You can build everything from the get go.

[BetaSpectre]

But there is a % failure, and a quality rating on anything you try to craft.

 

Basically there's about a 25% chance of failure per level you are away from what you want to craft. And anything crafted will be at its lowest quality.

 

Attempting to craft a pipe bomb with 0 skill will mean the bomb will blow up the moment when you finish making it 99.99% of the time, but there's a 0.01% chance of success, but the bomb will do 1% damage radius.

 

This way players can train their skills, or attempt to build crucial I NEED THIS NOW structures on the spot.

 

I can imagine some players needing to rush to get Water collection bins, but lack the skills needed even for the basic one.

[Blasted_Taco]

I don't agree with this idea, it removes the whole "profesions and recipes" part of the game since you can be a jack of all trades with a 25% of failing.

 

I dont know how to express it, but it kinda removes the whole meaning of specialization of a character plus the need to look for recipes books.

[Rathlord]

Specialization is a very intentional and deliberate part of the game. This directly detracts from the devs vision of it. Can't say I'd particularly enjoy it.

 

That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing quality ratings for everything we do govern their statistics. Just not having everything open for anyone.

[BetaSpectre]

I don't agree with this idea, it removes the whole "profesions and recipes" part of the game since you can be a jack of all trades with a 25% of failing.

 

I dont know how to express it, but it kinda removes the whole meaning of specialization of a character plus the need to look for recipes books.

You'd need a skill of 9 for you to be a jack of all trades with a 25% chance of failing, with a skill of 6 you'd have a 99.99% chance of failing at level 10 stuff.

 

This idea is mostly so you can practice, and so you won't have to use up 99% of your resources just learning how to craft to do one thing. Instead of spending 8 boxes of nails just so you could craft one barrel you can now gamble a single box and make a barrel, and not waste resources on building things you don't really care for.

[Rathlord]

This idea is mostly so you can practice, and so you won't have to use up 99% of your resources just learning how to craft to do one thing.

 

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it ties in nicely to an article I'm working on writing about why gamers don't know what they want out of games or understand balance in many cases. Not trying to pick on you, but the intent is for players to use up resources learning to craft. If you don't, you either have lots of stuff you got easily or you don't need to leave the base to get resources. Resources are meant to be scarce. If they're not, people don't have any reason to leave base... and thus, complain the game is boring. And they'd be right- that'd be poor game design.

 

And if you're about to argue "but you'd still need to use the resources to get what you have now because you'd fail a lot" (yes, I'm prescient) then consider that you're making it no different from the current system in that case- except far more frustrating for the player as they could be left with nothing, or worse yet- dead or injured because of it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for having different item qualities, I think that'd be great. But just bear in mind sometimes there's reasons things are done the way they are.

[Blasted_Taco]

 

This idea is mostly so you can practice, and so you won't have to use up 99% of your resources just learning how to craft to do one thing.

 

Like I said, I'm all for having different item qualities, I think that'd be great. But just bear in mind sometimes there's reasons things are done the way they are.

 

What ya thinking off?

 

Some sort of Wurm Online item qualitie related to the character skill?

[BetaSpectre]

 

This idea is mostly so you can practice, and so you won't have to use up 99% of your resources just learning how to craft to do one thing.

 

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it ties in nicely to an article I'm working on writing about why gamers don't know what they want out of games or understand balance in many cases. Not trying to pick on you, but the intent is for players to use up resources learning to craft. If you don't, you either have lots of stuff you got easily or you don't need to leave the base to get resources. Resources are meant to be scarce. If they're not, people don't have any reason to leave base... and thus, complain the game is boring. And they'd be right- that'd be poor game design.

 

And if you're about to argue "but you'd still need to use the resources to get what you have now because you'd fail a lot" (yes, I'm prescient) then consider that you're making it no different from the current system in that case- except far more frustrating for the player as they could be left with nothing, or worse yet- dead or injured because of it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for having different item qualities, I think that'd be great. But just bear in mind sometimes there's reasons things are done the way they are.

 

The only crafting resource I ever bother getting are nails. Wood is everywhere at the logging company, I generally make a base there due to the huge stock of resources. But I almost never make a small base in the city until late game because of the issue of needing water barrels or other nice things, but no skill to make them until I make basically a perimeter wall around the Logging Company.

 

And really the way I see it, I can either spend resources trying to make water barrels or I can spend them making fences. Either way the resources are wasted true. But I'd prefer getting EXP in an attempt in trying to build what I wanted to build. Rather then needing to grind slimes to make apricots(RPG boring grinding that's somewhat unrelated to what I want to do).

 

The resources wasted on this would be significantly less then if I were to craft the normal route. Instead of walling off every building in sight, I'd instead make a proper base albiet faster then the game intended ATM. The game already has a quality thing, but it has no real impact on gameplay yet. Like Wall HP.

 

I suppose you could consider it bad game design having places like the logging company with high resources with a practically limitless amount of wood available, as well as being isolated enough to be turned into its own secluded world in which you no longer have to leave the base.

 

I generally look to setting up other bases after the Logging Company gets set up with farms and etc. basically making other locations secure then moving on. If my idea were implemented instead of always making a town at the logging company I would go straight into securing a base in the town with a makeshift ladder, sheet rope, and water barrels. Then stock up on supplies.

[fluffe9911]

maybe make this a mod request? lol

[CaptKaspar]

I'd be ok with this, but only if the resources you used in trying to create the item were destroyed or "used up".

 

If I tried to build a staircase and I failed at it, I would have used resources in my failing. I had to cut boards, use nails, etc in an attempt to build the stairs. If I didn't, then I never really tried to build the stairs did I? I would be left with a lot of wasted boards that were cut the wrong length and a bunch of bent and broken nails, etc.

 

This way you risk wasting scarce resources attempting a task that you know you probably shouldn't. You'll gain experience in attempting it, but you are likely to waste resources in doing so.

 

For the time being if you need XP but don't want to build items you don't need, just saw logs and stockpile them. You'll need those planks eventually. You can also barricade and unbarricade windows. This will waste nails though, and they're probably the most valuable item in game.

[CzarUltra]

How about a sandbox option for this

[EnigmaGrey]

How about a sandbox option for this

If an entire system has to be implemented for it, it's probably not a good candidate for sandbox.

[uberevan]

 

 

This idea is mostly so you can practice, and so you won't have to use up 99% of your resources just learning how to craft to do one thing.

 

 

I'm glad you mentioned this, because it ties in nicely to an article I'm working on writing about why gamers don't know what they want out of games or understand balance in many cases. Not trying to pick on you, but the intent is for players to use up resources learning to craft. If you don't, you either have lots of stuff you got easily or you don't need to leave the base to get resources. Resources are meant to be scarce. If they're not, people don't have any reason to leave base... and thus, complain the game is boring. And they'd be right- that'd be poor game design.

 

And if you're about to argue "but you'd still need to use the resources to get what you have now because you'd fail a lot" (yes, I'm prescient) then consider that you're making it no different from the current system in that case- except far more frustrating for the player as they could be left with nothing, or worse yet- dead or injured because of it.

 

Like I said, I'm all for having different item qualities, I think that'd be great. But just bear in mind sometimes there's reasons things are done the way they are.

 

The resources wasted on this would be significantly less then if I were to craft the normal route. Instead of walling off every building in sight, I'd instead make a proper base albiet faster then the game intended ATM. The game already has a quality thing, but it has no real impact on gameplay yet. Like Wall HP.

 

I suppose you could consider it bad game design having places like the logging company with high resources with a practically limitless amount of wood available, as well as being isolated enough to be turned into its own secluded world in which you no longer have to leave the base.

I remember arguing with CrazyManMan about being able to build a base far too quickly in this game, and you're saying you want to speed that up?  If you're dedicated, you can literally build a house in 3 days and you'd like to make it even faster?

[nasKo]

I remember arguing with CrazyManMan about being able to build a base far too quickly in this game, and you're saying you want to speed that up?  If you're dedicated, you can literally build a house in 3 days and you'd like to make it even faster?

Doesn't necessarily have to be faster. Maybe he's just suggesting being able to attempt to build things, then resulting in a very low quality or failed attempt, but still giving you XP that increases your chances of succeeding at a higher level.

Sounds better than being locked away from it.

Especially the following part sounds a lot better than "unlocking" something, since that feels kind of gamey or old school.

"Attempting to craft a pipe bomb with 0 skill will mean the bomb will blow up the moment when you finish making it 99.99% of the time, but there's a 0.01% chance of success, but the bomb will do 1% damage radius."

I can't wait for the support threads asking why they died making a bomb two minutes in

 

maybe make this a mod request? lol

Or maybe have a conversation about a suggestion instead of shrugging it off as something that'd be better off as a mod?

[BetaSpectre]

I'd be ok with this, but only if the resources you used in trying to create the item were destroyed or "used up".

 

If I tried to build a staircase and I failed at it, I would have used resources in my failing. I had to cut boards, use nails, etc in an attempt to build the stairs. If I didn't, then I never really tried to build the stairs did I? I would be left with a lot of wasted boards that were cut the wrong length and a bunch of bent and broken nails, etc.

 

This way you risk wasting scarce resources attempting a task that you know you probably shouldn't. You'll gain experience in attempting it, but you are likely to waste resources in doing so.

 

For the time being if you need XP but don't want to build items you don't need, just saw logs and stockpile them. You'll need those planks eventually. You can also barricade and unbarricade windows. This will waste nails though, and they're probably the most valuable item in game.

The resources will definetly be wasted when attempts fail, though it would be interesting if those broken resources remained, bent nails can be unbent, or turned into shrapnel for pipe bombs. Broken wood can be tossed into fires. 

 

It makes more sense that you should need to attempt to build something for you to understand how to build it rather then making fences all day long suddenly makes you able to make beds, shelves, and posh furnishings.

[EnigmaGrey]

Which means no one will bother trying to craft bombs at a low level, making the resulting "you can try" system pointless, just as it was in games like Fallout 1 (low level lock picking, trap defeating .etc), encouraging players to save-scum or not bother.

Both systems are "old school," but I much prefer the locked-out one for its simple presentation and honesty.

 

Why would anyone waste resources attemting to build something complex, if they can bulid something tangible like a bunch of walls without wasting resources or time? The XP gain would have to be pretty high to be tempting, considering how important thingsl ike nails are.

[Svarog]

Do or do not, there is no try.

[Rathlord]

Don't think this is being thought through. RNG systems are almost always more frustrating for the player, not less.

[BetaSpectre]

Which means no one will bother trying to craft bombs at a low level, making the resulting "you can try" system pointless, just as it was in games like Fallout 1 (low level lock picking, trap defeating .etc), encouraging players to save-scum or not bother.

Both systems are "old school," but I much prefer the locked-out one for its simple presentation and honesty.

 

Why would anyone waste resources attemting to build something complex, if they can bulid something tangible like a bunch of walls without wasting resources or time? The XP gain would have to be pretty high to be tempting, considering how important thingsl ike nails are.

Broken nails would be more interesting to see as something you can recover albiet slowly from failed projects, its unrealistic to build walls then suddenly know how to build beds. I'd prefer a system that didn't give you EXP for things unrelated to what you wanted to make, and you might not want to have more walls. Also who drinks bleach? Its something in game with no tangible use, and who eats white berries? It just kills you Amirte? But its in the game because these things would kill you IRL it builds atmosphere.

[EnigmaGrey]

A plea to realism doesn't really work: In reality I research something, if possible see how other poeple do it, then try to get it right the first time. I don't build a couple dozen walls and destroy materials that cost me money and time to acquire, before building a wall. Instead, I work on simpler things until I have enough confidence to tackle a larger project, if necessary. It's the same way when taking intro home improvement courses: start with basic dimensioning and selection of lumber, graduate to basic panel making and some finishing, basic drywall, simple framing and layout .etc meant to build both a familiarity with tools and to build confidence, as well as teach theory. The traditional bird house, toolbox, or crate leads to better things

 

Sure, you can skip ahead and just try really hard to do something, but it's kind of pointless if the result is going to be shit and you know that before hand. Why even have it in if, say, your water butt is really going to act like a sieve the first dozen times you try it, or fail to be completed at all? Is that how you'd go about it in reality, too?

 

Bleach can be used to clean up blood and poison food, as well as provide a clear way out if you don't want to become a zombie. White berries provide a similar function, minus the cleaning aspect, but also work to trick inexperienced players. They're not useless or in the game just because they build atmosphere or just becuase it's in real life. If you want to throw the realistic argument at it, most berries probably shouldn't even kill the player, just make them sick.

[Rathlord]

Broken nails would be more interesting to see as something you can recover albiet slowly from failed projects

 

Which is back to having no consequences (or less) for failing and breaking game balance. You're meant to have to go find more nails. Anything that reduces that is going to be harmful to game balance, not positive.

 

its unrealistic to build walls then suddenly know how to build beds.

 

Actually, no. It's not. If you don't know how to do something, doing it wrong more won't help you learn. But building walls can teach you about toe-nailing, structural stability, and other concepts that could be applied to bed making as you got better and more comfortable with wall making. In fact, this is MUCH more realistic than learning to do something you don't know how to do by just magically learning by doing it wrong more and more. Building something doesn't involve luck. Everything is deterministic. Either you do it right and it works, or you don't. You couldn't have this any farther backwards. And as someone who gets to watch new builders learn frequently (I work at a lumber yard), I feel pretty confident that I know what I'm talking about. They either learn by asking me, looking it up, or (if they've never done it) applying things they've learned previously to the new thing. They don't learn by doing it wrong 400 times and then doing it right.

 

 

Also who drinks bleach?

 

 

50,000+ reports a year in the US alone and the number one cause of accidental poisoning in the world.

[Blasted_Taco]

-

 

 

Also who drinks bleach?

 

 

50,000+ reports a year in the US alone and the number one cause of accidental poisoning in the world.

 

 

And also we have people who drink bleach ON THE GAME and then complain or ask why did i die, i only drank bleach to calm my thirst.

 

But Rathlord takes the cake with the response, i could try 100 different ways to make a bed without looking it up and i will end up frustrated because the structure just wont support the weight of anything.

 

Also do you really think anyone will try to fuck around with RNG? Most players never try to do anything below 45% because they know that the RNG will fuck them over (XCOM, old RPGs and other games with RNG involved.)

[LewisDTC]

(XCOM, old RPGs and other games with RNG involved.)

Damn you XCOM, I refuse to believe that not one of those six 75% shots hit...

Seriously though, that's a valid point. I always look for alternatives when my chances are below 60% or so.

[uberevan]

 

-

 

 

Also who drinks bleach?

 

 

50,000+ reports a year in the US alone and the number one cause of accidental poisoning in the world.

 

 

And also we have people who drink bleach ON THE GAME and then complain or ask why did i die, i only drank bleach to calm my thirst.

 

But Rathlord takes the cake with the response, i could try 100 different ways to make a bed without looking it up and i will end up frustrated because the structure just wont support the weight of anything.

 

Also do you really think anyone will try to fuck around with RNG? Most players never try to do anything below 45% because they know that the RNG will fuck them over (XCOM, old RPGs and other games with RNG involved.)

FTL taught me that even a 30% chance can save your life

[nasKo]

 

Also who drinks bleach?

 

50,000+ reports a year in the US alone and the number one cause of accidental poisoning in the world.

 

If I understood his intention of asking the question right, you've kind of proven his point.

It seems to be a fair counter-question to

 

Why would anyone waste resources attemting to build something complex, if they can bulid something tangible like a bunch of walls without wasting resources or time?

While I agree that logic would tell people not to do it, we're all aware that logic isn't really driving a player's decision.

 

Not sure how a system like this would turn out or if it would be more fun than the current one but I like the general idea of it.

[BetaSpectre]

IMO unless there are broken resources this won't be added in for a while. I.E. scrap planks, and broken nails to replace broken or failed structures like if a wall was destroyed by zombies the planks would be unusable for the same structure and the nails all bent if not rusted over. (currently broken structures have perfectly fine resources nails and planks)

 

I still prefer my idea even with an unstated RNG. You don't know what you can't or can do until you try but you have a general IRL idea that you can't build a computer from scratch.

 

This idea might be something to consider to put in for a mod or in game after a year, but I believe most people would be against this change since it changes the status quo alot. Even though its an addition to the system not a replacement since people don't want to account for personal errors in a game.

 

Like if someone playing X-Com made an addition unless you have a 100% chance to hit you AREN'T allowed to shoot AT ALL. I believe I'd prefer RNG over being unable to even play the game until I grind my melee stats until I can shoot my rifle.

 

Poisoned Berries are practically for atmosphere at this point, that doesn't mean we shouldn't have them. Poisoning isn't implemented yet. Being able to practice crafting makes more sense then making wooden planks then knowing how to make a staircase. It shows an actual progression with actual tangible results of attempts. Its as atmospheric as animations. And guns producing loud sounds to attract zombies.