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Zombie Tactics an Behaviours


MisterInSayne

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I know, I know... they are zombies, however... They already have basic instincts, they already are preditorial. They even have a basic logic system based on instincts, seeing they 'investigate' sounds, smoke, light, etc. They even move in pacts.

 

Now, based on that... With just taking basic instincts in mind... their tendency to move in groups means their instincts are based on being able to hunt better as a group, or get their food more effective. Which leads me to the idea that they assumingly would have instinctive tactical behaviour that goes with pact behaviourism... For example, a animal basic level of comminication for things such as, (even though this first one doesn't apply to zombies) danger... but more importantly... the sight of food....

 

If one zombie would see a foodsource, based on their behaviour, it would be logic if by instinct it'd let the others know (by for example moaning loudly in a specific way).... And zombies would start pouring out of the buildings around...

 

Over time, as food gets harder to find, the zombies would logically speaking adjust the way they approach getting food, which is shown by  zombies migrating when a place no longer has any living humans anymore... Which could lead to them developing ambushes, such as hiding inside buildings, making it seem like there are no zombies around... and once they notice their food source, surround them in mere seconds.

 

I'd love to see things like that, as well as other 'instinctive tactical behaviours found in preditorial animals' at some point, how scary it may be :P And these things are all basic instinctive behaviours, just like how a spider knows how to build a web and wait in it until a fly is cought in it, without having it thought why or how... It's not actual intelligence.

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I don't think this fits well with the current lore. The things that zombies have going for them is numbers and the fact that humans get tired and make mistakes. Having them purposefully do anything seems kinda of wrong. Unlike animals zombies seem to ignore basic instincts such as avoiding fire, avoiding getting hurt, etc. Saying they would ambush people on purpose seems against this oblivious nature of zombies. Where they are in the moment and cannot think ahead. Whatever stimulus be it sound, sight or smell seems to draw them. If no food is around then they seem to go into sort of a wander or loiter mode. Not because they are purposefully waiting to ambush food but because there is no food (or other stimulus) to get their attention. They are sort of like wandering magnets which only do anything when something attracts them.

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It's an interesting idea... one that might be neat for a mod. I'm not sure I could personally see this fitting in with 'vanilla' PZ, though, given what we can observe about the in-game lore.

 

Regarding zombies being in a pack, my understanding (and how it actually works in the game, essentially) is that zombies congregate not because of any instinct, but instead because they hear the sound from other zombies. This causes them to slowly, eventually form a horde.

 

It would make for a neat 'alternate' game mode mod, as well- instead of having zombies that are super fast or strong, you have them use duplicitous tactics.

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I don't think this fits well with the current lore. The things that zombies have going for them is numbers and the fact that humans get tired and make mistakes. Having them purposefully do anything seems kinda of wrong. Unlike animals zombies seem to ignore basic instincts such as avoiding fire, avoiding getting hurt, etc. Saying they would ambush people on purpose seems against this oblivious nature of zombies. Where they are in the moment and cannot think ahead. Whatever stimulus be it sound, sight or smell seems to draw them. If no food is around then they seem to go into sort of a wander or loiter mode. Not because they are purposefully waiting to ambush food but because there is no food (or other stimulus) to get their attention. They are sort of like wandering magnets which only do anything when something attracts them.

 

Actually, the zombies that are currently in the game have a higher level of intelligence and problem solving skill than most insects do. For example, a fly keeps bashing against a window trying to get to the other side... the ingame zombies will walk around fences to get to the other side instead of getting stuck against them, as a fly does against a window. Likewise goes for stairs, instead of piling up on a floor below their prey, they find a way up using stairs. This actually is a very high level of problem solving capabilities and intelligence when it comes to zombies. And something magnets can't do. The behaviour of a spider creating a web, translating to zombies laying in waiting for a prey to come by, requires a lower level of intelligence and problem solving capability than using stairs does for example.

 

It's an interesting idea... one that might be neat for a mod. I'm not sure I could personally see this fitting in with 'vanilla' PZ, though, given what we can observe about the in-game lore.

 

Regarding zombies being in a pack, my understanding (and how it actually works in the game, essentially) is that zombies congregate not because of any instinct, but instead because they hear the sound from other zombies. This causes them to slowly, eventually form a horde.

 

It would make for a neat 'alternate' game mode mod, as well- instead of having zombies that are super fast or strong, you have them use duplicitous tactics.

 

Unfortunetly I don't think that section is moddable as it is right now, unless you disable the normal zombies and make everything from scratch, or do other unorthodox ways to get into their AI.

 

Hmm... interesting... That partly explains things... It still makes me wonder why the zombies migrate to empty parts of the map instead of places where there are other zombies then, which, with that reasoning would be more logical. And thus my reason to suspect there being more than just, as hydro called it, the magnet effect.

 

If at some point the AI/zombie behaviour is adjustable in such a way, I'll give it a try. ^__^ I have many nasy idea's! The zombies in the book trilogy 'Feed' for example get smarter the bigger a horde gets.... *evil grin*

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Regarding their pathfinding, Lemmy101 mentioned one time that even though it makes them a bit more advanced than they might theoretically want, it's a side-effect of the pathfinding system that's somewhat necessary- so we might not be able to speculate too much into that.

 

As far as why they go into empty zones, that's largely explained by the meta system in game ("events" happen that move the zombies there) and in lore terms, can be thought of as them receiving other stimuli (such as chasing survivors, hearing a tree fall over, hearing a car alarm go off, etc.) moreso than any hunting instinct.

 

Of course, this is all just based off of my observations and isn't necessarily "official" TIS lore. They don't even tell me that :D

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Regarding their pathfinding, Lemmy101 mentioned one time that even though it makes them a bit more advanced than they might theoretically want, it's a side-effect of the pathfinding system that's somewhat necessary- so we might not be able to speculate too much into that.

 

As far as why they go into empty zones, that's largely explained by the meta system in game ("events" happen that move the zombies there) and in lore terms, can be thought of as them receiving other stimuli (such as chasing survivors, hearing a tree fall over, hearing a car alarm go off, etc.) moreso than any hunting instinct.

 

Of course, this is all just based off of my observations and isn't necessarily "official" TIS lore. They don't even tell me that :D

 

Very well, I'll give you that. Then now my ace card, that I've held back until now.... Zombies already fake being a dead corpse until a player gets close enough to lunge at them. ;) Zombies already have ambushing tactics as individual zombie behaviour.

 

ps, the side-effect of the pathfinding system is gaming wise a good thing ^__^

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Very well, I'll give you that. Then now my ace card, that I've held back until now.... Zombies already fake being a dead corpse until a player gets close enough to lunge at them. ;) Zombies already have ambushing tactics as individual zombie behaviour.

 

Ahhh, very clever. But I would argue that these are zombies that lost the use of their legs (since they don't stand up) and instead have just not received any stimuli to have moved them. They may not see the player until they get close due to their limited vision (only facing one way) and hearing (head against the ground, perhaps). Thus, it is only when someone gets close that they receive a stimulus, and thus- attack!

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Very well, I'll give you that. Then now my ace card, that I've held back until now.... Zombies already fake being a dead corpse until a player gets close enough to lunge at them. ;) Zombies already have ambushing tactics as individual zombie behaviour.

 

Ahhh, very clever. But I would argue that these are zombies that lost the use of their legs (since they don't stand up) and instead have just not received any stimuli to have moved them. They may not see the player until they get close due to their limited vision (only facing one way) and hearing (head against the ground, perhaps). Thus, it is only when someone gets close that they receive a stimulus, and thus- attack!

 

 

You can fire a gun and if I'm correct they would still not move. ;)

 

Edit: It also happens to zombies that got knocked down by players, meaning they had a stimuly before they fell over ^__^

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I don't think this fits well with the current lore. The things that zombies have going for them is numbers and the fact that humans get tired and make mistakes. Having them purposefully do anything seems kinda of wrong. Unlike animals zombies seem to ignore basic instincts such as avoiding fire, avoiding getting hurt, etc. Saying they would ambush people on purpose seems against this oblivious nature of zombies. Where they are in the moment and cannot think ahead. Whatever stimulus be it sound, sight or smell seems to draw them. If no food is around then they seem to go into sort of a wander or loiter mode. Not because they are purposefully waiting to ambush food but because there is no food (or other stimulus) to get their attention. They are sort of like wandering magnets which only do anything when something attracts them.

 

Actually, the zombies that are currently in the game have a higher level of intelligence and problem solving skill than most insects do. For example, a fly keeps bashing against a window trying to get to the other side... the ingame zombies will walk around fences to get to the other side instead of getting stuck against them, as a fly does against a window. Likewise goes for stairs, instead of piling up on a floor below their prey, they find a way up using stairs. This actually is a very high level of problem solving capabilities and intelligence when it comes to zombies. And something magnets can't do. The behaviour of a spider creating a web, translating to zombies laying in waiting for a prey to come by, requires a lower level of intelligence and problem solving capability than using stairs does for example.

 

Ah I forgot about their basic path finding. That's hard to gauge since they do seem to be able to navigate around things and even jump over fences and through windows. However some of the time will fall into holes in the floor and sometimes not. I am not sure what determines this.

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IMO The Walking Dead (comic) types of zombies would fit fine in PZ lore. They have 2 kinds of zeds roamers and lurkers. 1st type will follow any noise they hear, forming hords and herds. second type tends to stay in the same location.

I wouldove to see more zombie typs based on their physical condition like fat zeds ( slowe but more hp harder to push back) ex-fit (they grab better, its harder to push them back) etc. I know its not a behavior related thing but still nice addition without making special zombies.

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I'm not sure about fat zombies as it might be too much work for the team?

But I do like the idea of having lurkers and roamers. As far as I know we already have leader and follower zombies. But I have no idea how this works? I don't know if leaders are spawned as leaders or become a leader when needed? I might even be making up the whole leader thing?

I find the pack behaviour thing all a bit interesting and confusing. Do zombies that spawn in houses move to join hordes? If they don't we then have leaders, followers and housebound zombies, that's not even including the downed/sleeping/ambush zombies!? How many types are there? Are they all changeable? (follower zombie turns into leader if the leader dies)

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I'm not sure about fat zombies as it might be too much work for the team?

The visual part would be just to add them a nice belly and thicker arms / head. dunno how hard is that for 3d moddels.

It still would be great for players and NPCs to have visual effect for fat/ obese traits.

The hp/ grab and pushback part is probabl the easy part :-)

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"Hunting packs" don't really fit with the lore, zed linger in groups for entirely different reasons.

 

"Tactics" are outside of the intellect of the zeds, they are blatantly stupid and only exist to eat, not 'hunt'. They have no concept of going for the kill, they eat things alive which is why all they really do is grab and bite.

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"Hunting packs" don't really fit with the lore, zed linger in groups for entirely different reasons.

"Tactics" are outside of the intellect of the zeds, they are blatantly stupid and only exist to eat, not 'hunt'. They have no concept of going for the kill, they eat things alive which is why all they really do is grab and bite.

While you're right about that "hunting" doesn't really fit with the lore, I find myself often cornered from zombies. When there are more than 3 zombies, atleast one always comes from the side while the others go from the front. I guess thats for gameplay reasons that they do this. However I find it very challenging (in the good way).
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"Hunting packs" don't really fit with the lore, zed linger in groups for entirely different reasons.

"Tactics" are outside of the intellect of the zeds, they are blatantly stupid and only exist to eat, not 'hunt'. They have no concept of going for the kill, they eat things alive which is why all they really do is grab and bite.

While you're right about that "hunting" doesn't really fit with the lore, I find myself often cornered from zombies. When there are more than 3 zombies, atleast one always comes from the side while the others go from the front. I guess thats for gameplay reasons that they do this. However I find it very challenging (in the good way).

I could definitely be wrong about this, as I have no insights into the actual programming behind the z's, but I'm willing to bet there is no code in place that causes zombies to flank you or attack from different angles. From what I've seen, the z's all move towards you in the same manner, as simply as their (relatively basic) path finding allows. I would be so bold as to say observations to the contrary are suffering from a bit of confirmation bias (I.e., you see what you're looking for rather than what's there).

I assume the same could be said for zombies "targeting" windows, doors, and player made structures. While it seems logical to say "all these doors and windows are broken, the z's must be seeking them out purposefully", and this seems observable through the sheer number of broken windows and doors around you, the devs (Lemmy, I believe) out right stated there is nothing in the coding that tells them to do so.

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"Hunting packs" don't really fit with the lore, zed linger in groups for entirely different reasons.

"Tactics" are outside of the intellect of the zeds, they are blatantly stupid and only exist to eat, not 'hunt'. They have no concept of going for the kill, they eat things alive which is why all they really do is grab and bite.

While you're right about that "hunting" doesn't really fit with the lore, I find myself often cornered from zombies. When there are more than 3 zombies, atleast one always comes from the side while the others go from the front. I guess thats for gameplay reasons that they do this. However I find it very challenging (in the good way).

I could definitely be wrong about this, as I have no insights into the actual programming behind the z's, but I'm willing to bet there is no code in place that causes zombies to flank you or attack from different angles. From what I've seen, the z's all move towards you in the same manner, as simply as their (relatively basic) path finding allows. I would be so bold as to say observations to the contrary are suffering from a bit of confirmation bias (I.e., you see what you're looking for rather than what's there).

I assume the same could be said for zombies "targeting" windows, doors, and player made structures. While it seems logical to say "all these doors and windows are broken, the z's must be seeking them out purposefully", and this seems observable through the sheer number of broken windows and doors around you, the devs (Lemmy, I believe) out right stated there is nothing in the coding that tells them to do so.

 

Yeah, you're right. I guess it seemed so cool, that zombies are actually using strategies. But still I don't know why they are sometimes behave so weird, like they are going back and forth and finally coming from an another direction their friend come. I remember lemmy saying that in the thread about zombies intentionally attacking player-made structures. I must say though, I would be lying if I would say that I am convinced about "zombies having no special combat behaviors".

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Any pathfinding ability of zombies that are outside what you'd expect from Romero lore zombies is an undesirable side effect of either 1) a bug or 2) concessions we've made for game difficulty and nothing to do with the lore.

 

Zomboid zombies, lore wise, have some vague sense of walking around things when they aren't in direct LOS of a close character, where the instinct to eat is strong and immediate and causes them to walk in a direct line. If they are further away, in theory they should still walk toward the player, however if this was the case the games difficulty would plummet as zombies would get caught on the map so much they wouldn't be able to walk through a door, or down a corridor, without getting stuck. As such we need some pathfinding and for the most part this seems reasonable and fits the lore. The slight vague connection to their lives, in Romero 'why do they come to the mall?' it seems reasonable for some innate bit of pattern recognition to be in a corridor and walk down it and around a corner instead of just walking diagonally into a wall and fall over. Or for them to somehow 'recognize' (wrong word to use but there you go) doors as a way between rooms, even if door handles are above their cognitive ability.

 

It's only in cases where the pathfinding finds a convoluted path that it's really at odds with the lore, but they are hard to get rid of without nerfing their general navigation abilities.

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