King jjwpenguin Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 I for one don't mind the system (plz dont be mad) but i feel it is very balanced. I see both sides but i am sadly with the dev's since (me being unable to get stronger after a good 2-3 months) so i have to say i think its pretty fair. possibly if really becomes a problem the speed at which it gains could be increased maybe from 1x to 1.1x but besides that it seems pretty fair.Really? I find that hard to believe if you were really trying for 2-3 months. I don't mean to disrespect, I just personally experienced something else in a shorter time.I have for about the past month or so been doing regular exercises (push-ups, chin-ups, pull-ups) and I have had a noticeable improvement. I don't go to a gym. In doing just body weight resistance exercises, I have increased my push-up sets by 25% and my chin-ups by 50%. I have also been jogging and have had measurable improvement in my run times. I have dropped 30 seconds off my mile time on about average. I would have considered myself slightly above average condition to begin with, but I'm also into my thirties, so it's not getting any easier to stay in shape.Everyone is different obviously and my experiences may not be the norm. I am just giving my opinion based on my experiences. I don't think I'll be that upset if it's easier for me than most well 2-3 months of non constant work outs. like one every few days so a good 2-4 times a week. also the fact i was not using the best equipment or anything like protein shakes and such. It would be a lot easier but then again i also have to worry about not being sore for my daily tasks so nothing too hardcore either. CaptKaspar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stewydeadmike Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 I would like to see the requirement for strength and fitness levels go down or at least make new ways to get more strength and fitness . XP as I'm pretty sure someone chopping down trees and carrying logs from one place to another would get fairly strong in a few weeks if this was done on a regular basis. or maybe make it so you could eat things that gave strength multipliers like protein shakes and stuff. Adamiks and CaptKaspar 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zorak Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 Dear OP, those skills are not to get lvl 10. There are to indicate difference between strong and weak characters. Its more like devs want you to start at X lvl and then gain 1 or 2 extra lvls during the game. If you want to have lvl 10 pick the right traits.For the feeling of progress in combat and running you have running skill and combat related skills wich you can lvl up much faster.Thats the reason why those skills were hidden for so long and now once we.can see them, there are in seperated from other "normal" skills. uberevan, Blasted_Taco and Rathlord 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamiks Posted September 6, 2015 Author Share Posted September 6, 2015 Considering most people start the game under 5 points, we might have to alter are assumptions somewhat: perhaps 3-4 is really the "average," and numbers as high as 10 aren't just athletic, but Olympic. Dear OP, those skills are not to get lvl 10. There are to indicate difference between strong and weak characters. Its more like devs want you to start at X lvl and then gain 1 or 2 extra lvls during the game. If you want to have lvl 10 pick the right traits.For the feeling of progress in combat and running you have running skill and combat related skills wich you can lvl up much faster.Thats the reason why those skills were hidden for so long and now once we.can see them, there are in seperated from other "normal" skills. I found that my character is on lv 9 of strength after i picked up "strong" trait. At that point I agree with Enigma and i must disagree that lv10 is something you shouldn't reach. After what i've read here i think that this should be balanced in this way:1. Make average levels easier to gain. Make a bit less benefits from them.2. Make super levels harder to gain. Make a bit more benefits from them.3. How much you're carrying and for how long time should aslo affect strentgh. Not only killing zombies.4. How much you build, getting exhausted (not sleep "bar") should also affect fitness, not only running. CaptKaspar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKaspar Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 Considering most people start the game under 5 points, we might have to alter are assumptions somewhat: perhaps 3-4 is really the "average," and numbers as high as 10 aren't just athletic, but Olympic. Dear OP, those skills are not to get lvl 10. There are to indicate difference between strong and weak characters. Its more like devs want you to start at X lvl and then gain 1 or 2 extra lvls during the game. If you want to have lvl 10 pick the right traits.For the feeling of progress in combat and running you have running skill and combat related skills wich you can lvl up much faster.Thats the reason why those skills were hidden for so long and now once we.can see them, there are in seperated from other "normal" skills. I found that my character is on lv 9 of strength after i picked up "strong" trait. At that point I agree with Enigma and i must disagree that lv10 is something you shouldn't reach. After what i've read here i think that this should be balanced in this way:1. Make average levels easier to gain. Make a bit less benefits from them.2. Make super levels harder to gain. Make a bit more benefits from them.3. How much you're carrying and for how long time should aslo affect strentgh. Not only killing zombies.4. How much you build, getting exhausted (not sleep) should also affect fitness, not only running.I agree with most of these but I wanted to point out that on #3 carrying heavy loads does increase your strength. I've tested this from carrying logs in the past. It just takes a really really long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamiks Posted September 6, 2015 Author Share Posted September 6, 2015 Never noticed that... All i can do is hope that game also give me XP for loading logs on "hand dolly" with 170 capacity from Hydrocraft mod (it sound OP, but it really isn't because you need to equip it with both hands and because "floor" capacity is 50 you can't drop it if you loaded more than this..). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyrrent Eiledoll Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 Have made two Items ... Boxingbag for Strength and Running Machine for Fitness ... both give you 10 xp for 1500 Time and 1 complete bottle of water. Makes it a little bit harder later in the game. so destroy the fun of gain xp and take the easy way.http://cloud.directupload.net/1YK0 Drops in Crates, Sportshop and Storageunit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamiks Posted September 6, 2015 Author Share Posted September 6, 2015 "both give you 10 xp for 1500 Time" "so destroy the fun of gain xp and take the easy way." Emm.... Yeah... Anyway do it remove normal XP gain or something? And btw i'm not going to use it because i don't want to spend hours training like in MMO. I was talking about really, really different thing, but maybe someone will find it enjoyable, though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Fisher Posted September 6, 2015 Share Posted September 6, 2015 "both give you 10 xp for 1500 Time" "so destroy the fun of gain xp and take the easy way." Emm.... Yeah... Anyway do it remove normal XP gain or something? And btw i'm not going to use it because i don't want to spend hours training like in MMO. I was talking about really, really different thing, but maybe someone will find it enjoyable, though... You could always download the cheat menu mod and increase your strength once you feel you should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 However, the average should be mean of the range (1-10) IMO. May I ask why you feel that's the case? Having level gains be exponentially harder rather than linear is both truer to real life and rather omnipresent in games. It makes much less sense to have it be a linear increase in strength or time, in my opinion. Generally speaking, as you get stronger, the amount of effort it takes to get stronger still is much higher- and the amount stronger you get it much lower. If you can do 10 push-ups day 1 and train for 2 weeks, you might be able to increase your push-up count to 20. Wow, double! If you train for another month, you might only increase that to 25, though. Good progress, but still not as much as the first one. Train for another 2 months, and you might get to 30. Ouch, that's rough. Not quite real life numbers, but as someone who's done serious strength training in the past, that's how it works. Neither time spent nor muscle gained is linear in reality. Blasted_Taco 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Gonfalon Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 Only takes a month to get in pretty good shape. 6 months, pretty bad ass mofo. A year in? That's a demi god. All with half assing it. Now if my life depended on it and all the ice cream in the world had melted? Pshhhhh. CaptKaspar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKaspar Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 However, the average should be mean of the range (1-10) IMO. May I ask why you feel that's the case? Having level gains be exponentially harder rather than linear is both truer to real life and rather omnipresent in games. It makes much less sense to have it be a linear increase in strength or time, in my opinion. Generally speaking, as you get stronger, the amount of effort it takes to get stronger still is much higher- and the amount stronger you get it much lower. If you can do 10 push-ups day 1 and train for 2 weeks, you might be able to increase your push-up count to 20. Wow, double! If you train for another month, you might only increase that to 25, though. Good progress, but still not as much as the first one. Train for another 2 months, and you might get to 30. Ouch, that's rough. Not quite real life numbers, but as someone who's done serious strength training in the past, that's how it works. Neither time spent nor muscle gained is linear in reality.I agree 100% with what you said, but I never said leveling should be linear at any point. I did say that the highest levels should be nearly unattainable, and I said this because it should be progressively more difficult to achieve each level.I said that fitness and strength of the average person should be 5. In this game you can be 1-10. 5 is the median point, so that's the average of the scale and that's the level my character started at, without any trait buffs, to the best of my knowledge. I've read on these forums many times that our abilities as characters needs to be based on what the 'Average Joe' can or can not do. So my Average Joe character starts at level 5. 5 is the mid point of the fitness/strength scale. Why wouldn't 5 be considered average?Each level should be harder to obtain than the last. Level 7 should be harder to obtain than 6 was, 8 should be even harder than obtaining 7 was, etc and level 10 should be nearly unrealistic to ever obtain. But, exponentially harder? That's insane IMO. It takes what 30,000 to go from 5-6 right? So 900,000,000 to go from 6-7 then if we want it to have an exponential increase? And 810,000,000,000,000,000 to go from 7-8. And 8-9 would take 6.561e+35 or in more understandable terms it would be easier to flap my arms and land on the moon. 9-10... Won't bother.My only point has been that increasing from average to slightly above average should be quicker than it currently is. 2 months of hard physical labor and the Average Joe would see an improvement in their strength and fitness. I am not saying reaching the ultimate pinnacle of strength and fitness should be easier or quicker to obtain. Adamiks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I agree 100% with what you said, but I never said leveling should be linear at any point. I did say that the highest levels should be nearly unattainable, and I said this because it should be progressively more difficult to achieve each level.I said that fitness and strength of the average person should be 5. In this game you can be 1-10. 5 is the median point, so that's the average of the scale and that's the level my character started at, without any trait buffs, to the best of my knowledge. I've read on these forums many times that our abilities as characters needs to be based on what the 'Average Joe' can or can not do.So my Average Joe character starts at level 5. 5 is the mid point of the fitness/strength scale. Why wouldn't 5 be considered average?Each level should be harder to obtain than the last. Level 7 should be harder to obtain than 6 was, 8 should be even harder than obtaining 7 was, etc and level 10 should be nearly unrealistic to ever obtain. But, exponentially harder? That's insane IMO. It takes what 30,000 to go from 5-6 right? So 900,000,000 to go from 6-7 then if we want it to have an exponential increase? And 810,000,000,000,000,000 to go from 7-8. And 8-9 would take 6.561e+35 or in more understandable terms it would be easier to flap my arms and land on the moon. 9-10... Won't bother.My only point has been that increasing from average to slightly above average should be quicker than it currently is. 2 months of hard physical labor and the Average Joe would see an improvement in their strength and fitness. I am not saying reaching the ultimate pinnacle of strength and fitness should be easier or quicker to obtain. If you'd prefer logarithmic to exponential that's fine, my point was just that it's non-linear. My question is, why should 5 be "average". In the scale of actual strength if you consider the "average" person compared to the strongest person in the world, the average person doesn't fall in the middle between the strongest and weakest human being. He falls way over towards the side of the weakest (towards a 3). Looking at pull-ups, I'd say the average person can only do between about 0 and 2 (given that most obese people can't pull up their own body weight, and statistically speaking that's somewhere close to 1/3 of the population currently). Then you look at the "10" end of the scale, where someone can basically do pull-ups until you're bored (me 4 years ago... what have you done to me, time?!). As far as average strength, the average person doesn't come anywhere near 5. My argument is that the scale we see on PZ is not an average-person-o-meter, it's a strength-o-meter. And in that regard, I think the current system makes more sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKaspar Posted September 7, 2015 Share Posted September 7, 2015 I say it's average because (again I haven't checked this weekend) my 'Average Joe' character started at level 5 without any traits that would buff him. If 5 isn't average, then my character is starting above what the average Joe would be at. If that's the case then some balancing needs to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamiks Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 I agree about all tha Average Joe and stuff. And it's almost exactly my point - average levels shouldn't be so hard to obtain. For example on level 6, above average you need 30000 points and on level 10, demi-god you need 150000. 5x30000=150000. If reaching level 10 is fail of devs then why level 6 is so hard to obtain compared to "you shouldn't reach it" level (10)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blasted_Taco Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I agree about all tha Average Joe and stuff. And it's almost exactly my point - average levels shouldn't be so hard to obtain. For example on level 6, above average you need 30000 points and on level 10, demi-god you need 150000. 5x30000=150000. If reaching level 10 is fail of devs then why level 6 is so hard to obtain compared to "you shouldn't reach it" level (10)? Rathlord made a good example of why this happens and i can confirm how it feels and it sucks (The progression of Stamina/Building strength in real life) Generally speaking, as you get stronger, the amount of effort it takes to get stronger still is much higher- and the amount stronger you get it much lower. If you can do 10 push-ups day 1 and train for 2 weeks, you might be able to increase your push-up count to 20. Wow, double! If you train for another month, you might only increase that to 25, though. Good progress, but still not as much as the first one. Train for another 2 months, and you might get to 30. Ouch, that's rough. And i think i even explained it that the same thing happens in the game here: -Make a character with equppied with a Fork and the lowest strengh possible (feeble or weak 4 carrying capacity i think).-Use a fork to cut down 13 trees i thinkYou now can see a increase in strength, you should evolve from 4 carrying to 6, want to hit 8 carrying capacity? Cut down 20 trees with a fork, now you can understand the fucking pain that is training that skill from the lowest point to the NORMAL point of the game, 20 trees with a fork is a fucking chore that will take you almost 1 week in game of pure tree-fork action. Going above the average (which is not 5 i believe) is hard because you already are in some sort of sense "not strong but not weak either", if you start from the bottom trait wise, is easier to level up to reach the normal status of strength. Level 6 is hard to reach because you are already kinda strong, that's about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamiks Posted September 8, 2015 Author Share Posted September 8, 2015 My point is - there is too small diference in point beetwen above "kinda strong" and "demi-god". End levels should require more points or average less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Fisher Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I think it's fine as-is. I always play with the strong trait, so I barely ever feel a need to get it higher. And, Blasted_Taco, the avaerage level, without trait buffs, is five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireOnAsphalt Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 There are two sayings that come to mind about this topic: 1. "Patience is a virtue."2. "The best things in life take time." When I discovered the secondary skills page, I looked at the experience required to rank up and thought to myself: "Woah, that's a ton!" I'm about a month and a half into my current survival game, and I'm little less than a third of the way to ranking up my fitness, and about a 1/4th of the way to my strength. I've killed approximately 1500 zombies with various weapons, but my preferred weapon is my bare hands. I didn't even look at these skills on my current character until I saw this thread pop up a short while ago, and I thought to myself: "Wow, these are filling up much faster than I anticipated!" (For the record, my character has a 5 in fitness and a 6 in strength.) I guess another few quotes comes to mind from the famous Bruce Lee, often regarded as one of the most successful and dangerous martial artists of all time: 1. "A goal is not always meant to be reached; it often serves simply as something to aim at."2. "If you spend too much time thinking about a thing, you'll never get it done." What I'm trying to say is that while these skills are the most difficult to rank-up, think of how happy you'll be once you do rank them up. One day, as you're carrying logs or fighting zombies or looting a cupboard for some canned tomatoes, you'll look at your inventory and notice you can carry an extra few pounds. One day, as you're sprinting across West Point from the rural district to the downtown district or spend an entire day nailing zeds with a baseball bat, you'll notice you haven't become fatigued nearly as quickly as you used to. Those are your rewards for patience; an improved quality of life and stronger self. Life isn't always about the destination; the travel to the end is what makes you the person you are when you reach your goal. Johnny Fisher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I guess another few quotes comes to mind from the famous Bruce Lee, often regarded as one of the most successful and dangerous martial artists of all time: Man I was hoping for a Lee Sin quote there. Instead I got Bruce Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireOnAsphalt Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 I guess another few quotes comes to mind from the famous Bruce Lee, often regarded as one of the most successful and dangerous martial artists of all time: Man I was hoping for a Lee Sin quote there. Instead I got Bruce Lee. "Blindness is no impairment against a smelly enemy." - Lee Sin Rathlord 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKaspar Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Does strength and fitness degrade overtime? Like if you sit in your safe house doing next to nothing, will your strength and fitness decrease? I have never bothered to check this.If it does not decrease, then I don't think we should be starting at level 5. We should start at level 1 and feeble should start at 0.If it does decrease, I think starting at the midpoint is a good representation of average. Maybe some balancing needs to be done to make it more realistic.Maybe losing fitness and strength XP (if it actually does happen) should be faster and also obtaining a level slightly above average should be easier to obtain (XP point wise) as well assuming you are exerting yourself everyday? For instance if I sit around my safe house for a week or two because I broke my foot, that should take a pretty big hit to my fitness and strength level. Currently I don't think it does.This would make it extremely difficult to level your fitness and strength to the max levels all the while keeping the average player right around average. They might gain a level or two, but if they don't keep at it they'll lose it. Just like in real life. TLDR: Make it easier to go up in levels, but also easier to go down in levels. This way every camp in the discussion wins It remains extremely difficult to reach the pinnacle, but you will see improvement sooner if you work hard at it. If you don't, or cant, you'll lose what you gained and may end up lower than where you started. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 If it doesn't degrade now, it's definitely in the list of things they want it to do. CaptKaspar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobchaos Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Leveling up fitness and strength is more about preventing degradation (when it's in) than actually get stronger if you ask me. It's fine like that too, as pointed out by half the posters on this thread, getting in shape takes a long while and constant work. *edit* Rath you sure it's not in? I could've sworn fitness degradation was already a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptKaspar Posted September 8, 2015 Share Posted September 8, 2015 Leveling up fitness and strength is more about preventing degradation (when it's in) than actually get stronger if you ask me. It's fine like that too, as pointed out by half the posters on this thread, getting in shape takes a long while and constant work. *edit* Rath you sure it's not in? I could've sworn fitness degradation was already a thing. Sounds like we have some testing to do! Testing to see if fitness and strength degrade overtime is going to be really really boring to test though. I mean the TV and radio broadcasts aren't in yet, so sitting around the house eating chips all day with nothing to do but read... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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