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Some realism inconsistencies

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There are a lot of things in the game that are not realistic, mostly that they disallow something that we would usually do in real-life, and on top of that some are inconsistent with others. If you cannot think of any examples right now, I do have a few which I will post below.

 

  1. Wine as disinfectant
    Why can't we use wine as disinfectant? Wine usually contains higher amounts of alcohol than regular alcoholic drinks and that makes it a better disinfectant than most.
     
  2. Cologne or aftershave with alcohol make a disinfectant
    I've noticed that in the game there is cologne, and I tried to use it as a disinfectant but simply couldn't. So I would assume that was an alcohol-free cologne, however most colognes contain alcohol and could be used as a disinfectant for smaller wounds. Same goes for aftershave, which I don't think is even in the game.
     
  3. A dirty and a bloody rag are a world apart
    Dirty rag is not the same as a bloody rag. Bloody rag, given that blood is your own, will not heighten the risk of wound infection and/or slowdown healing process. On the other hand, dirty rag does heighten the risk of infection and may slowdown the process of self-healing. Dirty rag would be created by particles not from our own body and bacteria found on foreign objects. Also, as a side not, I do believe that the rag gets dirty a bit too quickly, even when you're just standing and not doing anything.
     
  4. Zombies break glass in vacuum
    As the title suggest, seems like when a player breaks glass, it actually creates enough noise that it alerts nearby zombies, however, when a zombie does that, it seems like no one cares. This is also easily abused, due to AI, if you are trying to get somewhere, out or in, you can easily get a zombie to break that for you, since seems like when zombie breaks glass it creates vacuum around the particles so sound doesn't travel. Well, jokes aside, you get the point.
     
  5. Kitchen knife is made of plastic
    To put it simply; kitchen knife really breaks annoyingly fast. It has a metal blade, and anything metal won't break so easily just buy cutting into flesh, especially not by cutting into something; a kitchen knife is made to cut through meat and even bone. A golf club would break faster than a knife, for many reasons, such as the fact that knife has a blade and golf club doesn't.
     
  6. Unable to cross/jump over sofa, table, TV tablet, small cupboard, etc.
    More often than not some windows of the house are completely blocked by sofas, TV tables, tables or some other furniture. When realistically we should be able to squeeze in between or cross/jump over it, we can't. A lot of times I'd find myself jumping through the window and being completely blocked from accessing the rest of the house by 2 sofas or a sofa and a table. Zombies couldn't get me either. It is annoying, especially when that window is the only one that can open.
     
  7. Door windows should be windows
    Some doors have windows on them, the annoying thing is that those windows are only windows on the texture of the model; we cannot see through them. Nor can we close/open or remove curtains on said door windows.
     
  8. Window blinds are only decorative
    We cannot close/open window blinds on windows that have them, they just seem to be cosmetic part of the world. Closing window blinds would require you to peek to see through them and vision would be limited, but vision would be limited both ways and outer blinds would need to be broken first before the window if closed, or if inner blinds, then they would serve as additional protection after the window is broken.
     
  9. Immovable garage doors
    As the title suggests, garage doors are simply immovable. I believe that they should be movable, not simply because it's logical, but also because they can make many spaces less open and give additional protection, as it should be.

 

There's probably a lot more that I could think of, but this is just what I got on top of my head.

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1. I don't know whether Wine would be strong enough to use as a disinfectant, but as a general rule Wine tends to be ~10% alcohol content, whereas whisky tends to be more along the lines of ~40%. I know that historically Wine WAS used to disinfect wounds, but usually as part of a more complex mixture.

2. As above, I don't know if aftershave would have enough alcohol in it to be a valid disinfectant. Maybe it would, maybe not.

Perhaps we need a new perk - Resourceful - that can use less conventional items like these for these purposes? Just an idea.

3. True, but I think for gameplay sake it's something that doesn't really need changing. Theres a point where being too realistic and details makes the game less fun.

4. I didn't realise this, but if its the case then I fully agree.

5. Kitchen knives are made for cutting, not stabbing. They are strong across their cutting edge, but most will be pretty flimsy when bent sideways for example. I think having a powerful attack and low durability is a good way to represent this, and people who know how to avoid the damage will have it last longer (blade maintenance)

6. I've noticed this and agree - unfortunately I can't really think of a good way to solve the issue.

7. Fully agree with this.

8. Makes sense, but I've honestly never even noticed them so I wouldn't say its a huge priority.

9. Fully agree with this one too.

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Some of these valid points, some of them pretty far off of reality.

 


  1. Wine as disinfectant
    Why can't we use wine as disinfectant? Wine usually contains higher amounts of alcohol than regular alcoholic drinks and that makes it a better disinfectant than most.

 

Wine actually has lower alcohol content than all other common drinking alcohols except for beer.

 

 


  1. A dirty and a bloody rag are a world apart
    Dirty rag is not the same as a bloody rag. Bloody rag, given that blood is your own, will not heighten the risk of wound infection and/or slowdown healing process. On the other hand, dirty rag does heighten the risk of infection and may slowdown the process of self-healing. Dirty rag would be created by particles not from our own body and bacteria found on foreign objects. Also, as a side not, I do believe that the rag gets dirty a bit too quickly, even when you're just standing and not doing anything.

 

Rags with your blood on them definitely, definitely can and will get infected.

 

 


 

  1. Kitchen knife is made of plastic
    To put it simply; kitchen knife really breaks annoyingly fast. It has a metal blade, and anything metal won't break so easily just buy cutting into flesh, especially not by cutting into something; a kitchen knife is made to cut through meat and even bone. A golf club would break faster than a knife, for many reasons, such as the fact that knife has a blade and golf club doesn't.

 

Kitchen knives don't handle stabbing at all well. You seem to have forgotten that people have bones in them as well as flesh. You can't kill a zombie without at least winging a bit of bone. I broke a kitchen knife the other day cutting pizza. They aren't as durable as you think.

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Some of these valid points, some of them pretty far off of reality.

 

  • Wine as disinfectant

    Why can't we use wine as disinfectant? Wine usually contains higher amounts of alcohol than regular alcoholic drinks and that makes it a better disinfectant than most.

 

Wine actually has lower alcohol content than all other common drinking alcohols except for beer.

 

 

 

  • A dirty and a bloody rag are a world apart

    Dirty rag is not the same as a bloody rag. Bloody rag, given that blood is your own, will not heighten the risk of wound infection and/or slowdown healing process. On the other hand, dirty rag does heighten the risk of infection and may slowdown the process of self-healing. Dirty rag would be created by particles not from our own body and bacteria found on foreign objects. Also, as a side not, I do believe that the rag gets dirty a bit too quickly, even when you're just standing and not doing anything.

 

 

Rags with your blood on them definitely, definitely can and will get infected.

 

 

 

  • Kitchen knife is made of plastic

    To put it simply; kitchen knife really breaks annoyingly fast. It has a metal blade, and anything metal won't break so easily just buy cutting into flesh, especially not by cutting into something; a kitchen knife is made to cut through meat and even bone. A golf club would break faster than a knife, for many reasons, such as the fact that knife has a blade and golf club doesn't.

 

 

Kitchen knives don't handle stabbing at all well. You seem to have forgotten that people have bones in them as well as flesh. You can't kill a zombie without at least winging a bit of bone. I broke a kitchen knife the other day cutting pizza. They aren't as durable as you think.

 

None of these are far off the reality, to the contrary, these are based on pure realism.

 

Wine can be used as disinfectant. I study biology and if you have a medicine or biology book about bacteria, look it up, in case you don't. The percentage of alcohol is exact equivalent of time it will take to destroy bacteria. Most wine has from 12%-15% alcohol in it, whilst some have over 20%. It was used as a disinfectant in ancient Greece even.

On some forms of microorganisms it will act faster, on some slower, but it will definitely act. The higher the percentage of alcohol, the better.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_wine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2122476/

Blood does not magically get infected just because it is exposed to air, this is human anatomy 101. Otherwise the blood in our system would be infected as well. Wounds get infected, not blood. Please, don't speak the topic you know little of. I am genuinely sorry if I sounded rude there, it was not my intention, but to make a point, however, what you were saying was simply not true.

The knife we are talking about is a kitchen knife, made to cut through things. It won't break so easily from stabbing... how do you think people get over 40 stab wounds? Try stabbing a melon constantly and see the days go past before the knife breaking.

 

1. I don't know whether Wine would be strong enough to use as a disinfectant, but as a general rule Wine tends to be ~10% alcohol content, whereas whisky tends to be more along the lines of ~40%. I know that historically Wine WAS used to disinfect wounds, but usually as part of a more complex mixture.

2. As above, I don't know if aftershave would have enough alcohol in it to be a valid disinfectant. Maybe it would, maybe not.

Perhaps we need a new perk - Resourceful - that can use less conventional items like these for these purposes? Just an idea.

3. True, but I think for gameplay sake it's something that doesn't really need changing. Theres a point where being too realistic and details makes the game less fun.

4. I didn't realise this, but if its the case then I fully agree.

5. Kitchen knives are made for cutting, not stabbing. They are strong across their cutting edge, but most will be pretty flimsy when bent sideways for example. I think having a powerful attack and low durability is a good way to represent this, and people who know how to avoid the damage will have it last longer (blade maintenance)

6. I've noticed this and agree - unfortunately I can't really think of a good way to solve the issue.

7. Fully agree with this.

8. Makes sense, but I've honestly never even noticed them so I wouldn't say its a huge priority.

9. Fully agree with this one too.

As I said above: everything with 10% of alcohol and above works, it just takes more time to kill bacteria, depending on type of bacteria. During civil war alcoholic drinks were used to successfully disinfect wounds. Cologne usually has over 80% of alcohol in it.

This game is absolutely about realism, and realism is fun. As I said, this is about inconsistencies in realism, where somethings just follow it whilst others for some reason don't.

Melon is a very, very, very good representation of human head/skull. Try stabbing it with a knife and see how many days of constant stabbing it takes for knife to break. You can use ballistic gelatin too.

 

7-We can close the curtains

Please, there is a clear difference between window blinds and curtains. I even explained that.

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Some of these valid points, some of them pretty far off of reality.

 

  • Wine as disinfectant

    Why can't we use wine as disinfectant? Wine usually contains higher amounts of alcohol than regular alcoholic drinks and that makes it a better disinfectant than most.

 

Wine actually has lower alcohol content than all other common drinking alcohols except for beer.

 

 

 

  • A dirty and a bloody rag are a world apart

    Dirty rag is not the same as a bloody rag. Bloody rag, given that blood is your own, will not heighten the risk of wound infection and/or slowdown healing process. On the other hand, dirty rag does heighten the risk of infection and may slowdown the process of self-healing. Dirty rag would be created by particles not from our own body and bacteria found on foreign objects. Also, as a side not, I do believe that the rag gets dirty a bit too quickly, even when you're just standing and not doing anything.

 

 

Rags with your blood on them definitely, definitely can and will get infected.

 

 

 

  • Kitchen knife is made of plastic

    To put it simply; kitchen knife really breaks annoyingly fast. It has a metal blade, and anything metal won't break so easily just buy cutting into flesh, especially not by cutting into something; a kitchen knife is made to cut through meat and even bone. A golf club would break faster than a knife, for many reasons, such as the fact that knife has a blade and golf club doesn't.

 

 

Kitchen knives don't handle stabbing at all well. You seem to have forgotten that people have bones in them as well as flesh. You can't kill a zombie without at least winging a bit of bone. I broke a kitchen knife the other day cutting pizza. They aren't as durable as you think.

 

None of these are far off the reality, to the contrary, these are based on pure realism.

 

Wine can be used as disinfectant. I study biology and if you have a medicine or biology book about bacteria, look it up, in case you don't. The percentage of alcohol is exact equivalent of time it will take to destroy bacteria. Most wine has from 12%-15% alcohol in it, whilst some have over 20%. It was used as a disinfectant in ancient Greece even.

On some forms of microorganisms it will act faster, on some slower, but it will definitely act. The higher the percentage of alcohol, the better.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_wine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2122476/

Blood does not magically get infected just because it is exposed to air, this is human anatomy 101. Otherwise the blood in our system would be infected as well. Wounds get infected, not blood. Please, don't speak the topic you know little of. I am genuinely sorry if I sounded rude there, it was not my intention, but to make a point, however, what you were saying was simply not true.

The knife we are talking about is a kitchen knife, made to cut through things. It won't break so easily from stabbing... how do you think people get over 40 stab wounds? Try stabbing a melon constantly and see the days go past before the knife breaking.

 

I didn't say wine couldn't be used as disinfectant, now did I? Maybe before telling someone else they don't know what they're talking about, you should actually read what they're saying. I said it had less alcohol than other alcoholic drinks except for beer (unlike your claim in the OP). [1]

 

The irony of you telling me I don't know what I'm talking about continues with the bloody rags bit. It doesn't "magically" get infected, it gets infected because it's exposed to all of the viruses and bacteria floating around in the air [2]. Hilariously, though, you're even more wrong; blood does indeed get infected in our system, it's called sepsis or a "blood infection" and is quite common [3][4][5]. This happens when the inside of the body is exposed to viruses and bacteria outside of it (sound familiar, just like the rag!). This is a common and life threatening condition with up to 3 million cases a year in the US alone.

 

Cutting and stabbing is not the same thing. The forces exerted on a blade are completely different. Further, kitchen knives also frequently break at the hilt, not the blade. They're frequently attached with cheap molded plastic [6] (the metal pulls through or out of this easily) or with rivets [7] (also frequently cheap which snap when exposed to sudden pressure). You don't exert sudden pressure on things with kitchen knives- they're meant to be gently pushed through food. Kitchen knives are made for cutting, not stabbing, and it shows [8]. You can kill a living human being with a kitchen knife because you can stab them in fleshy areas repeatedly without putting too much pressure on the blade and handle. You can't do this with zombies, because you have to stab them in the brain, which is surrounded by one of the toughest bones in the body when exposed to piercing.

 

 

Citations

[1] http://cdn.quitalcohol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/alcohol-content-wine-beer-liquor.jpg

[2] http://www.emedicinehealth.com/care_for_a_skin_wound-health/article_em.htm

[3] http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sepsis/basics/definition/con-20031900

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepsis

[5] http://www.cdc.gov/sepsis/

[6] http://files.recipetips.com/kitchen/images/refimages/kitchen_advice/knives/types%20of%20knives/knife.jpg

[7] http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/Mzg1WDgwMA==/z/P3UAAOSwQItUEp2n/$_32.JPG

[8] 

 

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Typing this in bursts because phone:

Myself and many others have already debated the durability of kitchen knives, and the consensus seems to be "not very". And since you want to bring personal expertise into this, have you ever tried doing woodwork with a kitchen knife? I have. It ended poorly for both myself and the knife (which didn't just chip, mind you. It shattered like glass). And this wasn't a cheap Wal-Mart knife either. Bone is far denser than wood, do the math.

As for wine as disinfectant, the citation about ancient Romans and Greeks using wine as antiseptic is a bit irrelevant in this case. Modern wines are nowhere near the alcohol content of what was used for medical purposes. And while it still does indeed fight infection, it takes days, not minutes compared to distilled alcohol. With a serious enough infection, you'd be dead before it would have any noticable effect.

Bloody bandages don't quite equal clean bandages, no. But they're definately not sterile. Unless you're seriously overdoing it with the bandages, dust and dirt particles will still stick around, and need to be removed and redressed regularly to prevent environmental pathogens like tetanus. They should be changed daily in a clean environment, bit the situation isn't quite the same when the world is over.

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Some of these valid points, some of them pretty far off of reality.

 

  • Wine as disinfectant

    Why can't we use wine as disinfectant? Wine usually contains higher amounts of alcohol than regular alcoholic drinks and that makes it a better disinfectant than most.

 

Wine actually has lower alcohol content than all other common drinking alcohols except for beer.

 

 

 

  • A dirty and a bloody rag are a world apart

    Dirty rag is not the same as a bloody rag. Bloody rag, given that blood is your own, will not heighten the risk of wound infection and/or slowdown healing process. On the other hand, dirty rag does heighten the risk of infection and may slowdown the process of self-healing. Dirty rag would be created by particles not from our own body and bacteria found on foreign objects. Also, as a side not, I do believe that the rag gets dirty a bit too quickly, even when you're just standing and not doing anything.

 

 

Rags with your blood on them definitely, definitely can and will get infected.

 

 

 

  • Kitchen knife is made of plastic

    To put it simply; kitchen knife really breaks annoyingly fast. It has a metal blade, and anything metal won't break so easily just buy cutting into flesh, especially not by cutting into something; a kitchen knife is made to cut through meat and even bone. A golf club would break faster than a knife, for many reasons, such as the fact that knife has a blade and golf club doesn't.

 

 

Kitchen knives don't handle stabbing at all well. You seem to have forgotten that people have bones in them as well as flesh. You can't kill a zombie without at least winging a bit of bone. I broke a kitchen knife the other day cutting pizza. They aren't as durable as you think.

 

None of these are far off the reality, to the contrary, these are based on pure realism.

 

Wine can be used as disinfectant. I study biology and if you have a medicine or biology book about bacteria, look it up, in case you don't. The percentage of alcohol is exact equivalent of time it will take to destroy bacteria. Most wine has from 12%-15% alcohol in it, whilst some have over 20%. It was used as a disinfectant in ancient Greece even.

On some forms of microorganisms it will act faster, on some slower, but it will definitely act. The higher the percentage of alcohol, the better.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_effects_of_wine

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2122476/

Blood does not magically get infected just because it is exposed to air, this is human anatomy 101. Otherwise the blood in our system would be infected as well. Wounds get infected, not blood. Please, don't speak the topic you know little of. I am genuinely sorry if I sounded rude there, it was not my intention, but to make a point, however, what you were saying was simply not true.

The knife we are talking about is a kitchen knife, made to cut through things. It won't break so easily from stabbing... how do you think people get over 40 stab wounds? Try stabbing a melon constantly and see the days go past before the knife breaking.

 

I didn't say wine couldn't be used as disinfectant, now did I? Maybe before telling someone else they don't know what they're talking about, you should actually read what they're saying. I said it had less alcohol than other alcoholic drinks except for beer (unlike your claim in the OP). [1]

 

The irony of you telling me I don't know what I'm talking about continues with the bloody rags bit. It doesn't "magically" get infected, it gets infected because it's exposed to all of the viruses and bacteria floating around in the air [2]. Hilariously, though, you're even more wrong; blood does indeed get infected in our system, it's called sepsis or a "blood infection" and is quite common [3][4][5]. This happens when the inside of the body is exposed to viruses and bacteria outside of it (sound familiar, just like the rag!). This is a common and life threatening condition with up to 3 million cases a year in the US alone.

 

Cutting and stabbing is not the same thing. The forces exerted on a blade are completely different. Further, kitchen knives also frequently break at the hilt, not the blade. They're frequently attached with cheap molded plastic [6] (the metal pulls through or out of this easily) or with rivets [7] (also frequently cheap which snap when exposed to sudden pressure). You don't exert sudden pressure on things with kitchen knives- they're meant to be gently pushed through food. Kitchen knives are made for cutting, not stabbing, and it shows [8]. You can kill a living human being with a kitchen knife because you can stab them in fleshy areas repeatedly without putting too much pressure on the blade and handle. You can't do this with zombies, because you have to stab them in the brain, which is surrounded by one of the toughest bones in the body when exposed to piercing.

 

 

Citations

[1] http://cdn.quitalcohol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/alcohol-content-wine-beer-liquor.jpg

[2] http://www.emedicinehealth.com/care_for_a_skin_wound-health/article_em.htm

[3] http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/sepsis/basics/definition/con-20031900

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sepsis

[5] http://www.cdc.gov/sepsis/

[6] http://files.recipetips.com/kitchen/images/refimages/kitchen_advice/knives/types%20of%20knives/knife.jpg

[7] http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/Mzg1WDgwMA==/z/P3UAAOSwQItUEp2n/$_32.JPG

[8] 

 

 

So, wine can be used as disinfectant. Why did you then say it has lower percentage of alcohol than other beer, as that is aside the original statement? My obvious and logical conclusion was that you mean to imply otherwise.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

1. Wound infections are are most commonly caused by bacteria, not viruses. Viruses are only destroyed by our immune system, not alcohol.

2. Aeromicroorganisms are rare and they are only found in open areas. We only know of one bacteria to have any form of airborne ability and it only can be so in the state of spore. And we are speaking of longer distance aero travel, not human-to-human transmission from 2m away.

 

3. Sepsis is not any form of magical infection of our blood, it is attack on organs, most commonly by bacteria. Sepsis is not cured by drinking a lot of alcohol. Our immune system is meant to deal with most of such cases, but when our immune system fails, then sepsis is caused. Sepsis is dealt with antibiotics, not alcohol. I fail to see any correlation whastoever.

4. My point stands. Bloody rag is not a dirty rag. Blood from wound will not infect the wound it came out of, therefore it would be healthy to differentiate that blood =/= dirt. I do not see how you can claim otherwise. Do you even know how bacteria gets onto the wound to infect it in the first place? Because it doesn't magically come from the same blood that was once part of your blood stream and that wound, it comes for outer particles as I already stated, which you probably didn't read.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Now, to stabbing. So you completely missed the ballistic gelatin and melon, didn't you?

 

Yes, you are right, cutting and stabbing is not the same thing. Stabbing exerts less force due to the fact that less surface is used, surface is smaller. This is why people are stabbed, not cut.

 

Try the melon and ballistic gel example, they are the closest things to human anatomy.

And, no, human skull is very weak, our limb bones are the strongest. Again, take the melon and stab it.

An average male skull can only take 1000 Newtons, whilst a boxer can deliver over 4000. And that is not even stabbing, that is blunt force.

The smaller the knife, the easier it is to pull out - and that is the hardest part of skull-stabbing.

The weakest part of the human skull is Pterion, and it is very easy to push the knife there and pull it out.

 

In the video the only reason the knife broke is because the knife was twisted to the side. This only happens when you try to pull something out, such as piece of butter to separate it from the rest of the mass. So this is nowhere close to what we are talking about.

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Since you're being intentionally ignorant and quite rude, I'm just going to leave it at this: be more friendly. Being rude to people is against the rules of this forum, and I will ban you if you continue.

 

You seem to have massive reading comprehension issues, too, so can you please just take a breath and read what people are saying before launching into misinformed rants?

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To apply some balm...

 

I don't think that Rathlord is trying to belittle you or discount your concerns as inconsequential. Many of these topics you have presented have been brought up before and debated and talked about until the sun rose and we all went along our merry (or not so merry) way. It's just the nature of being a moderator or part of the support team: you hear it all, and you hear it quite often.

 

Simply put: Respect. While we are willing to listen and talk with you about these concerns you have, there's no reason to insult or belittle the other person because they disagree with you. Discourse is a good thing, and it amazes me that we have so much of it on these forums. It's the main reason I decided to make an account and stick around; people listen and they're respectful when they respond.

 

So Snaiper, don't be too offended or hurt when someone disagrees with your suggestions. View them more as a stepping stone towards developing your arguments in a logical and respectful way. When and if the developers notice, they'll be able to appreciate the full scope of your suggestions and be much more likely to reciprocate when they see you've been respectful and earnest during your endeavors.

 

Also, I do have two cents to throw in about the Kitchen Knife durability... And that is when you're in a moment of adrenaline-filled panic and you're doing something you'd be quite capable of doing under normal, dare I say "clinical", circumstances, you're going to find that the results of said testing are going to be quite different.

 

Hopefully I haven't overstepped my boundaries, and that's all I have to say.

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Melon is a very, very, very good representation of human head/skull.

Try the melon and ballistic gel example, they are the closest things to human anatomy.

And, no, human skull is very weak, our limb bones are the strongest. Again, take the melon and stab it.

An average male skull can only take 1000 Newtons, whilst a boxer can deliver over 4000. And that is not even stabbing, that is blunt force.

Jump to 8:40

In the video the only reason the knife broke is because the knife was twisted to the side. This only happens when you try to pull something out, such as piece of butter to separate it from the rest of the mass. So this is nowhere close to what we are talking about.

A zombie skull might move so that your knife snaps.

 

human anatomy 101

If the bandage is not sterile then there are bacteria on it. If your skin is not sterile then there are bacteria on it. If you are bleeding then the bandage is wet. Blood is made to be nutritious for your cells, and bacteria may find it nutritious too. Bacteria may start multiplying in the blood. You may end up with a bandage with blood with bacteria with a taste for blood.

 

...close/open window blinds on windows that have them...

Good idea.

Edited by Gaffa Tape Warrior

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Melon is a very, very, very good representation of human head/skull.

Try the melon and ballistic gel example, they are the closest things to human anatomy.

And, no, human skull is very weak, our limb bones are the strongest. Again, take the melon and stab it.

An average male skull can only take 1000 Newtons, whilst a boxer can deliver over 4000. And that is not even stabbing, that is blunt force.

In the video the only reason the knife broke is because the knife was twisted to the side. This only happens when you try to pull something out, such as piece of butter to separate it from the rest of the mass. So this is nowhere close to what we are talking about.

A zombie skull might move so that your knife snaps.

 

human anatomy 101

If the bandage is not sterile then there are bacteria on it. If your skin is not sterile then there are bacteria on it. If you are bleeding then the bandage is wet. Blood is made to be nutritious for your cells, and bacteria may find it nutritious too. Bacteria may start multiplying in the blood. You may end up with a bandage with blood with bacteria with a taste for blood.

...close/open window blinds on windows that have them...

Good idea.

 

 

did that girl just rub the edge of the sword with her hand??? i am pretty sure something isn't right there....

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I like your ideas about the blinds. I'm not sure if you mean the same about the shutters, but I'd love to see the houses with shutters being able to be closed. Could add a bit of durability to the windows!

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Melon is a very, very, very good representation of human head/skull.

Try the melon and ballistic gel example, they are the closest things to human anatomy.

And, no, human skull is very weak, our limb bones are the strongest. Again, take the melon and stab it.

An average male skull can only take 1000 Newtons, whilst a boxer can deliver over 4000. And that is not even stabbing, that is blunt force.

Jump to 8:40

In the video the only reason the knife broke is because the knife was twisted to the side. This only happens when you try to pull something out, such as piece of butter to separate it from the rest of the mass. So this is nowhere close to what we are talking about.

A zombie skull might move so that your knife snaps.

 

human anatomy 101

If the bandage is not sterile then there are bacteria on it. If your skin is not sterile then there are bacteria on it. If you are bleeding then the bandage is wet. Blood is made to be nutritious for your cells, and bacteria may find it nutritious too. Bacteria may start multiplying in the blood. You may end up with a bandage with blood with bacteria with a taste for blood.

 

...close/open window blinds on windows that have them...

Good idea.

 

 

I think the OP is talking about "Melon"

 

Juan%20Canary%20Melon.jpg

 

 

and not "Watermelon"

 

watermelon.jpg

 

These fruits are very different in matters of overall hardness...

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A melon 'may' some what accurately represent general human anatomy for ballistic testing, but the idea that a melon is a close representation to a skull is absurd. Feel your head, feel a melon. Not much more science is needed than that. While I am not a student in biology, I would venture to guess that the melon evolved (or was created) to allow an animal to get into it (like most fruits), eat the seeds, and then dispose of the seeds elsewhere. The human skull evolved (or was created) for an entirely different purpose. They are not similar in either hardness or strength. I suppose you could create a batch of ballistic gel that is designed to replicate the skull, but ballistic gel in general is designed to test ballistics against the body mass center of a target, not the skull.

 

Strictly from an anatomy perspective, the skull's purpose is to protect the organ within it. It is designed to take impacts and not to be structurally load bearing. The femur is the strongest (which measures an object's resistance to stress and strain) bone because its designed to be load bearing. The hardest (which measures how resistant an object is to shape change or fracturing) bone in the human body is part of the Temporal bone, which by the way is in the skull. The skull's purpose is to protect that gray matter within it that you would be otherwise dead without. Strong and hard are not the same thing in physics, so we need to stop using those terms interchangeably if we want to have any credibility as being knowledgeable about them.

 

If you want to do a test: Punch a melon and punch the top of someone's head. Come back and let us know which you think is harder. The skull is not uniform in hardness, and neither is a melon, so let us know how that works out. I'd rather be the one being punched in the top of the head, than the one punching the top of someone's head.

 

Why do 'clean' hospitals change bloody bandages if they are not a risk? Why do first aid guides tell me to regularly re-dress and clean wounds if the bloody bandage was not a risk? Shouldn't I be able to leave a bloody bandage in place as long as it doesn't get 'dirty'? Yet, basic first-aid does not recommend doing this. If you are able to, you are recommended to change and re-dress the bandaging regularly.

 

Kitchen knives can not handle much rotational torque along the blade or moment force applied at the tip. Good luck avoiding that when the blade glances off the curved skull. They are designed for slicing along their edge, not penetrating with their tip. Beyond that, like Rathlord said, you are more likely to break the handle than the blade.

 

The Skull is also not flat, and that makes it very difficult to effectively have an impact at 90 degrees. This means that your horizontal distance through the bone is increased at a blow of anything other than 90 degrees and effectively increases the 'thickness' of the bone. Search for info on sloped armor, its the same concept.

 

Claiming to be a student of any field, does not make you a credible expert. I don't think as a student you've earned the right and respect to assume you are more knowledgeable on a subject than anyone else. We all live in the information age.

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I sense a great disturbance in the forums. As though a bunch of people are getting really riled up for no good reason.

 

Please, peace and calm. Let us look at each item in the initial post on a rational basis, and not senselessly challenge one another. 

 

[Read: I'd been following this thread a bit, and it's getting ugly. Calm down, folks. We're all here for the same good cause. Let me take a look and apply what knowledge I can. Maybe clarify things a little.]

 

On points 1 and 2, using wine, beer or cologne on wounds as a disinfectant agent is not going to yield any significant benefit. There are studies of varying academic merit out there, but I'll give you what I -know- and let you do further research on your own. Wine is low in alcohol, and high in sugars. What research is easily found via an internet search suggests strongly that it would take -days- to kill off most bacteria with most commonly found wines. Beer has generally lower alcohol content than that. Both are sugar heavy which may in fact provide a better breeding environment for bacteria. Colognes however, would likely yield a better result, as most are in the 80-90% alcohol range. However, they also contain perfume oils and other elements that may cause significant health issues when applied to open wounds. None of these things would be considered medically advisable. 

 

Grain alcohol, whiskey, really anything above about 140 proof would do a decent job of it, and there's a wealth of data available about such things. 

 

Point three is categorically false. Bacteria and viruses both can be transmitted through a whole host of methods. Bacteria exist on every bit of the surface of your skin. In your mouth and sinus cavities, in your navel, under your arms, and from start to finish of your digestive tract. Every surface you touch on a daily basis is quite likely to have a few different strains of bacteria on it, and if it didn't before you touched it, it does after you did. 

 

This matters because a bloody bandage is a high humidity, warm environment with a lot of fluid protein. Basically, a great place for all of that bacteria to grow and breed. Whether you describe that bandage as "bloody" or "dirty" is largely irrelevant. 

 

Point four has been brought up in other places, I am certain. I might edit this later to link other discussions if it seems relevant and necessary. 

 

Point five seems to be a hot button, so I'd like to clarify first my position of knowledge. I am a professional cook, a collector of knives and other similar items, and an amateur historian of those similar items. My knowledge is somewhat diverse, but not as deep as a dedicated steel worker, or physicist. A steel worker could tell you -all- of the different kinds of steel, and why they use what they use. A physicist could give you the mathematical layout of the action of stabbing, with a breakdown of every impact and stress on both people, and the tool used. I can only give you the primer on these things, or information about their history and evolution.

 

First, most kitchen knives are 420 stainless steel. As far as steel is concerned, at .38% carbon, they are soft metal. Unsuitable for holding an edge for a significant length of time. They are most often machine stamped, a method that is meant to be quick, but cares little for the quality of the metal or the edge. These knives are more often than not half-tang in a plastic handle with ill-fitting rivets of equally soft metal. They would serve in a home kitchen reliably for a few years if well treated, but were never meant to be a permanent solution. Finding a good quality knife is a rare thing, you wouldn't go to your local grocer for it. As a professional cook, I admire the cutlery of serious chefs. I -wish- the tools we used were half as good. 

 

What this means is that the knives you'd find in your neighbor's kitchen are cheap. They are made to be profitable at low prices, which means they are made quickly and poorly. The weakness of the metal and the light-duty nature of the handle, tang and bolster make it a poor choice for any serious work. That it doesn't snap off the first time you try to shove it past bone structure is something of a miracle, honestly.

 

Any significant torque or stress at the handle and you run a good risk of bending the soft steel or breaking it entirely. Stabbing a zombie in the face is a good source of torque and stress. Not to mention how significantly likely you are to cut your own hands attempting it. 

 

 

Point six is fair, there are a lot of items that currently act as a full barricade that probably need re-visiting. I'd like more interaction with furniture and am looking forward to the next major update. Here's hoping those get looked at.

 

Point seven is another valid one, I'll set aside that many door windows are obfuscating windows, translucent but not transparent, it might be worth looking into, having an entry point that also doubles as a point of external visibility. 

 

Point eight is at least partially valid. Window blinds aren't exactly the sturdiest or best mounted creations, so the thought that they might add additional security doesn't make sense to me. They should, however operate as blinds do. I hadn't noticed this before.

 

Point nine definitely needs a look, I think. Having to sledge my way into someone's garage doesn't make a lick o' sense. I'm pretty sure it's been brought up elsewhere. If I need amend this, I'll try to include what information I can. 

 

I'd like to ask everyone to take a moment. Take a breath, remember that we're all on the same side here, even if we disagree on -how- to make it happen, we all want PZ to be a -stellar- zombie experience. 

 

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I've given you facts and I've given you credible sources. Not a single thing I said is untrue. Not a single one. I do not have time to take pictures of books for you to see them and the thread seems like it, for some reason, got some people offended, as if I was insulting someone by saying that some things are nonsensical in an early-development state game.

So, if anyone wishes to carry on this argument, go on, but there is no need for hostility.


Lastly, I will just clarify some things:

Both honeydew and watermelon are very, very, very good representations of human skull. Honeydew because its crust is thicker and thus harder to penetrate, so it represents human skull better. Watermelon because it has a crust and soft inside, just like human skull with brain and inner tissue. Another good representation of human skull is coconut.

 

Wine is not a perfect disinfectant, it not as good as whiskey, but people have successfully used it as such for thousands of years, best example I think would be Civil War and ancient Greece - it was very often used there to disinfect wounds and it was used very successfully. The main disadvantage it has is the amount of sugar that some forms have.

Not all colognes and aftershaves have alcohol, but a lot of them do, and those that do have alcohol, have 80%+ in them, which makes them very good as a disinfectant.

When we are talking about infections here, we are talking about bacterial infections, considering that the best remedy for viral infections is your own immunity system, and alcohol/disinfectant plays almost no role there.
 

Talking about knives, there are a lot of different types. Usually hunting knives are superior to kitchen knives, but when I say "kitchen knife" I mean the more of a butcher kind knife, the one that is meant to cut through all soft tissue, but can also cut through bone. However, one thing to note about knives is that stabbing doesn't exert as much force on the blade as you'd think due to the fact that the surface is so small, that is basic physics and we all know that, the only hard thing can be pulling it out of not pulled out in time - vacuum force can be created by blood and air inside the skull that prevents it being pulled out. The softest part of the skull are the two sides right next to your ear; the unfortunate thing is that in Project Zomboid, currently at least, there is no way to simulate where we are exactly hitting the zombie, but usually, the ideal place for quick kill and minimum risk of breaking would be to the side. When knife breaks, it is going to break by it being jerked to the side whilst inside a bone. Knife can easily become dull with it hitting tougher material, so I wish in the game we could differentiate dull blade and broken blade (or broken handle) - take that as a suggestion, please!

Bloody and dirty rag? Yes, dirty rag is the one that has dirt on it. Bloody rag is a rag that has blood on it. Blood is not the same as dirt. Blood from your body will only carry what you had in your body and puts your wound at no risk. Dirt, however, brings a lot of foreign particles and thus viruses, bacteria, fungi and other microbes that could infect the wound. That dirt can be all the way from microscopic to actual visible dirt. The smaller the wound, the smaller the amount of dirt - the lesser the risk of wound getting infected. Antibiotics help too. Your blood has nothing to do with it. Your blood from own wound won't infect own wound, that is nonsensical to even attempt to conclude.

 

I've already brought scientific paper to prove one of my theses, and apparently that was ignored (by some), and I have no time for ignorance of scientific research. So, agree or disagree, feel free to argue, I've lost interest in this topic, this is my final input, but I might come back.

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Books eh? I like books. I'll wait for your pictures. I, too, have studied things. Many things. Sometimes studiously.

 

A) Any references to melons as analogs for human heads seem to be in terms of density, helmet safety awareness, and sound effects. Not buying it.

 

B) Sure you're not confusing irrigation of wounds with disinefection? i mean, wine is probably better than water from a questionable water source, due to potentially being sealed and containing alcohol, but what evidence do you have beyond advocacy of its use by ancient sources?

 

C) denatured alcohol

 

D) Seems alcohol can be effective on some viruses (hand sanitizers). Going to take the CDC's word over yours.

 

E) The knife pictured in PZ is a chef's knife, not a butcher's knife. I think you'll find the blade of a knife, such as the one depicted in PZ, is considerably larger and requires more force than you seem to be imaging. A large part of that force would be applied torsionally, to the handle of the knife when you strike, particualrly if it's done in the same way as the default attack animation suggests.

 

F) The dirt itself is the rag's fibers contaminating the wound, if you want to be pedantic. It tends to be recommended that dressings be changed when wet from blood or drainage. I'm assuming that's for a reason, even if you say otherwise.

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I suddenly feel threatened by the latest Enigma's message.

 

 

 

This thread has been fairly entertaining to read thus far. I'm afraid this time I won't be adding any more depth to the existing argument, but if there's any more scientific rants about whether it's effective to stab a kitchen knife through the skull, please go ahead! I swear I'm not a murderer... Why are there SWAT people outside my window?

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However, one thing to note about knives is that stabbing doesn't exert as much force on the blade as you'd think due to the fact that the surface is so small, that is basic physics and we all know that

 

I've already brought scientific paper to prove one of my theses, and apparently that was ignored (by some), and I have no time for ignorance of scientific research. So, agree or disagree, feel free to argue, I've lost interest in this topic, this is my final input, but I might come back.

 

The irony that you're still accusing people of ignorance, while misunderstanding basic tenets of physics is laudable but growing less fun by the post.

 

Actually, stabbing exerts more force on the blade. You see basic physics (irony) dictates that the same force exerted upon the same object in a smaller surface area means more force on the smaller surface area because it isn't spread out as much. (citation: http://www.scienceclarified.com/everyday/Real-Life-Physics-Vol-2/Pressure-How-it-works.html )

 

 

 

When a force is applied perpendicular to a surface area, it exerts pressure on that surface equal to the ratio of F to A, where F is the force and A the surface area. Hence, the formula for pressure ( p ) is p = F / A. One interesting consequence of this ratio is the fact that pressure can increase or decrease without any change in force—in other words, if the surface becomes smaller, the pressure becomes larger, and vice versa.

Emphasis mine.

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However, one thing to note about knives is that stabbing doesn't exert as much force on the blade as you'd think due to the fact that the surface is so small, that is basic physics and we all know that

 

I've already brought scientific paper to prove one of my theses, and apparently that was ignored (by some), and I have no time for ignorance of scientific research. So, agree or disagree, feel free to argue, I've lost interest in this topic, this is my final input, but I might come back.

 

The irony that you're still accusing people of ignorance, while misunderstanding basic tenets of physics is laudable but growing less fun by the post.

 

Actually, stabbing exerts more force on the blade. You see basic physics (irony) dictates that the same force exerted upon the same object in a smaller surface area means more force on the smaller surface area because it isn't spread out as much. (citation: http://www.scienceclarified.com/everyday/Real-Life-Physics-Vol-2/Pressure-How-it-works.html )

 

 

 

When a force is applied perpendicular to a surface area, it exerts pressure on that surface equal to the ratio of F to A, where F is the force and A the surface area. Hence, the formula for pressure ( p ) is p = F / A. One interesting consequence of this ratio is the fact that pressure can increase or decrease without any change in force—in other words, if the surface becomes smaller, the pressure becomes larger, and vice versa.

Emphasis mine.

 

 

He has never experienced begin stepped  on by a high heel if he thinks that a small surface= less pressure on the area

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I've read some people saying things about some people seeming impolite or upset. This may in part be because of the limitations of writing. Sombody may write something without meaning it to be rude, but because when people read it they have to imagine their tone of voice and mood, how somebody thinks somebody else was feeling when he wrote something is subjective. I have myself written things that were misinterpreted by others who thought I was trying to be rude or something like that, so it might be that people are trying to be more polite here than it may seem to others. One possibility to bear in mind often though is that somebody may be trolling.

 

I would like to comment on some things said here and will try to explain myself somewhat thorougly.

 

That papar about the wine was interesting. It said

"Comparisons of these results with those obtained in the preliminary experiments with alcohol showed that in general the disinfectant activity of the wines was about three times as great as could be accounted for by their alcohol content. This indicates that the acid of the wine must have played a consider-able part in the destruction of the bacteria. In practice the final outcome is probably determined by the joint alcohol and acid concentrations."

 

I have my doubts about honeydew and watermelon being very very good representations of the human skull when it comes to blades. Snaiper said that they were similar to coconuts. I can lay a knife against one of those two fruits and by simply pressing the knife sinks into it. A little girl with a completely blunt sword can cut a watermelon in half easily. Cutting a coconut is not as easy as laying a knife against it and pressing. Watermelons and coconuts are so different that I am not sure how they are both meant to be good representations of the human skull. Some more clarification is needed here. Are we talking about blades? I have never cut skulls myself so I do not know how good coconuts are, but I think they are much closer than watermelons. Snaiper also said that ballistic gelatine was like the bone of the skull. I am really not sure what to make of this. One possibility is trolling, another is that Snaiper may be trying to seem like he was right the whole time by being wrong the whole time, a bit like John Clements. Another possibility is that I am missing how watermelons and ballistic gelatine are as hard to pierce as the human skull.

 

If you are wearing a bandage and blood comes out of the wound then the blood coming out is probably not bacterially, but it is soaking into a bandage that has bacteria. The bacteria in the bloody bandage are going to utilise the nutrients in the blood and multiply. This is how the clean blood becomes infected blood. With the addition of bacteria from the bandage or from your skin. Now you've got a bandage with bacteria in its blood. Your blood is not infecting your wound by itself, rather it is being infected by the bacteria outside your body. Now having too many bacteria in the bandage in contact with you wound may be a bad thing, because there are going to be more reenforcements of bacteria going towards the wound and trying to dine on yet more blood, giving your macrophages a hard time defending your cells and their nutrient supply. The once clean blood on the bandage is now bacteria water, and the bandage is worthy of being called dirty. You change it for a not quite so dirty bandage, a dry one.

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Just about any kitchen metal tends to be stainless steel, which is a brittle metal that can handle slow cutting and slicing just fine, but cutting is absolutely terrible for the blade.

 

Also consider, how does duct tape and glue repair a knife? The handle.

 

Also, melons don't have skulls.

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