Jump to content
CalmUnity

Immersion involving items...

Recommended Posts

 

 

 

Remoulade is seemingly common in Kentucky or Kentucky recipes, so.No, that one's not the problem here.

Never heard of the stuff. I'll ask some of my friends tonight if they've heard of it.

 

Lots of results for it, backing up Rathlord's previous claims about it being commonly used with fish:

http://www.jeffruby.com/louisville/menu

I must be bored. :-|

 

 

It's vastly overrepresented in the game to the detriment of things that are actually far more common (like Ketchup, for instance) in your average Kentucky household.

 

 

If this were the case, you'd have to remove every single item in the game that was more rare than another item not in the game in real life. That's not how it works. People ignorant of fine cuisine may not have heard of remoulade; that doesn't mean it's not around. I wager the vast majority of Americans are quite ignorant of most of the ingredients and flavors that go into their favorite meals if they're not the ones making it. Like I said before, I've been a chef in a restaurant in South Carolina that served high quality country/American food. We had fried green tomatoes with remoulade and never once had a customer not know what it is. So there you go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

If this were the case, you'd have to remove every single item in the game that was more rare than another item not in the game in real life. That's not how it works. People ignorant of fine cuisine may not have heard of remoulade; that doesn't mean it's not around. I wager the vast majority of Americans are quite ignorant of most of the ingredients and flavors that go into their favorite meals if they're not the ones making it. Like I said before, I've been a chef in a restaurant in South Carolina that served high quality country/American food. We had fried green tomatoes with remoulade and never once had a customer not know what it is. So there you go.

 

 

But......this is the exact argument were making. Your finding it way too common in households, when its more of a restaurant thing if at all here. Its simply not a household item for most of us here is what were getting at (I'm actually gonna check tonight to see if my local grocery store even carries remoulade, not expecting to find it though). 

 

Tartar sauce I can understand, its much more common and is somewhat similar to remoulade.  I just don't think you'd expect to find it as a common item in rural areas, especially when tartar sauce is more common. Also, grabbing from the PZ Wiki:

 

"Very much like the tartar sauce of some English-speaking cultures"

 

As a side note, I believe remoulade can't even currently be used in recipes right now, and mayonnaise is still bugged in where its added as an ingredient instead of a spice to burgers and such.

 

TL;DR edition: Remoulade would be fine if it was being found in restaurants, and not the average household where you would find the much more common tartar sauce.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But......this is the exact argument were making. Your finding it way too common in households, when its more of a restaurant thing if at all here. Its simply not a household item for most of us here is what were getting at (I'm actually gonna check tonight to see if my local grocery store even carries remoulade, not expecting to find it though).

 

Forgive my phrasing, but it's a bad argument. In almost no games ever in history has a game actually presented a realistic breakdown of items in real life. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If you did this and removed every item in PZ that was less likely to be found than something else in real life, that means no guns or sledgehammers or shovels or trowels or seeds. Instead, you now get to find more plates, wine glasses, socks, plastic baggies, and tupperware. It's an argument against fun and against good game design.

 

Every game has its little foibles. There's nothing wrong with having an item or two that is slightly less common in real life. It's part of what gives a game character. Is it a bit eccentric? Sure. But it doesn't break reasonable suspension of disbelief in any but the most anal, unimaginative minds.

 

Look in the salad dressing aisle. Also, keep in mind remoulade is based on mayo most of the time. Most people who eat remoulade make it up fresh. This means that while you might not have seen it in stores, it's only your ignorance of cuisine that means you've never seen it before. As mentioned before, it's not only a French staple- it's also hugely popular in Louisiana and has spread throughout the southern US. If you grew up in a family that made a lot of baked ziti, meat loaf, and other "American" food constantly, you may not have ever seen it. But that doesn't mean that more cultured people around you weren't making it up for their families to enjoy frequently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

But......this is the exact argument were making. Your finding it way too common in households, when its more of a restaurant thing if at all here. Its simply not a household item for most of us here is what were getting at (I'm actually gonna check tonight to see if my local grocery store even carries remoulade, not expecting to find it though).

 

Forgive my phrasing, but it's a bad argument. In almost no games ever in history has a game actually presented a realistic breakdown of items in real life. And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. If you did this and removed every item in PZ that was less likely to be found than something else in real life, that means no guns or sledgehammers or shovels or trowels or seeds. Instead, you now get to find more plates, wine glasses, socks, plastic baggies, and tupperware. It's an argument against fun and against good game design.

 

Every game has its little foibles. There's nothing wrong with having an item or two that is slightly less common in real life. It's part of what gives a game character. Is it a bit eccentric? Sure. But it doesn't break reasonable suspension of disbelief in any but the most anal, unimaginative minds.

 

Look in the salad dressing aisle. Also, keep in mind remoulade is based on mayo most of the time. Most people who eat remoulade make it up fresh. This means that while you might not have seen it in stores, it's only your ignorance of cuisine that means you've never seen it before. As mentioned before, it's not only a French staple- it's also hugely popular in Louisiana and has spread throughout the southern US. If you grew up in a family that made a lot of baked ziti, meat loaf, and other "American" food constantly, you may not have ever seen it. But that doesn't mean that more cultured people around you weren't making it up for their families to enjoy frequently.

 

 

Rathlord, I often generally agree with you, but basing any argument on an appeal to common practice is a logical fallacy. An introductory class in logic teaches you that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

 

Just because most games do something one way, does not mean that it should be done like that in all other games. If that were the case then we should probably have special infected, super weapons, armor, power-ups, health packs, and it of course should be 1st person perspective. It would just be another L4D or Dead Island based in Kentucky if the right thing to do is based on what others have already done.

 

What draws me to this game is that it is not like other zombie/survival games. That realism is an important aspect of this game to the developers and I assume the community around it.

 

The argument that I most commonly see in this thread is that remoulade is either not common in an average American household (like you said most people 'make it up fresh' so why do we have it in bottles of it in game? Do you or your friends/family put it in what looks like squirt bottles after you make it?) or that people have never heard of it. Most seem to think it was lemonade! This does not mean that these people are less-'cultured' because they are ignorant of an uncommon food condiment.

 

While I do not live in KY, I did check three grocery stores this week. None had remoulade. Two were local chain supermarkets and one was Whole Foods, which is a national chain. Whole Foods did have a recipe that called for remoulade though, but unfortunately I could not buy it there.

 

I would also like to argue that, being someone who grew up in a rural community, that things like shovels (spades in this game), trowels, guns (A Gallop Poll states that 40% of American households have a gun in them and that 30% of Americans personally own a gun) , and sledgehammers are not uncommon in the average rural household. If anything, this game needs to spawn more of those and not less. So, I personally don't buy your argument there at all. What spawns in the average shed/garage in this game is no where near accurately representing what you would find in the average home owner's shed/garage. I agree that more plates (since there are none), silverware, plastic 'baggies', socks, and tupperware (since there is none in game) should probably spawn more frequently. Those cabinets in game can handle up to 50 weight and they are almost always never more than 20% full. How many households have you been in with their cupboards 80% empty? Some sure, but not most. Every house should probably have a cooking pot, frying pan, and kitchen knife too.

 

If remoulade is a common item in more food 'cultured' homes then that's fine. It still does not make it a common household item that we find in plastic bottles. It's spawn rate should be dropped significantly. I'm not saying remove it, but it should not be as common as it is.

 

Maybe a higher end restaurant that is more 'cultured' would have remoulade on hand? But, looking at the map, I don't see any higher end, more 'cultured', restaurants. There are 2 generic restaurants (one with booths, cause that always high end and classy) that might have some, but I doubt Spiffo's, Pizza Whirled, Pile-O-Crepes, etc would have any.

 

Yeah, we can make a mod and change these things that we don't like, but that is not the point of this thread. The point is to discuss 'immersion involving items' for players that the community feels the devs should address in the vanilla version of the game.

 

My last point, calling people 'anal', 'ignorant', and referring to them as being less 'cultured' because they do not have your biased experience with food, is not what I consider being lovely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, this whole thing took a turn for the worse, didn't it?

 

If changing it to something else is too time consuming to be worthwhile, I get it.  But as others have said, the fact that it might appear in a high end restaraunt somewhere doesn't make it something so common that it fills shelves everywhere.  I also do not consider myself ignorant or anal, and the fact that I don't eat things that include remoulade doesn't make me 'less' cultured - just different.  Point blank, every time I see a bottle of it in game I'm reminded that the game is made by a diverse international group of people.  If you're okay with that, then I can be too; I only participated in this thread because it was a discussion about immersion, not because I particularly care if you set the game in a rural American area or not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rathlord, I often generally agree with you, but basing any argument on an appeal to common practice is a logical fallacy. An introductory class in logic teaches you that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

 

This would be viable if I didn't immediately explain why it's a "tradition" and the good reasons for that. Unfortunately, like many people, you haven't grasped that tenet of logical debate. It's not a fallacy if it's backed up by an argument on why it should be that way- which it was. My point of contention was not "it has always been that way, thus it must remain that way" it was "it has been that way in many cases, and here is why I think that's good for this case as well." It's only a fallacy if you're using it as the sole proof that your point is right. As is the case 99.99% of the times in online arguments, bringing up "logic" serves only to derail the discuss and is usually misapplied. If you disagree with something I say, explain your reasoning rather than just posting a Wikipedia link. Unfortunately, you never got around to discussing the actual gameplay impact, so I can't respond to this except to say that you wasted time attacking the form of my argument instead of the content of it.

 

 

Just because most games do something one way, does not mean that it should be done like that in all other games. If that were the case then we should probably have special infected, super weapons, armor, power-ups, health packs, and it of course should be 1st person perspective. It would just be another L4D or Dead Island based in Kentucky if the right thing to do is based on what others have already done.

 

Again, not what I said. I'm not arguing for PZ to be a clone of every other game (and a slippery slope fallacy). I'm saying some things in games are done for a reason. Almost all games that use the arrow pad use up to go forward. If you're going to make a game that uses left at forward, I  might say that was a bad idea as well and point to other games as an example. That's not the crux of my argument, the crux of my argument is that there's a reason many games do it in a certain way, and I agree with it.

 

 

The argument that I most commonly see in this thread is that remoulade is either not common in an average American household (like you said most people 'make it up fresh' so why do we have it in bottles of it in game? Do you or your friends/family put it in what looks like squirt bottles after you make it?) or that people have never heard of it. Most seem to think it was lemonade! This does not mean that these people are less-'cultured' because they are ignorant of an uncommon food condiment.

 

Yes, they do. In fact, in the restaurant I worked in we always made it up and put it in a squirt bottle. Fairly common at home, too, when I have one clean. If you really have a problem with it being in a squirt bottle, then maybe argue that it should be in tupperware instead. Otherwise, this is simply shifting the goal posts of an argument. The manner of storage has nothing to do with the viability of the item in game.

 

 

 

While I do not live in KY, I did check three grocery stores this week. None had remoulade. Two were local chain supermarkets and one was Whole Foods, which is a national chain. Whole Foods did have a recipe that called for remoulade though, but unfortunately I could not buy it there.

 

I would also like to argue that, being someone who grew up in a rural community, that things like shovels (spades in this game), trowels, guns (A Gallop Poll states that 40% of American households have a gun in them and that 30% of Americans personally own a gun) , and sledgehammers are not uncommon in the average rural household. If anything, this game needs to spawn more of those and not less. So, I personally don't buy your argument there at all. What spawns in the average shed/garage in this game is no where near accurately representing what you would find in the average home owner's shed/garage. I agree that more plates (since there are none), silverware, plastic 'baggies', socks, and tupperware (since there is none in game) should probably spawn more frequently. Those cabinets in game can handle up to 50 weight and they are almost always never more than 20% full. How many households have you been in with their cupboards 80% empty? Some sure, but not most. Every house should probably have a cooking pot, frying pan, and kitchen knife too.

 

40% of homes with a gun is still less than, say, plates, which you can assume is in 100% of homes. You're still missing the point, which is that having hyper-realistic item distribution is bad for gameplay, regardless of reality. This is not a life simulator, it's a game. Yes, TIS strives for realism in many cases; however, some sacrifices must be made for gameplay. This includes sometimes having rarer items in the game and not having more common items that are pointless. Arguing to have remoulade be removed is still rather backwards, as the work has already been done to add it to the game and I've already proven that it exists in stores (see link earlier in this thread) and in people's homes.

 

The same reasoning is true for why the cabinets aren't all full- again, gameplay must take precedence over realism in some cases. If the game had hyperrealistic item distribution it just plain wouldn't be fun, because you'd have everything you'd need to survive in the first house you looted.

 

 

My last point, calling people 'anal', 'ignorant', and referring to them as being less 'cultured' because they do not have your biased experience with food, is not what I consider being lovely.

 

You seem to have misread my post. I said "ignorant of" which means not having knowledge of a specific thing. That's not an insult. I never called anyone anal, either, my point was a generalization that the only people that will have their reasonable suspension of disbelief broken by slightly off-kilter item distribution are that type. As far as I know, no one in this thread said their reasonable suspension of disbelief was broken- it was just general arguing about it. And there's nothing wrong with not being a foodie. That's not an insult. Some people enjoy high end cuisine, others don't. There's nothing wrong with either of those things. My point still stands 100%. The intent is not to insult anyone.

 

 

If you have a problem with my post, please feel free to report it and the rest of the team will look it over. Otherwise, please don't derail the thread by lecturing a mod on the site rules. Thanks.

 


 

Anyways, if we're going to throw logic terms around, this entire discussion stems from several posts that are nothing but arguments from ignorance/incredulity. "I have never seen remoulade, therefor it does not exist/is not common." There are countless things that exist in many homes that may not exist in yours. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say. A good example that you mentioned- guns. Many people don't grow up with guns in their homes and have never fired them. It's even common for people to never have even been in a home where there were firearms. But that doesn't make them less of a reality. This is no different. And, to be blunt, from a statistical standpoint the teens/20-somethings that make up the majority of our members are not the most likely of people to have experience with fine dining. It's generally an interest that people pick up when they're older- again, generalizing, but over all true. I'm not entirely surprised that few people here have had remoulade- though many people probably wouldn't know what it was called even if they had it. I didn't know what it was even though I'd had it many times before until I was a cook.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Anyways, if we're going to throw logic terms around, this entire discussion stems from several posts that are nothing but arguments from ignorance/incredulity. "I have never seen remoulade, therefor it does not exist/is not common." There are countless things that exist in many homes that may not exist in yours. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say. A good example that you mentioned- guns. Many people don't grow up with guns in their homes and have never fired them. It's even common for people to never have even been in a home where there were firearms. But that doesn't make them less of a reality. This is no different. And, to be blunt, from a statistical standpoint the teens/20-somethings that make up the majority of our members are not the most likely of people to have experience with fine dining. It's generally an interest that people pick up when they're older- again, generalizing, but over all true. I'm not entirely surprised that few people here have had remoulade- though many people probably wouldn't know what it was called even if they had it. I didn't know what it was even though I'd had it many times before until I was a cook.

 

 

I tried to not take the previous post the wrong way, but since there is a lack of emotion in text I can easily see how it can be taken that way, that aside......

 

It seems like you may be slightly biased since you are a cook, and have dealt with it in your life. But, as someone who actually lives in KY, I can safely say that the grocery store in my area doesn't carry it, and honestly when I first heard of it I had to look it up in the wiki.

 

Guns are actually fairly common. While I don't personally own one, several of my family and their neighbors do. I can probably safely say that none of them have remoluade in their fridge.

 

But I can see this subject is starting to get touchy, and the point I was trying to make was that tartar sauce was the more common, and similar, dressing here in the states. I do believe that remoluade is probably used in some areas, but it would definitely be in restaurants in bigger cities such as Louisville. If I was finding remoluade in Spiffo's or other local restaurants in-game I don't think it would bother me as much, but it being in a lot of the households is the bigger problem.

 

I understand its an international team, and if they have some love for this dressing than its more than fine for it to stay in as a very common item. For someone actually from the area the game says it takes place in, it can be slightly confusing for us.

 

There are definitely some local items that could be added to the game that may confuse people just as easily as remoluade does. It would be nice to see Dry-Land Fish as a forageable item in the future :D

 

Edit: As a side note, I find it amusing that were still debating an item that doesn't even function in-game as a dressing yet, or has any use in any food recipes in-game.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There wouldn't be anything wrong with tartar sauce being added to the game. Not arguing that in the slightest. But it wouldn't make sense to remove an item that I've proved exists from the game just because some people haven't experienced it in their lives. Could it be tweaked a bit? Sure, maybe. It's not that common in the first place, but it could still be messed with. But it's not (or shouldn't be) an "immersion breaking item" just because you haven't experienced it, just like guns shouldn't be an immersion breaking item just because you haven't experienced them.

 

Like I said before, there's nothing wrong with a game having a few quirks and foibles, anyways. If any little alteration from reality is really going to ruin the game for people, then they should maybe stick to nonfiction. And while feedback on this stuff is certainly welcome by the devs (and myself), I do have a problem with people judging things simply based on their own experience- just like the spades/shovels discussion. I just wish people would open their minds a bit beyond their own experiences.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's just break this down quickly before someone gets hurt . . .

 

Spade vs Shovel == Not a result of an internationally diverse team. It's a genuine boner as to the proper classification of the style of implement shown in the sprite.

Remoulade == Potentially rarer in real life than represented in the game, that may not necessarily be spawning in appropriate locations. Not a result of an internationally diverse team. It's an easily correctable mistake that doesn't need to be addressed with the nuclear option. Other condiments being rarer in the game just heighten the fact that it spawns too much (or they spawn too little).

*Amount of guns == A game design choice to limit the capabilities of the player to own everything. Not a result of an internationally diverse team.

*Plates/Useless Items == A game design / programming choice to limit the amount of clutter players have to sort through and to stave off scary things such high resource usage.

*Tools == A game design choice to limit the capabilities of the player to own everything

Hot Cuppa == Easter Egg

 

That it's necessary to explicitly state this is disappointing. We don't need to "overhaul, revamp, and remove" things just because there's an issue somewhere, yet that is the direction many of these conversations seem to take. Everything is "broken" or "breaking" instead of needing to be tweaked a bit, while still functioning as intended. While I understand finding things "wrong" with the game can be greatly frustrating for players, it's also pretty brutal to have constructive criticisms take this form.

 

*Change loot to abundant in Sandbox to experience "realistic" loot respawns.

Edited by EnigmaGrey
Don't write while tired, kids.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Americans and their patriotism...

 

It doesn't matter what names items were given, we still know what they are and what they are for.

 

Also about the spawn rarity. Remember guys! We are not the only people in the city, the devs are probably preparing everything for NPCs, and thats why you cannot find an axe in every shed, or tons of food. People who lived in those houses would have taken all that stuff with them. That explains why occasionally a zed can drop an axe :D

 

However, i do agree with the jar thing. Jars are so rare in the game, they should increase the availabily by a bit. Even in my house i have tons of jars left over from Jam, Honey etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jars are not a necessity in the game, you can still do without them by fishing, trapping, scavenging and organizing your food. But it still would be nice to have more of them. 

 

The thing with lids though do complicate things, maybe if you have a certain skill you can repair them? Using glue/duck-tape/rubber band?

 

I would love to use them, but as of right now they are just to rare to go into the trouble of finding them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally on the tangent of jars.... You can pick them up in flats, and commonly do so in my case. Lids of course follow this same understanding, moreso due to the fact that they are actually a one use deal realistically. My only complaint is the availability of jars and lids as this is something not many people (urban folk) understand and would not actually account for in the beginning of the end times. On top of this all materials for preserving food are a bitch to find and keep in good stock. This really makes no sense to me considering how easy it really is to get said supplies. Just a thought, as this doesn't mean we'd get to such a point as a community or use them much anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Anyways, if we're going to throw logic terms around, this entire discussion stems from several posts that are nothing but arguments from ignorance/incredulity. "I have never seen remoulade, therefor it does not exist/is not common." There are countless things that exist in many homes that may not exist in yours. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as they say. A good example that you mentioned- guns. Many people don't grow up with guns in their homes and have never fired them. It's even common for people to never have even been in a home where there were firearms. But that doesn't make them less of a reality. This is no different. And, to be blunt, from a statistical standpoint the teens/20-somethings that make up the majority of our members are not the most likely of people to have experience with fine dining. It's generally an interest that people pick up when they're older- again, generalizing, but over all true. I'm not entirely surprised that few people here have had remoulade- though many people probably wouldn't know what it was called even if they had it. I didn't know what it was even though I'd had it many times before until I was a cook.

 

 

This is what the discussion boils down to.  Yes; it is absolutely true that the fact that I have never seen remoulade does not mean it is uncommon.  It's not proof - but it is evidence, and taken in conjunction with other evidence (such as the inability to find it in any grocery store in one's town, or never having seen it in any home one has ever been in) it is possible to formulate a reasonable theory:  Remoulade is far less common in reality than it is in the game.  By the same token, the fact that you as a chef are now very familiar with it does not mean it is as common as we find it here.  So, yes, it's a theory - not proof.  

 

Knowing that...now what, if anything?  Perhaps nothing.  Perhaps, as you say, it is such a small thing that it isn't worth addressing at all.  Or perhaps the theory itself can be disproven, and in reality remoulade can be found in many household cabinets in the real Knox County.  Or perhaps the idea of local authenticity just needs to take a back seat here.  Either way it's up to you folks.  You've heard the feedback, and you will do with it what you will.  You have a pretty good track record for making good decisions so I'm sure whatever you come up with here will be fine.

 

On a side point, though...the whole 'fine dining' thing is still bothering me ;)  I eat very well, and I have eaten at many very exclusive restaraunts, and I'n not in my 20's...and I *still* haven't ever heard of remoulade.  I suspect it's as you say - it's probably been in things I've eaten and I just never knew it - and I suppose that would be the technical definition of 'ignorance' if it's true.  However, characterizing this as a mistake the young would make or those who probably haven't experienced 'fine dining' is definitely a zinger for people like myself, who are not young and do eat well :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i used a jar to put some potatoes, but it seems to have disapeared after i opened it. do they have a use limit? (the jar and the lid)

No, the jar itself should never vanish. The lids themselves, as in reality, are only one-use.

ahhh, ok. im glad theres plenty of food so puting food on jar is just a luxury

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On a side point, though...the whole 'fine dining' thing is still bothering me ;)  I eat very well, and I have eaten at many very exclusive restaraunts, and I'n not in my 20's...and I *still* haven't ever heard of remoulade.  I suspect it's as you say - it's probably been in things I've eaten and I just never knew it - and I suppose that would be the technical definition of 'ignorance' if it's true.  However, characterizing this as a mistake the young would make or those who probably haven't experienced 'fine dining' is definitely a zinger for people like myself, who are not young and do eat well :)

 

I apologize if I caused offense, that's not my intent. I would like to clarify what I said again- "ignorant of" is not the same as "ignorant." One is an insult, and one is just not having knowledge of something. I'm relatively ignorant of middle eastern cuisine- that's not an insult, it's just true. Similarly, it seems you may be ignorant of French and Cajun cuisine (where remoulade is commonly found). Again, nothing wrong with that and it's not particularly a strong suit for me, either. If you're ever going my way, let me know and I'll fry you some green tomatoes and top it with home made remoulade. It's a great experience.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...