roof farming Dirt on non-natural tiles should lose fertility over time

[Jericoshost]

A very effective strategy in PZ is to get some dirt, and bring it to a secluded roof top, then survive indefinitely.

Or, you know... A floating fortress of anti-gravity. That, uh... Too.Yeah. 100% legit.Anyways:

 

A way to add some realism and balance this out would be for dirt to have a 'fertility' value that a plant draws from when harvested.

Example: you grab a dirt tile from suburbs with a fertitlity of 14. You plant potatoes which offer 30 food points (Hunger reduction = FP) Lets say we divide given hunger by 10 to determine required fertility to grow a stage, giving it 3.

Each time it grows a stage it reduces this value from the dirt's fertility.

There are 5 stages: (From wiki) Seedling doesn't count as a stage which reduces though.

 

1.Seedling (Don't minus for this stage)

2.Young

3.Fully Grown

4.Ready to Harvest

5.Seed-bearing

 

So the total reduction is 12 from 14, leaving 2.

Now, growing a plant in semi-infertile soil will cause it to give far less food, and be unable to produce seeds.

And when the infertility reaches 0, plants have a large chance to fail to grow.

 

How to fix this?

Use fertiliser and/or rotten food to increase fertility. rotten food (Or even un-rotten?) will give fertility based on it's FP. Fertilizer will give a huge bonus (Imagine like +20-30)

or:

Get new dirt, placing old dirt back on grass will allow it to slowly regain fertility over time.

 

Another potential way to go about this is to use a multi-fertility system, where dirt is considered to have (Lets say) 4 types of fertility. Each crop would take a bit from each type (More from some, less from others) and each crop replenishes different fertility's while taking from the others. Allowing a PC to use crop rotation like a real farmer. Though how you would do this in about 6 inches (With generous rounding) of dirt is out of my experience.

 

Now about dirt:

Dirt from different areas should give different starting fertility.

 

Dirt from the suburbs has all of the products from the suburbs in it to start, cleaning products, gardening pesticides and weed killers, car oil, and constantly being washed out into streets (The inherent nutrients can be washed out in rain and drained into sewers instead of into more dirt.) along with many more problems inherent to suburban gardening.

 

Dirt from the woods is better because it has more natural decomposition depositing nutrients, more animals contributing to the nutrients, and fewer pollutants in side.

 

Dirt from a farm would have the highest starting fertility, as this dirt would have all the required fertilization already added, have been tended and kept clean by professionals, etc.

 

And if you mixed dirt types in a bag you would get mixed dirt, better than suburbs but a little less than woods.

 

AND (This part is important) Dirt directly connected to the ground (Grass tiles more specifically) will constantly gain 1-3 fertility per day/week up to their natural max (For that area). This dirt gains more fertility when it rains than on dry days/weeks. Over farming can still deplete this dirt, but it would take a ton of farming in a very short time.

 

And with farming knowledge you would be able to tell a dirt tile's fertility, but even at lvl 1 you should be able to tell when dirt is out of fertility (If for no other reason than just to stop new players from ripping out their hair and blaming the game for why there crops stopped growing for 'no reason')

 

So what does everyone think? I did a quick search, and looked through common suggestions but I didn't see anything.

[lerk]

Good suggestion! Roofgardens are very overpowerd, this would be an greate buff.

Just 1+

[Geras]

Very well-thought suggestion.

 

+1

 

I also miss pots for plants. Would be neater then a bag of dirt spilled on concrete.

[lerk]

Very well-thought suggestion.

 

+1

 

I also miss pots for plants. Would be neater then a bag of dirt spilled on concrete.

Would be an new suggestion, maybe add pots whitch are moveable but have an bit reduced size, and an lower harvest.

[Jericoshost]

 

Very well-thought suggestion.

 

+1

 

I also miss pots for plants. Would be neater then a bag of dirt spilled on concrete.

Would be an new suggestion, maybe add pots whitch are moveable but have an bit reduced size, and an lower harvest.

 

to balance, they could be more water efficient, due to the water being contained in the pot.

[Trojan_Turps]

I was just about to start writing a very similar post. Know I don't have to

Thanks

Making farming harder will add alot to the late game. Roof top gardens need to be possible but should involve things like soil changes, lower harvests, crop rotation, fertilizer etc. Just anything to add some general maintenance to get people out and about.

[Jericoshost]

I was just about to start writing a very similar post. Know I don't have to

Thanks

Making farming harder will add alot to the late game. Roof top gardens need to be possible but should involve things like soil changes, lower harvests, crop rotation, fertilizer etc. Just anything to add some general maintenance to get people out and about.

Exactly! Especially out of their flying fortresses, I just... Can't. Like I could make one, but I would never.

I thought of this idea when I played don't starve, you have to fertilise farms for them to work, and then I remembered how my mom used to garden, then I remember how I researched how to grow food (I am a mild survivalist tbh) and then I wrote the idea out.

[King jjwpenguin]

+1

 

 

Very well-thought suggestion.
 
+1
 
I also miss pots for plants. Would be neater then a bag of dirt spilled on concrete.

Would be an new suggestion, maybe add pots whitch are moveable but have an bit reduced size, and an lower harvest.

 

+1

 

Plus 1 to it all!

[Gaffa Tape Warrior]

It would be good if we could get the words of someone who has tried this a lot himself, using pots for plants, who knows how long soil stays fertile and things like that. Please don't make it so that we need a degree in caprentry to make wooden plant pot holders before we can do rooftop farming! Please!

You should look up "chinese rooftop garden" on a search engine. There are some great pictures.

https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486w/public/2013/09/06/temple_roof.jpg?itok=IFMt1kMH

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PtmUsBEbIMw/maxresdefault.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/12/article-2389974-1B428DB9000005DC-273_964x633.jpg

[Jericoshost]

It would be good if we could get the words of someone who has tried this a lot himself, using pots for plants, who knows how long soil stays fertile and things like that. Please don't make it so that we need a degree in caprentry to make wooden plant pot holders before we can do rooftop farming! Please!

You should look up "chinese rooftop garden" on a search engine. There are some great pictures.

https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486w/public/2013/09/06/temple_roof.jpg?itok=IFMt1kMH

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PtmUsBEbIMw/maxresdefault.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/12/article-2389974-1B428DB9000005DC-273_964x633.jpg

Where did you get the idea of 'Needing' to make plant holders?

If you read the post, you can just swap dirt occasionally. Or re-fertilize.

As well we are not talking about a large self-sustaining roof top garden for decoration. Plants chosen for a Rooftopgarden (RTG) are not typically food bearing, which would drain out nutrients faster than a typical garden, and are typically picked to 'live together' and supply the appropriate cycle of nutrients using an exceedingly complicated system of automatic water cycling systems and fertilizers. As well, they use thicker dirt and THOSE RTG do actually use wood containers, unlike our current farms.

[King jjwpenguin]

It would be good if we could get the words of someone who has tried this a lot himself, using pots for plants, who knows how long soil stays fertile and things like that. Please don't make it so that we need a degree in caprentry to make wooden plant pot holders before we can do rooftop farming! Please!

You should look up "chinese rooftop garden" on a search engine. There are some great pictures.

https://www.scmp.com/sites/default/files/styles/486w/public/2013/09/06/temple_roof.jpg?itok=IFMt1kMH

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/PtmUsBEbIMw/maxresdefault.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/08/12/article-2389974-1B428DB9000005DC-273_964x633.jpg

i figured you would just need to use pots or they lose fertility over a long while of time. also possibly using other things than pots like shoes, mugs, pots, and stuff like that could work too. and if you say stuff wont grow in these things then take it up with the strawberry plant in my shoes. i leave them out for a few days. (more like a few months but whatever.) 

[Asrayl]

Personally I'd move that farming can only be done on the first floor. But that would start a riot. 

 

How about requiring specialized tools for farming above the first floor? Say things like flower pots, and potting soil? Make them only viable for X number of growths before needing to find new potting soil, which would be a specialty item from lawn and garden stores.

 

I know, realistically, that you can use damn near anything as a vessel for a potted plant. The plants don't really care. But for the sake of game play I think there might be some merit to this.

[Nightmaster]

The idea is great but part of it is impossible as far as I know with the current engine.

 

The main problem is how the system would keep track of fertility of different dirt tiles without it becaming very slow. I mean, I am not talking about the dirt tiles you created on a roof, I am talking about the other terrain around the game world. Just look at it as in real life.

 

In real life farmers must do a thing called crop rotation from time to time, in which they leave an area "rest" for a couple of months/years by not planting anything in it. That way they allow the soil to regain their fertility. In the meanwhile the farmer is planting the crops in another area and he do it sistematicaly to keep harvesting all year long (at least here in brazil in which winter dont have snow falling).

 

The problem with a "crop rotation" mechanic in the game is the problem of given fertility value and keeping track of all terrain tiles in the game world, not only the ones you created in the roofs.

[King jjwpenguin]

The idea is great but part of it is impossible as far as I know with the current engine.

 

The main problem is how the system would keep track of fertility of different dirt tiles without it becaming very slow. I mean, I am not talking about the dirt tiles you created on a roof, I am talking about the other terrain around the game world. Just look at it as in real life.

 

In real life farmers must do a thing called crop rotation from time to time, in which they leave an area "rest" for a couple of months/years by not planting anything in it. That way they allow the soil to regain their fertility. In the meanwhile the farmer is planting the crops in another area and he do it sistematicaly to keep harvesting all year long (at least here in brazil in which winter dont have snow falling).

 

The problem with a "crop rotation" mechanic in the game is the problem of given fertility value and keeping track of all terrain tiles in the game world, not only the ones you created in the roofs.

i see your point. possible have a single code and only active the rotation code when you till the dirt for farming. that way the code is only active in that spot.

[Jericoshost]

The idea is great but part of it is impossible as far as I know with the current engine.

 

The main problem is how the system would keep track of fertility of different dirt tiles without it becaming very slow. I mean, I am not talking about the dirt tiles you created on a roof, I am talking about the other terrain around the game world. Just look at it as in real life.

 

In real life farmers must do a thing called crop rotation from time to time, in which they leave an area "rest" for a couple of months/years by not planting anything in it. That way they allow the soil to regain their fertility. In the meanwhile the farmer is planting the crops in another area and he do it sistematicaly to keep harvesting all year long (at least here in brazil in which winter dont have snow falling).

 

The problem with a "crop rotation" mechanic in the game is the problem of given fertility value and keeping track of all terrain tiles in the game world, not only the ones you created in the roofs.

The only tiles you would need to keep track of are tilled tiles and dug up tiles. Not every tile.

[King jjwpenguin]

 

The idea is great but part of it is impossible as far as I know with the current engine.

 

The main problem is how the system would keep track of fertility of different dirt tiles without it becaming very slow. I mean, I am not talking about the dirt tiles you created on a roof, I am talking about the other terrain around the game world. Just look at it as in real life.

 

In real life farmers must do a thing called crop rotation from time to time, in which they leave an area "rest" for a couple of months/years by not planting anything in it. That way they allow the soil to regain their fertility. In the meanwhile the farmer is planting the crops in another area and he do it sistematicaly to keep harvesting all year long (at least here in brazil in which winter dont have snow falling).

 

The problem with a "crop rotation" mechanic in the game is the problem of given fertility value and keeping track of all terrain tiles in the game world, not only the ones you created in the roofs.

The only tiles you would need to keep track of are tilled tiles and dug up tiles. Not every tile.

 

exactly what i said but in a more simple way. also not just dug ones but ones that where placed as well.

[Nightmaster]

i see your point. possible have a single code and only active the rotation code when you till the dirt for farming. that way the code is only active in that spot.

 

That could be a solution indeed but you have the problem of discarting/remove the dirt tiles you created and that is something the game lack so far.

 

Also theres the problem of different type of soils and their innerent fertility. Its true you can plant flowers and herbs anywhere, but that dont mean the soil will hold the plant for long. That varies with each region/type of soil.

 

That's the reason farm locations are so difficult to find and why farmers do "crop rotation" to keep using a given area for decades or centuries.

 

Summing it up, it means that the devs would have to apply a fertility rate to every single tile of natural soil in the game and keep track of it and not when someone have tiled then, but because the environment would affect then as well... remember the erosion system? That would affect the fertility of soil tiles as well dont you think?

 

As I said the idea is great but implementing it would be a nightmare

[Jericoshost]

 

i see your point. possible have a single code and only active the rotation code when you till the dirt for farming. that way the code is only active in that spot.

 

That could be a solution indeed but you have the problem of discarting/remove the dirt tiles you created and that is something the game lack so far.

 

Also theres the problem of different type of soils and their innerent fertility. Its true you can plant flowers and herbs anywhere, but that dont mean the soil will hold the plant for long. That varies with each region/type of soil.

 

That's the reason farm locations are so difficult to find and why farmers do "crop rotation" to keep using a given area for decades or centuries.

 

Summing it up, it means that the devs would have to apply a fertility rate to every single tile of natural soil in the game and keep track of it and not when someone have tiled then, but because the environment would affect then as well... remember the erosion system? That would affect the fertility of soil tiles as well dont you think?

 

As I said the idea is great but implementing it would be a nightmare

 

Well implementing it 'that' way would be a nightmare yes.

Fertility would be determined by area, in the same way foragable areas are determined by non-foragable areas.

When you use a shovel to grab depleted dirt and put it on farmland, it will over-time gain the fertility of farmland.

Not 100% realistic, but then neither is farming full grown tomato or potato plants in what looks to be 3 rows of maybe 6 inches of dirt.

 

To sum up: You don't have to keep track of each individual tile, large areas would be kept track of along with the small number of tiles players/npc's could/would grab (Farming is alot of work, so even if someone grabbed a lot of them they wouldn't be able to keep up with it.) in the same way area's you can forage are kept track of without assigning each tile with a foragable code.

[Nightmaster]

Foraging is a simple RNG. Works like excel function "IF"

 

IF (tile 652x135 is "forageble") RNGxSkill level = Results... simple as that.

 

Its a dinamic mechanic that is activated on command and not a static one that will be working even if the player decides do sleep for a week before interacting again with the tiles.

 

Farming is a mechanic that keeps working based on "time". Player interaction/skill can influence it but aside from that it's a completly automated thing.

[Jericoshost]

Foraging is a simple RNG. Works like excel function "IF"

 

IF (tile 652x135 is "forageble") RNGxSkill level = Results... simple as that.

 

Its a dinamic mechanic that is activated on command and not a static one that will be working even if the player decides do sleep for a week before interacting again with the tiles.

 

Farming is a mechanic that keeps working based on "time". Player interaction/skill can influence it but aside from that it's a completly automated thing.

I wan't talking about foraging the action: I was talking of the areas that are foragable vs non-foragable. It is determined by area, just like fertility. It too would be an automated thing.

[Nightmaster]

Correcting my previous posts.

 

Field Rotation is the one in which you leave a field "rest" for a few months/years before using it again.

 

Crop Rotation is a similar practice that instead of leaving a field to rest, the farmer plants other types of crops that would change the fertility of the land by regenerating its hidrogen and other nutrients level.

 

Links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_manure

 

Foraging is a simple RNG. Works like excel function "IF"

 

IF (tile 652x135 is "forageble") RNGxSkill level = Results... simple as that.

 

Its a dinamic mechanic that is activated on command and not a static one that will be working even if the player decides do sleep for a week before interacting again with the tiles.

 

Farming is a mechanic that keeps working based on "time". Player interaction/skill can influence it but aside from that it's a completly automated thing.

I wan't talking about foraging the action: I was talking of the areas that are foragable vs non-foragable. It is determined by area, just like fertility. It too would be an automated thing.

 

Even so its based on stats that would change with time, affected by the erosion mechanic and players/NPCs actions.

[Jericoshost]

Correcting my previous posts.

 

Field Rotation is the one in which you leave a field "rest" for a few months/years before using it again.

 

Crop Rotation is a similar practice that instead of leaving a field to rest, the farmer plants other types of crops that would change the fertility of the land by regenerating its hidrogen and other nutrients level.

 

Links

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crop_rotation

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_manure

 

Foraging is a simple RNG. Works like excel function "IF"

 

IF (tile 652x135 is "forageble") RNGxSkill level = Results... simple as that.

 

Its a dinamic mechanic that is activated on command and not a static one that will be working even if the player decides do sleep for a week before interacting again with the tiles.

 

Farming is a mechanic that keeps working based on "time". Player interaction/skill can influence it but aside from that it's a completly automated thing.

I wan't talking about foraging the action: I was talking of the areas that are foragable vs non-foragable. It is determined by area, just like fertility. It too would be an automated thing.

 

Even so its based on stats that would change with time, affected by the erosion mechanic and players/NPCs actions.

It doesn't HAVE to be effected by erosion. Yes, it would make it more realistic, but it would also be far to crazy to code (For now).

Anything more?

[Nightmaster]

Well, the devs are trying to make the game as much realistic as they can, so if they go and add fertility issues to nerf roof farming they would also need to add code to fertility outside of roof farming as well and that is a whole can of worms that cant be avoided.

 

Its like Pandora's Box... once opened it cannot be closed anymore.

 

But as I said the whole idea is great and would add to the realism that is the aim of the game.

[King jjwpenguin]

Well, the devs are trying to make the game as much realistic as they can, so if they go and add fertility issues to nerf roof farming they would also need to add code to fertility outside of roof farming as well and that is a whole can of worms that cant be avoided.

 

Its like Pandora's Box... once opened it cannot be closed anymore.

 

But as I said the whole idea is great and would add to the realism that is the aim of the game.

very much agreed.

[Jericoshost]

Well, the devs are trying to make the game as much realistic as they can, so if they go and add fertility issues to nerf roof farming they would also need to add code to fertility outside of roof farming as well and that is a whole can of worms that cant be avoided.

 

Its like Pandora's Box... once opened it cannot be closed anymore.

 

But as I said the whole idea is great and would add to the realism that is the aim of the game.

And again, only tilled tiles would have to be kept track of (And dug up tiles). The difference between roof and ground is the ground will naturally replenish over time.

You would only have to track the z level (Height) of the tilled/dug up tile.

If Z = 0, natural replenish = on, If z= 1+, natural replenish = off.

 And Z level tracking is already in for zombies which FAR outnumber any amount of farming a player will ever be able to do.