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Sandbox option: more realistic zombie/human ecosystem


hrot

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I like Project Zomboid but in general zombie spawning/movements around the map etc is something

that i strongly dislike not because of difficulty but it's more immersion thing for me.

 

So i thought it would be nice to have sandbox option to make some kind of zombie ecosystem with strict number of zombies at the start of the game with their locations (randomized locations but with some reasoning of course).

Then as game progresses new zombies would only spawn at the edges of map but with logical reasons like it would be in "real life" scenario.

So at the start there are zombies in map already and then over time game try to simulate migrations of zombies from other regions (so zombies spawn at the edges of map).

 

Possible logic of this migrations could be taken from books that creators of game are inspired by.

 

 

Some possible general rules of spawning zombies at edges of map:

 

-Zombies will prefer easy paths without many obstacles so they would prefer roads over going through forest.

So higher chance of spawning on edges of map with roads than edges with forest.

 

-Zombies from other more populated regions would travel to less populated regions over time.

 

Example of this: Zombies in Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Lexington would eventually move out of city to less populated regions like Muldraugh and West Point.

In larger scale zombies in Northeast Megalopolis would migrate more and more inside of country going eventually to regions playable in game.

 

-Over time numbers of zombies coming from those more populated areas would increase.

At start of the game not many zombies would spawn, only single zombies that would be on big roads.

After some time when most people in higher populated regions got overrun by too many zombies, zombies would spawn moreand in more organized groups.

 

-If zombies don't have anything to get attracted to something on map they would just travel from one edge of map to other in search of human activity.

Example:

Very big herd of zombies going through one side of map to other through centre of cities in map destroying any npcs and players if they create enough noise to be detected but if player have base in deep forest they would just ignore him completly and they would just leave map after their rampage.

 

-Wanderer type of zombies spawning at pretty much random edges staying on map for much logner time than herds going from 1 side of map to other and then exiting map but still with possiblity of exiting map after after long time.

 

Other changes would include no magnet for zombies that player have now, so no magic spawning of zombies around the player to keep him in check.

Zombie behaviour would be same with npc activity and player activity.

That means no "director" in game to keep things interesting and constantly try to screw over player.

Events (like flying helicopters etc) happening in game would be just randomized and not targeting player over and over again.

 

It could be split into various options like:

- disable "director"

-enable realistic spawning of zombies

- others?

 

Yes it would probably make game easier in some ways (It's not by any means just telling you to add option "easy mode" because that's already in sandbox options) but immersion would be overall much better and some players (like me) would greatly appreciate this option to play the game in  the way they want.

 

 

Feel free to discuss and give me some reasonable critique if needed.

I would really appreciate it.

 

Much love to all people working on game :)

 

 

 

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I think in an ideal world your suggestions are awesome!

 

However, I believe from what I have read, that they did not implement a system like this because of the demands on people's PCs. As I understand it, the issue is that it is very demanding for our rigs to monitor the location and movement of every single zombie (there are thousands!)This is why zombies are only loaded into the game when a map chunk is loaded. The zombies are not persistent on the map (other things like fire act in the same manner). Because of this, it isn't possible to have the type of system you are describing. Maybe higher end rigs could handle it, but lower end rigs would suffer. It would also create a ton more lag on servers since a lot more data packets would be required to be sent constantly updating the location of every single zombie. Lag is terrible in a game that can kill you with one hit. This is also, as I understand it, one of the major road blocks (no pun intended) in implementing vehicles. They have working vehicles already, but its a map loading/streaming issue that is holding them back.

 

Don't get me wrong, your ideas are awesome and would be super realistic and cool to see implemented.

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I know that it impossible to have all that stuff in a way you think but it's quite possible to have that system anyway because it's not needed to create zombies outside of that small square that player is in.

I just want to change how zombie spawning is working.

 

From code point of view it would work same way like now just  with different rules.

So you go to unexplored "square" (or whatever it's called by developers i have no idea) and then zombies "really" spawns in game but it would be on different rules i mentioned in my first post.

 

So let's see extreme, unrealstic example:

 

Player somehow killed every zombie in map in 1 day.

After that zombies would only spawn at edges of the map. What's that mean from "code" point of view?

Player would only encounter zombies if he would enter one of edges "squares" of the map.

Then as the time goes by spawning chance in more ceneteric squares of map would increase etc

 

It's of course simple 1 example how it would work but in reality this system would be more complicated.

In the end it would work in same way like right now just with more complicated rules which would try to simulate realistic system which i suggested.

 

So your argumment is not really something relevent.

 

The problem is it would still be very much work to code all the rules etc for just a "sandbox" option when there are so many things still needed to be done like npcs, vehicles etc.

Anyway i would like to see opinion on my suggestion from some creators of game.

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I was thinking about this as well while i was watching Eckymans playthrough, and i think it is a good idea. From what i have seen though from how the current model of zombie spawn and such its not very practical. I think one way to implement it in the current system would be to have a random chance generator at map edges and a value check. and another check to see if the player is in the square

 

once the random chance indicator is met and the character check returns false, the value goes from false to true in that square.

the checker will check if the value is true or false,

 

if false then it returns continues the chance generator loop,

if true

-the random chance generator stops

-the square is given random populaton of zombie horde as a value and a random direction of travel.

-destination square generated and given value 0

-after x time, value in square 1 goes to 0 and value in square in the direction of travel gets previous value.

--if destination square value equal > 0

----all values reset and return to loop

 

if character is in an adjacent square or a few squares away is true

-physical generation of zombies

--if character is near zombies

----timer to next square population value stops

-------if character leaves area

----------timer to next square resumes

-if square value goes to 0

----zombies erased.

----value for next square = previous square - random generation an order of magnitude smaller.

 

though obviously not a complete snippet of code, something in this manner would prevent persistent lag for lower end pcs, but it would cause a large lag spite once adjacent to the horde as it generates them. Despite that though, I would greatly enjoy something like that.

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So your argumment is not really something relevent.

 

My point is perfectly relevant since I am discussing practical limitations to your idea. Again in a perfect world where data packets can be sent perfectly without latency and a PCs computing power isn't factored in, your idea sounds great.

There are very good, logical reasons why we have the system that we have now. Also there are a host of additional features in the works that will tie up even more data packets in MP and processing power for both SP and MP. Vehicles driving around along with NPCs are going to push the latency issues to their limits. One bite due to lag can easily cause a lot f rage quitting.

Again I like the idea of what you suggested, and I am not a dev at TIS, so maybe they can figure something out.

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Hmm i think you still don't understand it's not needed to have simulate zombie movements on all map like it happens in small square areound the player.

I don't want to sound rude but i mentioned it in my first response to you so i will just repeat in other words what i already said. My idea and idea how to implement that has nothing to do with what you are talking about.

It's just about changing some rules to spawning zombies to make it more realistic because now it's only for making game harder and ignoring realism completly in my opinion.

 

Example: You make base in x place, clear it out. Then after 1 day zombies already spawn around your base then you go to other unexplored places and zombies are there too, then you clear that place then zombies after 1 day already spawn there.

 

I would like some changes to this system so it would be more realstic.

So there is no problem with that "pc couldn't handle it".

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Then as game progresses new zombies would only spawn at the edges of map but with logical reasons like it would be in "real life" scenario.

So at the start there are zombies in map already and then over time game try to simulate migrations of zombies from other regions (so zombies spawn at the edges of map).

 

Some possible general rules of spawning zombies at edges of map:

 

-Zombies will prefer easy paths without many obstacles so they would prefer roads over going through forest.

So higher chance of spawning on edges of map with roads than edges with forest.

 

-Zombies from other more populated regions would travel to less populated regions over time.

 

-If zombies don't have anything to get attracted to something on map they would just travel from one edge of map to other in search of human activity.

Example:

Very big herd of zombies going through one side of map to other through centre of cities in map destroying any npcs and players if they create enough noise to be detected but if player have base in deep forest they would just ignore him completly and they would just leave map after their rampage.

 

-Wanderer type of zombies spawning at pretty much random edges staying on map for much logner time than herds going from 1 side of map to other and then exiting map but still with possiblity of exiting map after after long time.

 

 

Again I like your ideas and I am also not trying to be rude here, but perhaps it was all of your comments about spawning zombies at the edges of the map, migrating across the map, and path-finding there way across the map that threw me off of what you were getting at. To my understanding this would be very taxing on our PC's. I may have misinterpreted what you meant by spawning. To me that means creating a persistent zombie on the map.

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The meta game already does most of this. You can expect your neighbors from the city to move into West Point and Muldraugh within two months.

 

Unfortunately no, that's not what game does now. Now it's just spawn mindlessly zombies when you cleared some area or even when you didn't and that's all. You kill zombies in 1 square, game spawns more and then more and more and more. More killing zombies = more zombie spawning, more time passing = more zombies and that's general rules from what i have seen in game. For me it's kinda boring and stupid and it destroy immersion. I would like more rules to zombie spawnings which would take into account some realism and overall would try to imitate realistic zombie movements/ecosystem.

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The meta game already does most of this. You can expect your neighbors from the city to move into West Point and Muldraugh within two months.

 

Unfortunately no, that's not what game does now. Now it's just spawn mindlessly zombies when you cleared some area or even when you didn't and that's all. You kill zombies in 1 square, game spawns more and then more and more and more. More killing zombies = more zombie spawning, more time passing = more zombies and that's general rules from what i have seen in game. For me it's kinda boring and stupid and it destroy immersion. I would like more rules to zombie spawnings which would take into account some realism and overall would try to imitate realistic zombie movements/ecosystem.

 

In another thread like this, I suggested that the issue was solved by using sandbox mode. You can turn off zombie spawning, you can change the amount of spawning, you can even control their migration and grouping patterns. The zombie's don't mindlessly spawn, they're set with specific values that you have every right to control if you please.

 

Survival is meant to be hard. It is meant to see how long you can survive in the hostile situation. If the z's don't pile up to a breaking point then the game becomes "how long can you play this game without getting bored/dying from falling off a building".

 

Personally I think if I had a rig that could handle pinpointing a million or so z's on a map and give them specific migration patterns based on sight/smell/sound and maybe a bit of rnging, I would be playing this game 24/7. It simply isn't feasible for a small development team to create a game which exceeds the mean audience's ability to play it though.

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Eh.. Another person who didn't read post or anything i wrote in this topic. I don't want to change survival mode and it's not about game being too hard for me etc. I just want option in sandbox which is stated in title of this topic.

Now game is close to somethning like Zombie Shooter when game just spawn and throw zombies at you and it doesn't have anything with basic realism.and game doesn't care how much you try to hide etc because zombies will always come to your doors regardless what you do.

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Eh.. Another person who didn't read post or anything i wrote in this topic. I don't want to change survival mode and it's not about game being too hard for me etc. I just want option in sandbox which is stated in title of this topic.

Now game is close to somethning like Zombie Shooter when game just spawn and throw zombies at you and it doesn't have anything with basic realism.and game doesn't care how much you try to hide etc because zombies will always come to your doors regardless what you do.

 

The devs have expressed many times on the forums, that there is no code that causes zombies to home in on the player. They arrive because they are attracted to something. Meta events may have them migrating past your base, they hear you sprinting (or whatever) in your base, and they head towards that source of stimulation. Unless the devs are lying to us, there is a reason they keep showing up at your base other than your presence. Your activities within your base are what's attracting them.

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Eh.. Another person who didn't read post or anything i wrote in this topic. I don't want to change survival mode and it's not about game being too hard for me etc. I just want option in sandbox which is stated in title of this topic.

Now game is close to somethning like Zombie Shooter when game just spawn and throw zombies at you and it doesn't have anything with basic realism.and game doesn't care how much you try to hide etc because zombies will always come to your doors regardless what you do.

 

There are sandbox options to "fix" the issues that you have mentioned. Now there is even a sandbox option to make z's stop thumping randomly, I think currently in the IWBUMS section.

 

You are not being very pleasant by simply disregarding people who do not agree with you by saying they don't understand you or claiming they did not read the thread.

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  • 1 month later...

I really like this idea

 

The zombies just spawning in clusters around an area... I dunno what it is, but it feels artificial. It reminds me that this is a game. I clear my base, and they are back in the area.  So basically, any time I want to go anywhere. I have to go outside, fire my shotgun once. Just wait 10 seconds for the horde to come from every direction instead of one direction, but they do mostly come from an urban direction, murder them or lead them away and then I get free reign for a couple minutes. There is never any... fluid struggle.. I wouldn't say progression.. more like lines on a battlefield to keep the hordes away. 

 

*Idea*

I am not a programmer. I am not a coder. I am just an idea man. I don't even have a birds eye view. I can only say what I have experienced.. So here is what I wonder..

 

Is there a way to "convert" the zombies that are not onto the loaded grid into datapoints on a map?. Only load them graphically when in the grid, but when outside the grid keep the zombies and any future NPCs as just dots on a map, just the most minuscule piece of information.

 

Then that map, all it does is keep track of the little dots and sounds the dots hear (Which really just grabs all dots in a radius around the sound ping and slowly draws them towards it. Or even instantly, but the sound pings would be less often) The sounds would spread the dots out randomly. Also it would allow sound to travel a lot further.There can be a settings adjustment and "Recommended" setting for how many sound variables there are at any given time to help people's computers. (Even a recommended max incoming zombie).

 

Also to save computer power, the closest grids can be sorted by individual zombie, but further grids out can be just compressed. just a number or group of numbers, put in like 20-100 zombie blocks which then get sorted and unsorted based on how close the player is to that particular grid. 

 

Then since the map is based on a real location. Choose the spawning areas as like. Louiville and Fort Knox to start, then more from NE as Cincinnati empties out. Then from the south from like Nashville after a set number of months. Then from everywhere after like a year. I think it would add difficulty depending on where you go also. This setup causing more zombies to be closer to populated areas. So Valley Station would be constantly overrun from the influx but as you moved out the zombies there would just depend on your activity and the influx from other areas. 

 

The question then becomes, what about zombies in buildings. Well.. if a zombie dot would load into a building. then it is checked against the spawning rules, if the place is closed off with player structures, the zombie is loaded at the closest unblocked location when the grid is loaded graphically. If a location has multiple floors, it follows the same rules for blocking, but if unblocked then a random small percentage spawn upstairs. And if to many zombies spawn inside a building then a set variable, then random doors and windows will be automatically busted out to show the zombies forcing their way in... probably to eat someone. (And just for giggles, in that instance one of the zombies can be auto classified as a former survivor and maybe has some extra loot on them from scavenging)

 

I drew out my idea on paper.. and umm.. it would lead to some truly scary size hordes.. LOL, like the mall scene in the new Dawn of the Dead

Edited by Slice985
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