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Can we get a new aiming system?

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Please tell me this new aiming system is a placeholder? I know it was designed for singleplayer but in multiplayer it is notoriously bad. If you ever played a pvp server with guns especially ormnts gun mod. I Kinda enjoyed the old system to an extent but would really like to get some verification that this isnt final. And maybe if i could have accsess to previous versions of the game with the old aiming system so i could have it modded.

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Aiming system is still as it was originally: directional.

Maybe it will be changed one day; a combat overhall is planned at some point, but this does "just work."

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I would prefer if i could pick which targets in that direction i could hit. The snaplock thing seems almost random with what target gets picked. Ive had it shoot a zombie to the right of me while i had one right in front of me. It just seems random

Edit: Just having a line or something to show where the bullet will go would be all i want. Having some choice in the matter rather then rng.

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rng is part and parcel of isometric RPG-s games. Just representing it with a straight line wouldn't mean you'd hit. *Shrug*

If you want, add -Ddebug to the bat file and you can see the area in which a gun can hit something.

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I would prefer if i could pick which targets in that direction i could hit. The snaplock thing seems almost random with what target gets picked. Ive had it shoot a zombie to the right of me while i had one right in front of me. It just seems random

Edit: Just having a line or something to show where the bullet will go would be all i want. Having some choice in the matter rather then rng.

 

Honestly, I agree. It's really bad, and with the skills and traits overhaul, every gun but the shotgun was made even more useless. Guns don't aim properly and you can't have skill with it. It's all based on your character's traits, levels, current moodles and whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot..

 

So you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill, while attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot. In this game, guns are a useless piece of junk...

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I would prefer if i could pick which targets in that direction i could hit. The snaplock thing seems almost random with what target gets picked. Ive had it shoot a zombie to the right of me while i had one right in front of me. It just seems random

Edit: Just having a line or something to show where the bullet will go would be all i want. Having some choice in the matter rather then rng.

 

Honestly, I agree. It's really bad, and with the skills and traits overhaul, every gun but the shotgun was made even more useless. Guns don't aim properly and you can't have skill with it. It's all based on your character's traits, levels, current moodles and whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot..

We're using guns to deadly effect on Zeek's Haven, Redboid, and SpiffoSpace. :-|

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I would prefer if i could pick which targets in that direction i could hit. The snaplock thing seems almost random with what target gets picked. Ive had it shoot a zombie to the right of me while i had one right in front of me. It just seems random

Edit: Just having a line or something to show where the bullet will go would be all i want. Having some choice in the matter rather then rng.

 

Honestly, I agree. It's really bad, and with the skills and traits overhaul, every gun but the shotgun was made even more useless. Guns don't aim properly and you can't have skill with it. It's all based on your character's traits, levels, current moodles and whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot..

 

We're using guns to deadly effect on Zeek's Haven, Redboid, and SpiffoSpace. :-|

 

 

Admins are, sure, but look at this edit "So you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill, while attracting 1 - 50 + zombies per shot. In this game, guns are a useless piece of junk..." Gotta be honest, it's impractical 70% of the time no matter how you look at it. 30% would be if you're an admin, are sitting behind a shop counter shooting zombies, and other circumstances like that where you are almost completely untouchable.

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Im fine with the rng of the aiming skill i meant i dont like the rng of what target it picks. I want a line or any indicator of what target is going to be hit then let the rng take over. So i can strategically kill zombies or players. I play on zeeks and me and the admins talk about this all the time how ridiculous the aiming system is with assualt rifles and such. Just turn in the general direction and everythings dead. This affects mods more then singleplayer but still Even in vannilla mp I woukd want to use a hunting rifle at long range to kill the zombies attacking my friend but instead it shoots the one comepletely opposite of him doing nothing to help him.

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Admins are, sure, but look at this edit "So you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill, while attracting 1 - 50 + zombies per shot. In this game, guns are a useless piece of junk..." Gotta be honest, it's impractical 70% of the time no matter how you look at it. 30% would be if you're an admin, are sitting behind a shop counter shooting zombies, and other circumstances like that where you are almost completely untouchable.

No . . . normal users seem to be doing just fine.

And it's only 1/5 with everything stacked against you and a pistol. :/

Using them to move zombies, not just kill them or other players, is very, very useful.

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Maybe just having a small bullseye as a cursor when aiming a gun so you can tell which zombie you are aiming at?

 

Placing the cursor [bullseye] on top of a zombie wont mean that you will hit him, but it means you are aiming/shooting at him.

 

This would work for the hunting rifle for long distances.

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Maybe just having a small bullseye as a cursor when aiming a gun so you can tell which zombie you are aiming at?

Placing the cursor [bullseye] on top of a zombie wont mean that you will hit him, but it means you are aiming/shooting at him.

This would work for the hunting rifle for long distances.

I would love this.

Edit: Would make vertical aiming better as well since if anyone has ever tried aiming on a roof or 2nd story building ingame youd know its buggy as all hell. Sometimes youll hit all the zombies out of your line of sight or in impossible to aim locations and ignore all the ones directly infront of you. Ive tested this a ton trying to find some sort of pattern to the aiming system but especially on elevated locations is it apparent. Tested ontop of the hardware store that little roof there you can get onto from the window.

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I remember the old youtube video from lemmy with new aiming system. the video now is hidden or deleted and system wasnt implemented.

It was really cool and i hope they implement it one day.

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If we could have a percentage displayed next to the zombie we targetted thatd definetly go with the whole rpg vibe and wouldnhelp us decide if its worth it to take the shot or not. Could have it toggleable for casuals or hardcore who dont want it.

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I remember the old youtube video from lemmy with new aiming system. the video now is hidden or deleted and system wasnt implemented.

It was really cool and i hope they implement it one day.

It had an aiming reticle that shrunk when charging, but was still directional if I remember.

An effective placebo?

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I kind of agree here, just highlight the zombie you'll shoot with a percertange of chances to hit would be very very great, It's not even a complete overhaul of the system, just an upgrade.

 

(Furrs will win :D)

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I remember the old youtube video from lemmy with new aiming system. the video now is hidden or deleted and system wasnt implemented.

It was really cool and i hope they implement it one day.

It had an aiming reticle that shrunk when charging, but was still directional if I remember.

An effective placebo?

yea probably but you knew who your aiming at and if you have to "aim" more or you can just shoot.

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I remember the old youtube video from lemmy with new aiming system. the video now is hidden or deleted and system wasnt implemented.

It was really cool and i hope they implement it one day.

It had an aiming reticle that shrunk when charging, but was still directional if I remember.

An effective placebo?

yea probably but you knew who your aiming at and if you have to "aim" more or you can just shoot.

*Places mouse over zombie's head, counts to three, presses mouse button. Maybe hits, maybe doesn't, maybe hits a zombie nearer or futher than the target*

To me, I see no difference, but I understand why some people feel the for need visual feedback with this kind of system. Personally, I prefer having the mechanics obscured. There are not magic crosshairs in real life that spread out and collapse as your chance to hit increases, or a counter. Relying on some trial and error on the player's part seems like a good way to go about it.

That doesn't mean I like the current 30+ degree spread of the shotgun, though.

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I remember the old youtube video from lemmy with new aiming system. the video now is hidden or deleted and system wasnt implemented.

It was really cool and i hope they implement it one day.

It had an aiming reticle that shrunk when charging, but was still directional if I remember.

An effective placebo?

 

yea probably but you knew who your aiming at and if you have to "aim" more or you can just shoot.

 

*Places mouse over zombie's head, counts to three, presses mouse button. Maybe hits, maybe doesn't, maybe hits a zombie nearer or futher than the target*

To me, I see no difference, but I understand why some people feel the for need visual feedback with this kind of system. Personally, I prefer having the mechanics obscured. There are not magic crosshairs in real life that spread out and collapse as your chance to hit increases, or a counter. Relying on some trial and error on the player's part seems like a good way to go about it.

That doesn't mean I like the current 30+ degree spread of the shotgun, though.

 

Yeah i think that most people would like a visual feedback, also like you said there are no magic crosshairs in realife but there are iron sights which just helps you focus.

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[... how ridiculous the aiming system is with assualt rifles and such. Just turn in the general direction and everythings dead. This affects mods more then singleplayer [...]

I don't think the targeting system was designed with assault-rifles in mind, as it will continuously select new targets and wreck everything... Though I'd argue that that's an issue with the mods that add such weapons rather than the targeting system itself. A near-term compromise could be to reduce the hit-chance of such weapons and cap it well below 1.0 - it wouldn't be a reflection of real-life by any means, but it would compensate for spray-to-win by increasing ammo consumption, somewhat...

I would prefer if i could pick which targets in that direction i could hit. The snaplock thing seems almost random with what target gets picked. Ive had it shoot a zombie to the right of me while i had one right in front of me. It just seems random

Edit: Just having a line or something to show where the bullet will go would be all i want. Having some choice in the matter rather then rng.

 

[...] Guns don't aim properly and you can't have skill with it. It's all based on your character's traits, levels, current moodles and whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot.. 

So you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill, while attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot. In this game, guns are a useless piece of junk...

That is entirely the point of a roleplaying game, is it not? It seems entirely rational to me that your performance with a firearm is determined by your character's abilities and status. PZ is not intended to be an action/shooter game, it would seem counter-intuitive to base the majority of gameplay on your character's skills and experience and then assert "but firearm performance is based on how well you personally handle your keyboard and mouse."

"Whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot" is directly representative of your character's ability to handle firearms, and the RNG accounts for real-world variables that aren't programmed into the game (wind direction, firing into sunlight/other visual obstructions, the variance between firing a cold weapon vs. one that has unloaded several rounds, etc.).

Ultimately, there is skill involved that is delegated to player responsibility - it's not direct weapon handling, but rather in weapon selection and application (like many other elements of RPG games). Don't expect to rack up kills with a hunting rifle if your character's background dictates they're entirely inexperienced with firearms. If you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill while attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot, you failed to apply the requisite player skill by choosing a bad weapon for your character's skill level, and then again by discharging that firearm in such a dire situation (though attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot can also be a massive advantage and aide you many times more than actually killing any zombie would, if applied skillfully).

If we could have a percentage displayed next to the zombie we targetted thatd definetly go with the whole rpg vibe and wouldnhelp us decide if its worth it to take the shot or not. Could have it toggleable for casuals or hardcore who dont want it.

I think this would ruin the RPG vibe. Maybe not at higher firearm skill-levels, but there's no way a character who just picked up their first firearm yesterday could accurately assess their chances of hitting a target. In striving to maintain the roleplaying aspect of PZ, you could apply a percentage RNG to the estimated hit chance, perhaps, and increase the accuracy of the hit-chance estimate as character skill improves... but otherwise I feel it would convey information that your character couldn't possibly "know".

Maybe just having a small bullseye as a cursor when aiming a gun so you can tell which zombie you are aiming at?

 

Placing the cursor [bullseye] on top of a zombie wont mean that you will hit him, but it means you are aiming/shooting at him.

 

This would work for the hunting rifle for long distances.

I don't see how this is any different from the current system - if you place your cursor on a zombie you are aiming at it. Doesn't mean you'll hit it, but you're firing in it's direction. This already works for every firearm at every distance... Of course, they always miss if you're firing a weapon beyond it's maximum distance - but how would someone picking up a shotgun for the first time know the maximum distance of a weapon through anything other than trial and error or book-knowledge?

If you want, add -Ddebug to the bat file and you can see the area in which a gun can hit something.

If anyone wants to quickly gain knowledge about which weapon to use in what circumstance without all the trial and error, do this, for now - it gives you a nice visualization of weapon range and arc as it corresponds to your character's current skill level, so you can also visualize how they change as a character's skills improve. It also has a nice target-selection visualization; in my experience closer targets within the weapon's min/max range span seem to take priority over more distant ones or those outside of it.

You can also read the weapon definitions, which will additionally give you an idea of relative hit chances and how they improve with skill gains, which is probably the primary statistic for selecting an appropriate weapon.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be an easier way to absorb this knowledge, but in my mind trial and error seems sufficient - just as trial and error tends to be the primary way you would familiarize yourself with weapons and appropriate selection in action/shooter games like CoD.

Given that the debugging UI provides such visualizations and weapon data is readily available in the LUA, I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult to add such visualization data displays by way of mod!

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well that shrinking aiming spot dosnt mean that there is no RNG. I like that rng part in PZ but still prefer to know my odds.

I like the world of tanks aiming system. for me its perfect spot between skill/ rpg and rng.

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I really think that the circle or a cone of fire would be really helpful in improving the feel of the guns. They're fairly usable at the moment if you understand the systems at play but I don't really think you should have to. It should still be based around your character's skill but there should at least be some kind of indication of the margin for error. At the moment it's not even clear if the gun is firing and missing or just bugged since nothing visible seems to come out of the end (as far as I've seen anyway).

 

Having the bullets visible (regardless of realism) and even something as simple as a little percent chance to hit next to the mouse would do wonders for the feel of guns for new players.

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[... how ridiculous the aiming system is with assualt rifles and such. Just turn in the general direction and everythings dead. This affects mods more then singleplayer [...]

I don't think the targeting system was designed with assault-rifles in mind, as it will continuously select new targets and wreck everything... Though I'd argue that that's an issue with the mods that add such weapons rather than the targeting system itself. A near-term compromise could be to reduce the hit-chance of such weapons and cap it well below 1.0 - it wouldn't be a reflection of real-life by any means, but it would compensate for spray-to-win by increasing ammo consumption, somewhat...

 

I would prefer if i could pick which targets in that direction i could hit. The snaplock thing seems almost random with what target gets picked. Ive had it shoot a zombie to the right of me while i had one right in front of me. It just seems random

Edit: Just having a line or something to show where the bullet will go would be all i want. Having some choice in the matter rather then rng.

 

[...] Guns don't aim properly and you can't have skill with it. It's all based on your character's traits, levels, current moodles and whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot.. 

So you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill, while attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot. In this game, guns are a useless piece of junk...

 

That is entirely the point of a roleplaying game, is it not? It seems entirely rational to me that your performance with a firearm is determined by your character's abilities and status. PZ is not intended to be an action/shooter game, it would seem counter-intuitive to base the majority of gameplay on your character's skills and experience and then assert "but firearm performance is based on how well you personally handle your keyboard and mouse."

"Whether or not the game wants to let you hit each shot" is directly representative of your character's ability to handle firearms, and the RNG accounts for real-world variables that aren't programmed into the game (wind direction, firing into sunlight/other visual obstructions, the variance between firing a cold weapon vs. one that has unloaded several rounds, etc.).

Ultimately, there is skill involved that is delegated to player responsibility - it's not direct weapon handling, but rather in weapon selection and application (like many other elements of RPG games). Don't expect to rack up kills with a hunting rifle if your character's background dictates they're entirely inexperienced with firearms. If you have a situation where your gun takes 1 - 5 shots to kill while attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot, you failed to apply the requisite player skill by choosing a bad weapon for your character's skill level, and then again by discharging that firearm in such a dire situation (though attracting 1 - 50+ zombies per shot can also be a massive advantage and aide you many times more than actually killing any zombie would, if applied skillfully).

If we could have a percentage displayed next to the zombie we targetted thatd definetly go with the whole rpg vibe and wouldnhelp us decide if its worth it to take the shot or not. Could have it toggleable for casuals or hardcore who dont want it.

I think this would ruin the RPG vibe. Maybe not at higher firearm skill-levels, but there's no way a character who just picked up their first firearm yesterday could accurately assess their chances of hitting a target. In striving to maintain the roleplaying aspect of PZ, you could apply a percentage RNG to the estimated hit chance, perhaps, and increase the accuracy of the hit-chance estimate as character skill improves... but otherwise I feel it would convey information that your character couldn't possibly "know".

Maybe just having a small bullseye as a cursor when aiming a gun so you can tell which zombie you are aiming at?

 

Placing the cursor [bullseye] on top of a zombie wont mean that you will hit him, but it means you are aiming/shooting at him.

 

This would work for the hunting rifle for long distances.

I don't see how this is any different from the current system - if you place your cursor on a zombie you are aiming at it. Doesn't mean you'll hit it, but you're firing in it's direction. This already works for every firearm at every distance... Of course, they always miss if you're firing a weapon beyond it's maximum distance - but how would someone picking up a shotgun for the first time know the maximum distance of a weapon through anything other than trial and error or book-knowledge?

If you want, add -Ddebug to the bat file and you can see the area in which a gun can hit something.

If anyone wants to quickly gain knowledge about which weapon to use in what circumstance without all the trial and error, do this, for now - it gives you a nice visualization of weapon range and arc as it corresponds to your character's current skill level, so you can also visualize how they change as a character's skills improve. It also has a nice target-selection visualization; in my experience closer targets within the weapon's min/max range span seem to take priority over more distant ones or those outside of it.

You can also read the weapon definitions, which will additionally give you an idea of relative hit chances and how they improve with skill gains, which is probably the primary statistic for selecting an appropriate weapon.

I'm not arguing that there shouldn't be an easier way to absorb this knowledge, but in my mind trial and error seems sufficient - just as trial and error tends to be the primary way you would familiarize yourself with weapons and appropriate selection in action/shooter games like CoD.

Given that the debugging UI provides such visualizations and weapon data is readily available in the LUA, I can't imagine it would be terribly difficult to add such visualization data displays by way of mod!

 

 

I see your point about it being an RPG. Sometimes because I forget. Most RPG's are deadly boring to me. I do, however, stand by my statement that guns are useless in this game due to the amount of zombies you attract vs the amount you can kill in a reasonable amount of time.

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IMO, a simple fix for this would be the inclusion of a focused aiming mode.

 

Shooting with your gun out randomly is obviously not going to work too well for an inexperienced wannabe-gunman. You're bound to hit the can on the wall in front of your friend's firing range rather than the one in front of you if you just whip out the gun and start shooting. However, even inexperienced shooters can hit something of a human size if it's directly ahead of you and you've been aiming for the past hour without the thing moving.

 

Focused aiming would "cast a light" on your aiming skill, your vision would narrow and a sort of roulette would begin, potential targets will highlight for a split second, simulating a shaky aim, and if you hit fire while a target is highlighted then you'll hit them and ,depending on your aiming skill, you'll have a chance to deal a killing blow/ barely hit or get a body shot that'll simply knock them down.

^All of that, is what will actually make hunting fun IMO once animals are added.

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IMO, a simple fix for this would be the inclusion of a focused aiming mode.

 

Shooting with your gun out randomly is obviously not going to work too well for an inexperienced wannabe-gunman. You're bound to hit the can on the wall in front of your friend's firing range rather than the one in front of you if you just whip out the gun and start shooting. However, even inexperienced shooters can hit something of a human size if it's directly ahead of you and you've been aiming for the past hour without the thing moving.

 

Focused aiming would "cast a light" on your aiming skill, your vision would narrow and a sort of roulette would begin, potential targets will highlight for a split second, simulating a shaky aim, and if you hit fire while a target is highlighted then you'll hit them and ,depending on your aiming skill, you'll have a chance to deal a killing blow/ barely hit or get a body shot that'll simply knock them down.

^All of that, is what will actually make hunting fun IMO once animals are added.

Had it for about two years; constant complaints about the mechanic being broken. Now focusing only influences knock down chance.

Don't mean to be dismissive. It's just that TIS has tried a few things over the years. :P

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