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Build 34 Discussion


f3rret

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I would love to see in the game along with upcoming food variables the healthy dose of food alergies. Like gluten intolerance or lactose intolerance.  That would make game so much harder and interesting at same time.   I love your work guys.  Now testing new 34 build . writing my carbs. Yeeeah

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Some of the calories will need to be relooked at when cooking.

 

I made a chicken x 2, cheese x 3, salmon x 1 (hunger 41) salad.

 

I went from 507 calories, -32, 38, 24.

to

to 717.   Only 200 calories for tons of cheese, chicken and salmon is way off.

 

An easy way to start would be to convert the previous hunger system into 100 gram worth of food for each 10 hunger it represented.

 

So back to my example:

I had

13 points of chicken

 

21 points of cheese and

7 points of salmon.

 

If we convert that to 130 gram of chicken leg (based on the icon):

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/poultry-products/717/2

301 calories

16.9 Lipid

33.8 Protein

 

210 gram of cheese (let's assume cheddar being in the States):

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/8/2

846 Calories

69.3 Lipid

2.1 Carb

52.5 Protein

 

 

70 gram of salmon we would have the following calorie intake:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4259/2

144.2 Calories

8.4 Lipid

15.4 Protein

 

Fro a whopping:

1291 Calories

94.6 Lipid

1 Carb

101.7 Protein.

 

You would fill extremely stuffed after eating something like that and with no clean carbs likely sleepy an hour or so after once digestion starts.

 

This would also be closer to the moodlet that goes from unfed to Very Well Fed

 

 

The above might seem like a lot but it isn't.  It would not even sustain an average character for one day while doing close to nothing.

 

At the current rest burn rate of 1584 calories per day and current value, doing nothing I would need to eat 8 of those babies.

 

In real life, that would be 10,328 calories.  Unless you are on Epic Meal Time you are not getting that much calories.

 

If you want to run 8 hours (say fitness instructor) the daily calorie would jump to 4992 calories (that part is OK) but you would need to eat, drum roll, 25 of those protein salads or 32,372 calories (or if you prefer 16 days worth of food for the average 2000 calories per day person taken for daily percentage of nutrient).

 

I will continue evaluating other items but right now and provide feedback.

 

I just need to know if you are OK with 100 gram being 10 hunger.

 

Or 100 gram per 0.1 weight for food (even if it is not 0.1 necessarily for other items)

 

An average restaurant portion of meat, poultry or fish in a restaurant would be about 200 gram (8 ounces) Canada.  

 

In the U.S. it would likely be 300-400 grams (portion are much bigger).

 

The hunger approach is easier (albeit less realistic, but, in my opinion, realistic enough) has it would be easier to code and incorporate to the current cooking system.

 

Chef would get more calories out of the produce.  Which makes sense, an inexperienced cook is likely to throw away good meat with the fat and bones when cutting poultry, fish, etc.   An experienced cook would also reuse the bone, fat to make sauce to go with the food (which can all be simulated in the greater hunger they currently get out of cooking skill).

 

Anyway if you let me know, I'm sure me and Obhal could come up with a list for you.

 

I will get it started and we can add to it.

 

I'm off tomorrow and will focus on that.  

 

I will actually do a spreadsheet with what the values would be if we go by hunger for weight and what the value would be if we go by weight for weight (again either assuming 100g per 10 hunger and 100g per .1).

 

This would be a starting point.  We should evolve to .1 weight has 100g for food products.

 

If you want me to use specific value let me know.

 

If you already have a spreadsheet with the list of the food items, weight, and hunger value, it would be quicker for me to put it together then finding it in the game.

 

I could look it up in the code, but I'm still not that familiar with the code base and haven't looked at the code since I upgraded to Windows 10.

 

If you don't have it Robert, I will do the research.

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7 hunger reduction doesn't mean 70g!

 

This was a hard part tho, searching for the right number...

So, one thing there: I based everything on existing thing, this doesn't mean a cheese is a big slice of cheese, same for chicken, it give lot of hunger reduction cause it's meat, but it doesn't mean it's a full chicken, imagine it as just some wing...

 

Chicken and Salmon are the meat with the less calories, here's the actual number (in items.txt)

 

Chicken:

Carbohydrates = 0,
Proteins = 18,
Lipids = 9,
Calories = 150,

 

Salmon:

Carbohydrates = 0,
Proteins = 39.28,
Lipids = 12.55,
Calories = 281,

 

Cheese:

Carbohydrates = 0.87,
Proteins = 6.4,
Lipids = 9.33,
Calories = 113,

 

From your input you haven't added the full items in your salads, so it seems rather normal to me.. Bit low yeah, I'll give it a test to be sure the code for evolved recipes is correct...

 

Maybe Obhal will have an answer, but a simple salad of some chicken, salmon and some cheese will not be high calories (my slice of cheese is only 113 calories), remember it's a salad and you have no sauce or whatsoever inside it!

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Nutritional Value

Now over to France for the latest on RJ’s plans for a full nutrition system to lie beneath your frantic chip over-eating survival habits.

“As you may know I’m working on the nutrition system, so what does it involve? Alongside my coding I’m doing a lot of research on how it all works, and how best to balance the system.”

“Right now I’m dealing with variables like Carbohydrates, Proteins, Lipids and Calories, although just how much will be directly shown to the player remains to be seen. The plan is, however, that if you only ever eat junk food (chips, soda, candy…) then you could start lacking protein or be taking in too many carbohydrates. Likewise it’ll cause issues if you’re only ever eating one or two varieties of fruit and vegetables from your garden.”

“Clearly none of this will kill you, but could add some bad effects for your character if you regularly survive for extended periods. Less endurance, loss of strength, getting more and more tired even after a good night of sleep… that sort of thing. We’re currently debating how all this will be conveyed to the player, but my own thought is that in real life it’s hard to tell if you’re lacking in something – so if you find yourself getting tired faster than usual then you should think about nutrition and maaaybe it’s time to go fishing or trapping to get some extra protein.”

“I’d also like to tie in the player’s mood a bit more tightly to the system – so endlessly eating the same stuff depresses you, and as with the rest of the game that impacts on timed actions. Likewise there’ll most likely be a Nutritionist profession. More on both in a later Mondoid perhaps!”

 

How will this work for modded foods? Will the Food type for example ...

        FoodType                =       Fish,

.. influence this or will there be more fields to fill in for foods?

 

Will foods no changed be considered "junk food"?

 

Also will foods like Ice Cream and Cupcakes finally rot?

 

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Are we going to get stressed again with the "mental health" overhaul? I remember smoking all the time in the early desura builds because my charactor always got stressed, I almost never see the moodle anymore. Shouldn't being panicked for prolonged periods of time make you stressed? Stressed should have debilitating effects as well.

And on the subject of mental health and "hygiene", I don't think the game needs a sims style hygiene system, but with soap, toothbrushes etc already in the game, I think we should be able to wash up with a bar of soap or brush our teeth with a toothbrush and toothpaste to give a boost to happiness equal to a comic book(and now books too) at a sink or water box/barrel at the cost of some water and durability on the soap/toothpaste.

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RJ wants the main build thread to be for stats, so let's use this one for discussing the build.

 

I don't want to try to overcomplicate things, but wouldn't it be a good idea to throw in a general "nutrients" variable to go along with carbs, lipids and proteins? The jar of vitamins would be an easy way to add "nutrients", and would give them more of a purpose. Spinach would be high-nutrient, and celery would be low-nutrient, for example.

 

Food and nutrition is such a complex thing, it will be interesting to see how this all works out.

 

 

Is build 34 going to have the new graphics?

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7 hunger reduction doesn't mean 70g!

 

This was a hard part tho, searching for the right number...

So, one thing there: I based everything on existing thing, this doesn't mean a cheese is a big slice of cheese, same for chicken, it give lot of hunger reduction cause it's meat, but it doesn't mean it's a full chicken, imagine it as just some wing...

 

Chicken and Salmon are the meat with the less calories, here's the actual number (in items.txt)

 

Chicken:

Carbohydrates = 0,

Proteins = 18,

Lipids = 9,

Calories = 150,

 

Salmon:

Carbohydrates = 0,

Proteins = 39.28,

Lipids = 12.55,

Calories = 281,

 

Cheese:

Carbohydrates = 0.87,

Proteins = 6.4,

Lipids = 9.33,

Calories = 113,

 

From your input you haven't added the full items in your salads, so it seems rather normal to me.. Bit low yeah, I'll give it a test to be sure the code for evolved recipes is correct...

 

Maybe Obhal will have an answer, but a simple salad of some chicken, salmon and some cheese will not be high calories (my slice of cheese is only 113 calories), remember it's a salad and you have no sauce or whatsoever inside it!

 

Just a few point of clarification:

 

The cheese was the cheese item, not the sliced cheese which I would expect to be Cheddar or Monterey Jack being in the US.

 

I personally think your food outtake is almost bang on (would change it based on body composition but other then that pretty good).

I think the intake, especially considering the food PZ weight, is off.

 

I am trying to compare against real life.   But my salad was a meat salad, not a vegetable salad.  Think the chicken/ham/egg salad that is used as sandwich filling.  With only using chicken, cheese and salmon that is what you would get.

 

For Salmon I am assuming you went with wild salmon based on the Protein to Fat ratio you used.  

Your value would be 1/2 filet, 198g, or a restaurant size portion.

 

There is a huge difference between farmed and wild Salmon and most of the Salmon in the states is farmed.  

There is a huge difference in calories between the two.

Today the vast majority of Salmon you buy is farmed not wild.  

It started picking up a lot in the States in 1980.   

http://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCommittees/CommitteesMeetingMaterials/VeterinaryMedicineAdvisoryCommittee/ucm222635.htm

 

Not sure what the exact situation was in 1993 but likely more farming than wild.

 

Wild:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4102/2

 

Farmed:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/finfish-and-shellfish-products/4258/2

 

For the Chicken I am assuming you went with the breast.  The leg is much more caloric.

Your caloric value is for 1/2 breast (87 g) or half a restaurant portion.

 

So for 0.3 PZ weight we have 200g of Salmon and for 0.3 PZ weight we have 87g of chicken.

 

I would bring them both to 300g.  Food will go a lot quicker with the new setting.  I would not change your outtake.  I think the focus of the tweaking needs to be on the intake and food weight.

 

For Salmon and Chicken, you could stick with the super lean meat (would explain why there is no fat zombies in PZ  (fedora)), you could go with a virtual chicken splitting 50/50.   The thing is if someone has 0.3 weight of chicken and 0.3 weight of salmon they would expect a bit more calories from the chicken if we are comparing the lean choices (breast and wild) and a bit more from the salmon if we are comparing the fat choices (leg and farmed).  In either case, they are really close to each other when you compare same weight and only getting half the nutrition from chicken is off. 

 

I'm still working on the cheese.

 

The watermelon gave me a whopping ~1355 calories for a PZ weight of 1.0.

 

Which is OK for a full 4,500g watermelon.

 

See how that is a problem.

 

Per 0.1 PZ weight we get 450g of watermelon

Per 0.1 PZ weight we get 67g of salmon

Per 0.1 PZ weight we get 29g of chicken.

 

I'm not arguing that PZ weight should be aligned between food and other items, it shouldn't, it's a virtual weight to simplify encumbrance and weight I get that and you need to take item usefulness into account.  But for food, it should still align to what make sense both for immersion and ease of comprehension from the part of the player.

 

It makes no sense that right now if I carry the same weight of chicken and watermelon I would get 450 calories from chicken and 1355 calories from watermelon.

 

 

Anyway I am playing the game to find the cheese to finish my salad argument.

 

I will focus on PZ weight for food comparison and suggestions on new caloric, lipid, carbs, protein values.

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Overeating and nausea.

 

There should be a limit to how much you can throw down your face.  I just ate 3000 calories worth of watermelon in 20 minutes.  In real life, I would be dead if I managed to eat 9kg (20 lbs) of watermelon in 20 minutes (folks don't try this at home) without pucking in between.  

 

Although this could make a new and innovative way of committing suicide in project zomboid, I am simply suggesting that you get sick if you overheat (more reason to use nausea and make player worried if it is from over eating or that scratch they just got  :twisted: ).

 

Certain level of nausea should cause you to vomit and either loose a percentage of calories you took (simpler code and ok for simulation) to loose everything you at in the last 3-4 hours (more realistic but more complex to code, would require keeping a table of food ate instead of just a straight variable).

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Maybe Obhal will have an answer, but a simple salad of some chicken, salmon and some cheese will not be high calories (my slice of cheese is only 113 calories), remember it's a salad and you have no sauce or whatsoever inside it!

 

A salad like the one you mention IRL would be around 280-300 calories

 

Assuming 100g lettuce, 50g salmon. 50g chicken, 30g cheese. 

 

Thing is, I'm super lost when it comes to the weight system in PZ, so I can't tell if these percentages would be accurate. The maths by vanorfeadiel with the in game weights show a monstruous salad with 210 grams of cheddar. I don't think the game recipee is trying to emulate that! :)

 

I think the exercise of setting the correct ration weights is must have here if the objective is to aim for some short of realism. The watermelon example is a great one. I'd like to see someone eating a full watermelon in 20 minutes :)

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It may be a bold suggestion and at this point I'm sure you guys have a lot on your heads but... don't you think that with this nutrition and phisical activity tracking system we could maybe reduce the amount of traits one can chose from when creating a character, and build some of the character traits based on the in game activity? I'm thinking in maybe 50/50 in terms of "natural born" skills and "adapted skills". 

 

The character creation still overwhelms me, and I always flavoured a real "evolution" of our avatars in the games. I like for example the GTA way of doing this, with hidden stats, so the first hours of driving it really feels you are newbie, and after a dozen you feel like a pro. 

 

Just a wild though... going back to testing now. 

Edited by Ohbal
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Robert I've extracted the food values from the code now.

 

I will make you a list of suggestions of change.  Again I will provide you with 100g worth of food using a PZ weight to 0.1.

 

I also suggest adding fiber.

 

The sensation of Fullness (hunger relief) is based mostly on fiber and protein.

 

I would do:  Protein * 5 + Fiber * 9 + Lipid + Carbs / x = hunger relief.  

Fiber is really 10 times since it also is in the Total Carbs number.

 

X would have to be played with.   I will make a suggestion once I find the different fullness range in the code.

The above relative ratio is just a starting point.

 

Ohbal I would like your input on that.

 

Ideally, Calories for most food item should be a function instead of a value (fewer data entry):

Lipid * 9 + Carbs * 4 + Protein * 4, except for alcoholic beverage (you need to take the grams of alcohol into account).

 

High Fat, Carbs food will not relieve hunger as much as Protein and Fiber.

Carbs and Lipid should be the main factor in Happiness and Boredom decrease.  More on hapinness later.

 

For example for cherries:

old value (for a single cherry):

    item Cherry
    {
        Type = Food,
        DisplayName = Cherry,
        Icon = Cherry,
        Weight = 0.3,
        HungerChange = -3,
        DaysFresh = 4,
        DaysTotallyRotten = 9,
        EvolvedRecipe       =       Cake:3,
        FoodType            =       Fruits,
        Carbohydrates = 1.31,
        Proteins = 0.09,
        Lipids = 0,
        Calories = 5,
    }
 
Suggested based new value (0.1 PZ weight + modification to existing item)
   item Cherry
    {
        Type = Food,
        DisplayName = Cherries,
        Icon = Cherry,
        Weight = 0.1,
        HungerChange  = -3,
        DaysFresh  = 4,
        DaysTotallyRotten  =   9,
        EvolvedRecipe       =       Cake:3,
        FoodType            =       Fruits,
        Carbohydrates = 16,
        Proteins = 1,
        Lipids = 0,
        Calories = 63,
        Fibers= 2,
    }
    {
        Type = Food,
        DisplayName = Cherries,
        Icon = Cherry,
        Weight = 0.3,
        HungerChange  = -3,
        DaysFresh  = 4,
        DaysTotallyRotten  =   9,
        EvolvedRecipe       =       Cake:3,
        FoodType            =       Fruits,
        Carbohydrates = 48,
        Proteins = 3,
        Lipids = 0,
        Calories = 189,
        Fibers=6,
    }

 

Finally, for all fresh produce, I would add variable quantity (say cherries, finding 0.1 to 0.3 worth of cherries randomly) instead of always the same quantity.  

 

Eating should also evolve to 0.05 increment worth of food (through a menu similar to watering for farming).  

 

Remaining nutritional value and weight would evolve as you eat part of it. 

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One last point of weight of food:

 

Food should really be using a similar conversion rate from real life weight to PZ weight.

 

For example: a watermelon in game with the current nutritional value would weight 4,5 kg or 4500 grams (or 9.9 pounds).

It currently weights 1 PZ Weight.

 

At the other extreme a cherry, which is a single cherry from the nutritional standpoint, would weight 8g (0.3 oz) and it currently weighs 0.3 PZ Weight. 

 

So for watermelon, we have 1 PZ = 4500 grams.

For cherries, we would have 1 PZ = 26.6 grams.

 

I am suggesting that for ease of adding food into the game and managing it, that for food and only for food.

 

1 PZ = 1 KG.

 

With the caveat that it will not necessarily be the same for other items (up to the developer's decision based on game balancing and taking encumbrance into account).

 

Weapon damage doesn't have to be overly precise, what percentage of players would be able to tell that you can damage the brain easier or not with an axe or a crowbar based on different wielder strength and skill.

 

No one really, the can have opinions.

 

Food on the other hand is something that more people are familiar with (likely not enough for our collective good but enough anyway).

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Robert at this stage are you focusing purely on the Nutritional value of food and not the Happiness side of it?

 

I hope so since I have suggestions on both fronts but will focus on the Nutritional side of things for now.

 

I'm sorry for all these posts but I love Project Zomboid (as my steam 1548 hours would attest to, not counting time from Desura) and I want to help it evolve to the best game it can be. 

 

The nutritional system and the mental health system are the two systems (beside NPC Emotional AI) that I am interested in.

 

I happen to have a bit more time than usual this week so I can also contribute more than usual.

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I also suggest adding fiber.

 

The sensation of Fullness (hunger relief) is based mostly on fiber and protein.

 

I would do:  Protein * 5 + Fiber * 9 + Lipid + Carbs / x = hunger relief.  

Fiber is really 10 times since it also is in the Total Carbs number.

 

X would have to be played with.   I will make a suggestion once I find the different fullness range in the code.

The above relative ratio is just a starting point.

 

Ohbal I would like your input on that.

 

Well, I agree from a nutritional perspective but I already feel the system in game may feel too complex, so I'd tend to look for ways to simplify it rather than making it even deeper. 

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Simplest hunger approach is each x number of calories boost your hunger level.

 

If you try to eat more after being well fed the game would prevent you.

 

So base on Roberts range of -3,500 to 4,000 we could have:

 

Starving: -3,500 (Health Loss)

Very Hungry:  -2,000

Hungry: -1,000

Peckish: 400 (positive but to give an earlier warning to player)

Slightly Fed: 1000

Fed: 1750 

Well Fed: 2500

Very Well Fed: 3250+

 

The feeding above would work well for carrying capacity and satisfaction of hunger.

 

For healing, I would use the protein count has the variable to determine if you have slower or quicker healing time (not completely accurate but keeping it simple).

 

I've added a post on suggested nutritional value and PZ weight item change here:

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/18133-new-sugested-nutritional-values-for-build-34/

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I must compliment you all for your willingness, I have to say at first. And I welcome the fact that the next build will deal with the food system. Although in my oppinion, it looks like you are going to go beyond the necessary, a bit.

The main problem is:

Players do not care about feeding themselves in a unhealthy style. But that's not the real problem. The real problem is, that a whole profession and one or two of our skills seems to become useless because of that. Who needs cooking, if he can raise strawberrys and survive because of them beeing food and raising the mood? Is it even necessary to cook OR farm if you can go to town and scavenge some conserves or even chips?

So, the question is now, how to deal with that problem.

1.) You could remove the availability of conserves.

2.) You could make it harder to farm.

Since there would be a lot of conserves (in a real apocalypse case) and farming is already quite unrewarding (from a fun having point), I wouldn't recommend both methods.
3.) You could do it your way. By making the nurturing system more complex (and realistic).
4.) You could use the secondary system (mood) to force the players to keep a good diet.

 

Regarding 3.):
It would work for sure. But in my honest oppinion, I am not sure if it really will improve our game experience so much, in review of the time which will be necessary to make it work. I would really rather like you guys, to make us more recipes for cooking and to give us some recipes with strawberrys and radishes (which are quite useless at the moment). I really love the work you did for us with this awesome cool game. But there is still a lot of work to do.
Use the time wisely. With all respect. (Maybe I'm wrong. I'm trying to be realistic and not too pessimistic.)

 

Regarding 4.):
Good cooked meals give you some bonus to your mood (against sadness and depression). How about giving a negative bonus (malus ?) to the players if they keep repeating to eat the same stuff over and over? So, if I cook a soup with, let's say carrots and eat it, it may give me -15 sadness etc. the first time. Ten times later (the same meal) I get -10, maybe 20 times later, i may even become sad because of it.
The game would simply need to take care of what ingredients you ate, let's say the last 7 days. If they repeat, the meals cooked with them would get a malus furthermore. If they were not eaten the last 7 days they would "regenerate".
In this way, we would not need to create another whole system (calories, lipids, etc...) because we could use an existing one.

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I know, but that would make the case of the 15" long x 7 1/2 " diameter melon weighing 4.5 Kilo in real life even worse when you compare it against a single 8g cherry and them weighing 1.0 and 0.3 respectively.

 

I also agree that not all items should be 1 PZ = 1 KG, just food to facilitate the introduction of new food.   Unless you are dealing with extremely dense food or light food (say rice crackers on the light side).  

 

But honestly trying to include volume for food, on top of nutrition, is an unnecessary level of complexity on the Dev side to do the appropriate research and conversion.  

 

Sticking with pure weight and the associated nutritional value would make it a lot easier and not break the game in my opinion.

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Have to remember that weight in Project Zomboid is some weird hybrid of "encumberance" and "weight," rather than an actual unit of measure (in line with games like Fallout 1).

 

I'd suggest rather than having individual berries or cherries, that they simply be renamed "handful of X", and allow the player eat portions of them.

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Just to make sure I am clear I am not advocating for individual cherries in the game.

 

All I am saying is that when you currently eat all of a cherry, weighting 0.3 in the game, you currently only get 8 calories which is equal to one cherry.

 

I'm advocating the same thing for a bunch of cherries (100g) weighting 0.1.

 

I would reuse the watering menu from farming, modify it for food and allow players to eat in 0.05 of weight increment (instead of current 1/4th, 1/2 or all).

 

Although the picture of only eating 1/4 of a single cherry is funny.

 

The dev can create a fictitious system with calories, carbs, lipid, protein that is incoherent between itself (as it is right now by looking at the watermelon <-> cherry scale and a lot of other items: chicken, salmon).

 

I mean a lettuce only weight 0.2 PZ, which to be honest isn't enough when you consider both the size and volume of a full size of lettuce, which is what the current 54 calories entails.

 

It would be a full head as detailed here:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2477/2

 

The Bell Pepper at 0.2 is the same volume and weight as the lettuce. In real life, it isn't.

 

Again it sorta worked in the previous hunger system but not as much when you go with calories and macronutrients.

 

It's not that hard to implement more proportional values in the game without breaking it and I will give the information to Indie Stones to do it.

 

What they do with it, is up to them.

 

I'm not going to stop playing if they don't, I just think it would be a better game if they do.  

 

Of course that is only my opinion.

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There are ways you can make the game more challenging AND realistic AND have this tied to the new food system:

 

 

Whatever happens, you should be required to have a higher caloric intake than your base needs in order to gain strength.

 

It's practically impossible in reality to gain muscle without gaining fat, meaning having more calories than necessary. Obviously, higher protein is necessary, but besides that a lack of caloric surplus basically prevents the body from adding lean muscle mass.

 

So strength increase should be tied both to activity AND caloric/protein intake being above "normal".

 

 

Also, activity (like sprinting/swinging) should increase caloric needs (and of course these activities are needed for a strength increase as well). So if you were sprinting/swinging all day, maybe double the caloric needs, then work back from that to see how much a single swing/sprint would add.

 

Also, a caloric deficit should reduce strength over time, as the body consumes muscle mass to maintain itself

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