player now because they magically know he's in that house 3 miles away? Seems like a bug to me.

 

 

As in the other thread: You brought your report to our attention. What more do you want from us?

 

I still think it is the working of the SadisticAiDirector which is just a replacement system until the npcs are in the game - so it will surely change with or after the NPC-Update.

 

Edit: Ninja'd by Rathlord. Again. AGAIN.

[EnigmaGrey]

I'm just going to lock this thread for a few hours, as a preventative measure.

Fear not, Willow, it will return.

[EnigmaGrey]

Go to it, you crazy kids, with your "muzic" and "zombies"!

[DerHouy]

I can agree to the fact that very large hordes are spawning near your house after a while, without any event.

Dont let us all discuss why or in which way it happens, the fact is it isnt realistic or fun that you have a very large

horde or sometimes many hordes around your house after a night or after reloading your savegame.

 

And please moderators, i know you guys have much work and try hard to answer. But please know that people dont

want to hate or hesitate you guys or the game, we just all only want to share our experience with the game that you guys

know how people feel about some game related situations and happenings. or behaviour while playing the game

intensively.

 

 

Thanks and keep up the good work, love you Guys =)

[Swagger]

I suppose what we really want to know is if this is just intended behaviour (zombies just spawning or teleporting out of thin air) as a placement holder until the proper system is implemented or if this is untended behaviour.  Then I would know whether to spend time gathering evidence and documenting it or not or whether just to sit tight wait for the intended implementation

[willow512]

First let me clarify myself, I did not intend to start any conflicts or unfortunate interactions. So lets keep things civil and upbeat. I'm sure we can share our opinions and learn from each others positions without becoming emotional in the process. I'm certainly not trying to attack people, but I do wish to suggest avenues for improvement. I'm a java software developer myself, I know it sucks that you tend to only hear about the things that go wrong. But that's life and it's certainly not that we don't appreciate the hard work that goes into the project and community. I certainly do.

 

There's two positions here, RoboMat and Rathlord suggest this is normal if somewhat unbalanced behavior. And you should not be able to live 14 years in an isolated area. Jjoncm1 and me see the problems where large amounts of zombies seem to arrive invariably in any area you settle after only a few days.

 

I think the desired zombie behavior is that if you live in town you'll always have a higher density of zombies mulling about than if you settle on one of the farms. If you happen to pick an isolated area to live in then zombies would still show up somewhere between regularly and now and again depending on where you settle. They could be bunched up in groups I'd expect groups of 5 to 10 individuals at most in early game. Its' fun and something that is both dangerous but can be overcome.

 

The current behavior seems to be that no matter where you settle, invariably in a few days time you have a square block of at least 100 densely packed zombies parked outside. I'm pretty sure we all agree that that is not desired behavior. It's too much for no clear reason and the blocks just break realism. When it happens, (not if) you can't do much else than pack up and leave the area.

 

It's like they all decided, hey lets go to the isolated farm! And then brought everyone with them that they met. Just to stand outside, in formation and demonstrate for the "Not quite dead people are hungry and want to be fed" league. Scroll u to the original image, and imagine the banners.

 

The algorithm I suggested I hope to be a workable solution that will offer more interesting  more controllable and less randomly heavy handed zombie behavior and some performance improvements to boot! 

[Swagger]

There is a third position mate, mine  I feel its being missed.  I am reporting seeing zombies spawn/teleporting in huge numbers, like actually witness nothing being there, turn the camera, half a second later turn back and then seeing them there in large numbers, just standing there as if they haven't been disturbed. 

[RegularX]

There seems like a a lot of different factors here:

 

• Initial Zombie Density: Which after the last 9.17 changes felt pretty decent to me, there were still some hordes but they were scattered and mostly towards the center of the city.  There does seem to be the possibility of the occasional mega-horde (100+), but it is an improvement over 9.15 where there could be a horde down every street and corner. But as noted, this is something which has been, and probably will be, tweaked repeatedly.  Lots of different opinions here, so until it works in Sandbox correctly - probably never going to appease everyone.
• Zombie Migration: Which I think everyone agrees is work in progress in every sense of the word.  The goal is to keep the game a zombie survival game even for those who flee to the farms, but it also currently seems to result in hordes getting larger and slowly being pointed at the player.  From the sounds of it, it will be difficult to tell what is "intended" until the devs put NPC's back in the game (my assumption being that will give the zoms multiple targets to be directed towards)
• Zombie Teleportation: Which seems clearly a bug.  I've not seen the teleporting horde, but I have seen them teleport into a barricaded house and I've seen others report that on recent builds as well.  I'm not sure how much migration properly involves teleportation, it's possible that is something like the Director AI is trying move zoms from cell to cell and is incorrectly detecting if that trick would be visible to the player.  So even as a bug, it might be at the mercy of the other two.

[willow512]

There is a third position mate, mine  I feel its being missed.  I am reporting seeing zombies spawn/teleporting in huge numbers, like actually witness nothing being there, turn the camera, half a second later turn back and then seeing them there in large numbers, just standing there as if they haven't been disturbed. 

It's an important point. And while you're not completely forgotten (my original post contains "I even had a zombie spawn inside my fence once,") you're right I should have mentioned it, but you posted yours shortly before my last post, I didn't read it untill after posting.

 

Any solution should not teleport or spawn zombies near enough to the player that he can actually notice it happen.

[Rathlord]

Well, the Sadist AI bit is certainly a work in progress. When the meta game is realized fully we should see much more realistic spawning.

If you're seeing zombies appear in barricaded houses, it's likely due to a bug where they can no clip through walls after climbing a fence. This is a known bug and in the works.

As for the teleporting horde thing, we really don't have any evidence that it exists. We have a few reports from people who have trouble not including hyperbole in their bug reports, so it's hard to say. I personally don't believe there is a teleporting hordes bug, but if we got a video of it or something that'd be great.

[RegularX]

If you're seeing zombies appear in barricaded houses, it's likely due to a bug where they can no clip through walls after climbing a fence. This is a known bug and in the works.

 

 

Good to know, and yes - I think in both instances they were fenced houses.  Puts my mind to rest that it might have been Insomnia's even-more-Sadistic AI...

[willow512]

As for the teleporting horde thing, we really don't have any evidence that it exists. We have a few reports from people who have trouble not including hyperbole in their bug reports, so it's hard to say. I personally don't believe there is a teleporting hordes bug, but if we got a video of it or something that'd be great.

Not sure if it's the same thing, but it sounds like it could be. The image I placed in the original post pretty much shows a teleported horde because they didn't all walk there on their own. I needed to save and reload a game to actually make it happen. If you discard the save/reload it was an empty field and empty surroundings, going to bed, waking up, walking outside and then seeing the entire horde standing there. Not precisely the same as turning around, but it felt the same. Maybe those people who reported the teleporting horde didn't mention saving and reloading.

 

One thing that is certain though is that since they're standing in blocks, they didn't walk there. They were spawned there.

[RegularX]

 

As for the teleporting horde thing, we really don't have any evidence that it exists. We have a few reports from people who have trouble not including hyperbole in their bug reports, so it's hard to say. I personally don't believe there is a teleporting hordes bug, but if we got a video of it or something that'd be great.

...

 

One thing that is certain though is that since they're standing in blocks, they didn't walk there. They were spawned there.

 

 

Not necessarily.  Zombies always get placed back into a standing state after a load.

[willow512]

One thing that is certain though is that since they're standing in blocks, they didn't walk there. They were spawned there.

Not necessarily.  Zombies always get placed back into a standing state after a load.

The word to watch out here for is "blocks"!  

 

Zombies don't join geometric formations on their own. So if they stand in a perfect square then you're absolutely certain that they've spawned there. If you look at the picture in the original post you'll see a straight line on the bottom which is the remnants of the square block they spawned in. The top of the block is distorted because zombies had spotted me.

 

I'm sure you've seen similar square blocks of zombies whilst playing the game?