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Kingxex

Zombies speed/distribution need to be completely revamped.

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I've lurked here and on the old forums pretty much since PZ began. Never felt the need to make an account until now, but I need to get this off my chest.

 

Zombies in PZ used to terrify me. The days of the tutorial, baldspot and Kate, the looter... The first time I left my oven on and the house caught fire, waking up to a hundred zombies at my door. I freaking sh*t myself. I barricaded myself inside my house and inside my room. They eventually got in. I've never been so excited to die before. I'd never experienced anything like it. I was hooked.

 

The next time I thought I'd steal the looter's shotgun, better weapon right? Oh hell no, every shot attracted more zombies until my measly rounds were all gone. I was eaten again. It was amazing. I was so scared to just go outside.

 

But the more you play the game, and the more in tune you become with the meta, the weaker zombies become. They're not even a threat anymore, they're a joke. It wasn't long before people were one-shotting zombies with the fireaxe and surviving for over a year. Just Youtube anyone that plays PZ, you can rally a thousand zombies with a shotgun and just run rings around them. Just one example:

 

 

I propose a revamp.

 

My first small change - make the zombies lunging speed slightly faster than your character is able to walk backwards, to prevent the ability to just kite and shoot. So when they're within 5 metres of you, they suddenly get faster. Note - I am aware they already do this, but their lunging speed is still slower than you're able to back-pedal, so it's not scary at all.

 

But my biggest change would be to implement a more Walking Dead style of zombie: the more zombies that are grouped up; the faster they become (but only when they see you). Just 1-2 zombies? Shouldn't be a huge problem to deal with. 5-10? Starting to speed up, a fast shuffle. 25+? They're almost breaking into a run. But you should still be able to out-sprint them.

 

Second big change would be the distribution. Again taking Walking Dead as inspiration, zombies need to be fewer, but the horde needs to be massive. I am aware you can change the settings for amount of zombies, but it's either tediously empty, or unable to breathe. It would be nice to have both, the feeling of relief and desertation, with the constant worry of a huge horde just suddenly appearing. Coupled with the new speed mechanics I proposed - this would always be a threat. I want to feel like I have to run or hide from huge groups of zombies. Not moonwalk away without a care in the world.

 

As far as I'm concerned, this is the only way to bring tension back into the game. The most stress I ever have is finding a nice home-base. That's about it. I want a horde to scare me again, I want to hide in my base peeking out the sheet-covered windows, worried that they'll see me. Not loading up my shotgun to tediously lure them away.

 

I love PZ, it has the potential to be the ultimate zombie survival simulation ever made. But right now, it's just pac man wielding a shotgun, with crippled ghosts.

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I don't want to be that guy....but the combat system ( not that what you want I know) WILL be revamped. Grabbing won't be this one animation anymore. It will be a lot harder. Of course I cant speak for the developers but I do believe zombies dramatically change, with the new animation and combat system. Also I would have agreed to your opinion before Build 32...After it Zombies have changed. They are attacking your base now. They are, not a big for sure, a threat now. :)

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I'm not talking about grabbing or the combat system, because they never get within a distance to grab you anyway. I'm talking about their speed when it comes to lunging at you to even get a chance to grab. At the moment you can just walk backwards at a speed faster than a zombie coming towards you, which is what makes the game boring. I understand the idea of changing grabbing, because at the moment you can almost sprint straight through a big group, which is also dumb. But their speed is the main issue here. They're just too slow. They should be shambling along until they see you, at which point their speed is greatly increased.

 

Also, I'm against the idea of zombies "coming to attack your base" because they're zombies. I want them to be stupid, oblivious. But I also want them to be like homing missiles when they spot you. My idea is that a massive horde would just appear sometimes, just shambling in a random direction. If you're quick enough you can hide, let them go pass. If you're out in the open they will spot you and charge, at a speed much higher than we have at the moment. The more zombies together in a group, the faster that charge will be (upto a sort of jogging pace, again I still want to out-sprint them, which is why the current "running" zombies is not fun).

 

Their ability to grab is redundant when they never get near me.

 

The other issue as I stated is the distribution of zombies across the map. They're either everywhere (if you select normal or high amounts of zombies) or nowhere. I want the map to be almost deserted, more in homes and buildings and cities where you'd expect to find them and less just standing around in gardens or the middle of the road. It should be almost empty apart from migrating hordes and maybe some "trap" buildings that are completely full of zombies. The current game is just - kill zombies in the road, loot house, set up base, kill a few zombies around base, repeat. The migrating horde dynamic just doesn't exist, and when it does (when you shoot a gun) you can just walk away to lure them somewhere else. Yawn.

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I have to say that I somewhat agree with the speed issue. I made a post about it a while ago, but it seems that many people don't want the speed changed at all.

 

I personally think that there just needs to be slightly more variation and zombie speeds shouldn't be off/on/sprint, where "on" is a constant speed of a zombie, even if it's just walking around. I think that the "sprint" should be much longer and also slightly faster and also gradual. When a zombie gets closer to you it should slowly start gaining speed imo, I think it would increase the feel that it is gaining on its food and would feel more fluent altogether. Why would a zombie slow down after it lunges or gains on you? Aren't they supposed to be basically tireless?

 

And here comes the topic of player speed that was discussed on another topic. It would seem that we're going to get gradual speed (a Mondoid showed gradual speeding up animations) for the player, which I think would be great for balancing this out. I personally also dislike the fact that you can simply walk away from a horde and there's no way that they'll be able to follow you. I think in Max Brooks lore it's stated that what makes zombies so dangerous is not the fact that they're fast, but very durable. They'll walk or shamble after you for miles on end, and when you're tired, that's when they get you. But with these current speeds it simply isn't possible. You'll just walk away and they'll be left in the horizon within a few blocks. Even hordes.

 

And last in my points is just that. Big hordes stop after they lose sight of you. Zombies altogether stop when they find the spot that they last saw you in. That means there would be no chance of wandering hordes in the game as it's presented to the player. Sure we can make scripted events that send mega hordes coming past your base and I'm for that, but it would seem silly when what you're seeing when they come after you is the opposite. They stop and then they start wandering on the spot. They should continue to the direction they were heading without stopping as long as they lose interest or find something more interesting. This would go with the gradual speed. Once they've lost sight of you and gone past the point where they last saw/heard you/anything they'd start to gradually lose interest and stop. unless in hordes. I mean, how do zombies know how to stop at a certain place where they heard a gunshot. It's not like they should have pin point hearing. Also that would in my opinion show or at least hint of intellect which should be a no no. This might be an issue after the zombies have gone out of the loaded range, but still it bothers me that they just drop back and say "Hmm... It was probably nothing." Well at least they don't get back to their post. :P

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I don't think the player is the issue. Granted, gradual speed increase is certainly more realistic, but it doesn't offset being able to out-walk a zombie horde. The speed increase I suggested is a great way to add tension that is sorely lacking. Of course people don't want the speed of zombies changing, because people are more interested in smashing zombie brains than realism. In a real zombie apocolypse (the irony) you wouldn't want to engage zombies unless they were singled out and the current game, even with the latest update still shows poor implementation of true zombie mechanics.

 

Hordes should be THE definative, singular threat a player encounters. Take a look at any film, series or otherwise. A huge amount of zombies = run or hide. Or die fighting. I don't think gradual sprinting is going to address how lacklustre the threat of a horde feels right now. Hordes should also migrate and I'm glad you agree that they should not just stop dead once they lose interest, they should keep going in the direction they were travelling for a much longer time before they lose interest or find something else. Hopefully when NPCs are finally back in this will help, but it's still tedious to move 50 metres away and you're safe.

 

Just as a side note, I don't like the idea of zombies being as fast or faster than you, which is why I don't like the running zombie option. They should be faster than your ability to walk/strafe/back pedal, but slower than your sprint. If they can run/sprint, you'll just be running and sprinting everywhere, which is what makes running zombies almost impossible to survive longer than a few days.

 

But that brings me to another point actually, I wish they'd never implemented zombies that stand still, totally idle, doing nothing. It probably goes against zombie lore but I feel in this game, there was more tension when zombies were constantly moving. The tension is what makes or breaks this game and it just doesn't exist at the moment. They should stop focusing on nerfing the sh*t out of the player's combat skills and concentrate on what makes zombies so dangerous: sheer numbers!

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Disagree. I like that zombies are slow currently and the main method of death is inattention or, with build 32, becoming surrounded.

While I agree that lunging would be neat, it shouldn't be to the point that zombies lose their Brooks/Romero nature, such as by [by approaching] running [speed] as fast or faster than the player just because they're in a group or near.

Edited by EnigmaGrey
Misunderstandings

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Hm I am very confused. This post reads like it was created before build 32.

 

I played the entire weekend with friends on build 32 and before that I played every night solo on build 32 for a week.

 

First, while I totally agree with OP pre-32: I was able to survive for months and only die to my own stupidity.

 

But now you have constantly migrating zombies. The meta events really screw you up because HUNDREDS of zombies will migrate to your current position...and if you are at your safe house then say goodbye to it. Because zombies will just attack any structure in their path (which I like).

 

I don't feel safe in this game anymore....EVER!

 

Pre build 32 I would clear an area around my safe house and be sure to never be bothered again.

 

Now, I feel like there is a now horde on its way to my base just when I'm done clearing the last one.

 

I barely get to build walls and farm. I actually lowered the default zombie settings because I have to admit: Normal is now to hard for me. I might have to start experimenting with noise devices to divert zombies from my safe house.

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Disagree. I like that zombies are slow currently and the main method of death is inattention or, with build 32, becoming surrounded.

While I agree that lunging would be neat, it shouldn't be to the point that zombies lose their Brooks/Romero nature, such as by running as fast or faster than the player just because they're in a group or near.

 

[**Minor Walking Dead Spoilers**]

 

I'm not saying that they break any form of zombie convention. I'm saying they adhere more to it. In The Walking Dead, 1-2 zombies is no problem. Even more than that when in a group. But look what happens when a big group suddenly comes through, they all of a sudden move faster. In season 1 when they're in the building, as soon as a huge group breaks through, they move a hell of a lot faster. Same in the first episode, when he turns the corner on the horse into a horde, they swarm him in seconds. This is how it should be in the game. Imagine wandering around looking for food that's become scarce, you decide to loot the supermarket and bam, hundreds of zombies packed in there. They come flooding out at a decent speed, that would be some scary sh*t. You'd have to think about whether to try and find a different entrance another day or maybe risking shutting the door somehow.

 

At the moment I just think "woops, sprint 1 second out of harms way then walk for 20 metres. Now the zombies are all staring at the floor again and I'm safe." If you don't find that boring and against zombie lore then you're contradicting yourself.

 

It just seems that the alpha is becoming more focused on how strong an individual zombie has to be and how gimped the player is to determine difficulty. I have played the new alpha 32 and I agree it's challenging, but for all the wrong reasons. A horde shouldn't converge on your location, forcing you to move camp. They should migrate across your path, but not destory everything in the process without even seeing you. It doesn't even make sense from a Brooks/Romero standpoint. Not that it even matters because you can still sprint down the road, fire off a few shotgun shells to lure them away then come back.

 

The fact you can still do this depresses me:

 

 

You should die in this game because of accidentally attracting a (new, faster) horde, a risky plan of action that went badly or same sort of sneak attack you didn't see. Not because zombies are now less easier to kill with melee weapons. I feel the developers have made the wrong choices to make the game more challenging. They seem dead-eyed on how weak they can make the player character, to the point that a simple engagement is a chore. This pushing away and curb-stomping several times is tedious, from a lore point of view and a gameplay one. I could make the game more challenging by making weapons break after one hit. Doesn't address how boring and un-scary the game has become.

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I'm not saying that they break any form of zombie convention.

No, you're saying they should break their zombie conventions and embrace your interpretation of the Walking Dead (TV show).

 

At the moment I just think "woops, sprint 1 second out of harms way then walk for 20 metres. Now the zombies are all staring at the floor again and I'm safe."

You're quite sure you're playing the latest update, where there are much large number of zombies, zombies that regularly move about the world, and zombies that persistently move exist? Because it really doesn't seem that way.

 

If you don't find that boring and against zombie lore then you're contradicting yourself.

You really punish someone for trying to find an interesting aspect of your idea and endorsing it, while not embracing the whole thing, don't you.

So, let's cover this one last time: The game is based on Brooks/Romero lore with a bit of the dev's own vision thrown in. It isn't the Walking Dead (though I'm sure that plays a part) and thus can't contradict your own interpretation of Walking Dead lore.

 

It just seems that the alpha is becoming more focused on how strong an individual zombie has to be and how gimped the player is to determine difficulty.

With a more detailed skill/trait system, it's now your choice if your character is punished for being low-level or no level.

Zombies haven't changed.

 

I have played the new alpha 32 and I agree it's challenging, but for all the wrong reasons. A horde shouldn't converge on your location, forcing you to move camp. They should migrate across your path, but not destroy everything in the process without even seeing you. It doesn't even make sense from a Brooks/Romero standpoint.

 

If you happen to be in their path, guess what: they're migrating through you and whatever is in their way.

 

How does it not make sense in Brooks, Romero, and even Walking Dead lore?

 

The comic book even features hordes so massive that they destroy homes simply by migrating.

 

The fact you can still do this depresses me:

 

Would it make you feel better if I told you not everyone is capable of doing that, and likely not consistently?

 

You should die in this game because of accidentally attracting a (new, faster) horde, a risky plan of action that went badly or same sort of sneak attack you didn't see.

You do already. That's one of the bigger perks of build 32.

 

Perhaps you should look at playing in Sandbox if the main game isn't difficult enough for you.

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Zombies haven't changed, no. But the player has become weaker, which wouldn't be apparent if you didn't know that. You'd just assume zombie strength had been buffed. But zombie/player strength means nothing when zombies are too slow to be a threat. That's my point. Perhaps you're right and not everyone is having an easy time of the new build. But as stated: neither am I. It's difficult, but for the wrong reasons in my opinion. Not that I was refering to zombie/player changes just based on this build. I was refering to changes made since the game's first alpha release. We've come a long way since one-shotting knife kills, but they still seem focused on making it harder to kill one individual zombie, when that's not where the challenge is lacking.

 

I never stated that zombies should be faster than the player, quite the opposite if you actually read my post properly. I'm saying that you shouldn't able to kite around zombies and implementing a speed:groupsize ratio would negate that ability. You don't lose anything by this implementation, because it sounds like you're having trouble with the game's zombies already, so you likely avoid them anyway. This is for more experienced players who are tired of running rings around hordes with no consequences. This wouldn't effect your game at all if you're avoiding big groups anyway.

 

This could even be a sandbox implementation. It doesn't have to be the staple survival settings. But for me and many others, the line between tediously easy and insanely hard is too thin. Running zombies are way too difficult, if not pointless. I haven't seen one successful playthrough that lasted longer than 3 days with running zombies. Yet you seem to have no problem with that? I'd like faster zombies, but not as fast as running, just fast enough for me not to be able to kite them with ease. Whether or not you think "not everyone is capable of doing that" is irrelevant - it can be done. That video I linked is Alpha 32, what more proof do you need?

 

I'd like the game to be harder on terms that I (and numerous films and literature) believe coincides with zombie lore. And zombies that get faster in groups is closer to Max Brooks than running zombies, which are already in the game. Q.E.D.

 

It just seems to me you're being negative to incite me personally by systematically shutting down all my valid points, because I have a view that conflicts with the developers, which is silly. This is a forum for expressing suggestions, not to be shot down by Mr High Post Count.

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I'm not involved in the combat revamp myself (I'm the lowly writer) but I'd imagine that some of your issues in terms of one-on-one character himself/herself are the self-same ones that'll we'll be addressing.

 

As for the faster clumped zombies thing, I'd say it's worth experimenting with and I'll flag it with the guys. Not necessarily as something instantly to go into Survival but it'd for sure make a good Sandbox option or as a part of a fun/individual Challenge mode.

 

[No promises though, clearly, as I am the inconsequential wordsmith.]

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Zombies haven't changed, no. But the player has become weaker

Yes, and you're the one that controls how weak your character is through the skill and traits system.

It's very easy to have a powerful character if you experiment.

But zombie/player strength means nothing when zombies are too slow to be a threat.

The zombie's numbers are what count, not their attributes such as speed.

We've come a long way since one-shotting knife kills, but they still seem focused on making it harder to kill one individual zombie, when that's not where the challenge is lacking.

You can shove them and knock them on their ass without even having a weapon or a skill point. You can one-shot them with pens, pencils, and knives (the only requirement baring a recent bug in multiplayer) being your timing.

Individual zombies are nothing outside of an element of surprise and I do not how you could have got the impression that they're somehow getting more difficult over the entire development of the game.

I never stated that zombies should be faster than the player, quite the opposite if you actually read my post properly. I'm saying that you shouldn't able to kite around zombies and implementing a speed:groupsize ratio would negate that ability.

That's on me: I misinterpreted that aspect of your post.

You're wrong in assuming this will limit kiting, however. It'll just alter the pattern slightly: instead of working toward an amassed clump, we'll just go back to the old method of luring small groups of zombies away from the main body.

If you do not see how zombies almost breaking into a run is counter to Brooks/Romero lore, then I suppose we have nothing to more to discuss.

I'd like faster zombies, but not as fast as running, just fast enough for me not to be able to kite them with ease. Whether or not you think "not everyone is capable of doing that" is irrelevant - it can be done. That video I linked is Alpha 32, what more proof do you need?

This is often proposed as a sandbox setting and one day I'd like to see it.

It just seems to me you're being negative to incite me personally by systematically shutting down all my valid points, because I have a view that conflicts with the developers, which is silly. This is a forum for expressing suggestions, not to be shot down by Mr High Post Count.

I like aspects of your ideas and dislike others. I've given my opinion on both aspects.

This forum exists for discussion of suggestions, not simply acceptance of them. If you are unwilling to hear another's take, then I do not know why you posted.

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Not sure if my opinion is wanted or warranted here but...

Yes you can get huge hordes, and yes you can try to control them with shotguns and other loud noises, but the thing you're NOT mentioning is that if I had so much as been TOUCHED by one of those zombies due to things like, running out of stamina, getting hungry or thirsty causing encumbrance, or get a little too cocky; I would've been dead in seconds; In fact that HAS happened to me on MANY occasions. Even without that kind of zombie density, as another example, I had an 8 month character in survival mode die due to ONE scratch because I was cocky and assumed I could loot with impunity! By one zombie, I mean a single zombie, in the corner of the room, which I had missed when I went in to look for books. The Romero style lore leads into human fallacy and complacency. When you are constantly on vigil you can out-think and out-distance the zombies, yes. However as soon as you feel you are safe and take little to no precaution you find yourself ripped to shreds, or just scratched / bitten, and then dead shortly thereafter.

As a further side note, the reason to pull all the zombies like that in the youtube clip was BECAUSE Shannon got exhausted while out looting! Her sprinting pace became a very very slow walk, so in order to keep zombies away, I pulled all the focus. Dangerous? Yes. Could that have gotten both of us killed? Yes, but desperate times call for desperate measures in an effort to keep the whole party alive!

I know its fun to envision our favourite franchises blending, but I think other zombie lore stuff should be left to sandbox or mods. Again this is just my opinion as a long time lover of the game. 

As a final aside, if I recall correctly, even that MP character in the clip was ruined by a small amount of zombies: out too late at night, got tired, vision range decreased, and I didn't see the one coming to grab me. That slowed me down, giving the other 2 or 3 zombies in the area time to come in and finish the job. Getting grabbed is the cause of my death like 85% of the time, and in recent patches I THINK the grab was given a little more oomph.

So that's my two cents worth, hope it helps :)

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I'll accept the fact that they might not get any faster, although I still feel it could be done so that it wouldn't be intrusive or seem lore breaking, after all the zombies already are "sprinting" faster than the player is walking or at least an equal speed... I'm mostly suggesting to lengthen that and slightly add to the faster shamblers' speeds. I'm starting to realize that the film makers have taken some editing freedom when creating the more fast paced bits and zombies do indeed just slouch forward. And I did recheck the zombie survival guide and that too confirms that they do just stride forward.

 

But the bit that still bothers me is the thing that they stop at the point where they last saw you.

 

I'm hoping that we'll get animations to being exhausted, which could warrant a slightly further reduction of speed without things looking off. I think that the current animation looks a bit off when you're tired and tricks my mind into feeling that I should be going faster.

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"The zombie's numbers are what count, not their attributes such as speed."

 

Heavily disagree. Their speed is the entirety of their danger factor. This is the reason people can kite zombies all day long. Increased speed of clumped zombies would make that impossible, thus eliminating this 'attract the horde away from base with shotgun' mentality, which seems to be the universal standard of play whenever trouble arises.

 

"Individual zombies are nothing outside of an element of surprise and I do not how you could have got the impression that they're somehow getting more difficult over the entire development of the game."

 

I'm not sure how long you've been with the development of this game, but back when 0.2.0q was practically the official release (in that I mean the most stable build to date), one-shotting zombies with an invincible fireaxe was prevalent. Zombies would fall over sometimes, but nothing like how it is now. 99 times out of 100 it would explode their brain instantly on the first hit. The knife was even more OP considering it required next to no exertion, the only difference being that range made it more risky. Zombies are a hell of a lot more difficult to take out now. It's been like this ever since the graphics overhaul around 2 years ago.

 

"It'll just alter the pattern slightly: instead of working toward an amassed clump, we'll just go back to the old method of luring small groups of zombies away from the main body."

 

That's how it should be. But again small groups that make up a big horde would still gain a buff in speed under my idea, and it would become time-consuming to the extent of pointlessness to do so. Again negating the kiting issue.

 

"But the bit that still bothers me is the thing that they stop at the point where they last saw you."

 

I'm right behind this. I feel like if they continued in the direction you were going for a lot longer it would add more realism. Especially if you accidentally lured a whole horde back with you! The idea of running from a fast, crazed horde and taking shelter in a random house and watching them all flood passed you while peeking out the window would be exhilarating!

 

I'm not involved in the combat revamp myself (I'm the lowly writer) but I'd imagine that some of your issues in terms of one-on-one character himself/herself are the self-same ones that'll we'll be addressing.

 

As for the faster clumped zombies thing, I'd say it's worth experimenting with and I'll flag it with the guys. Not necessarily as something instantly to go into Survival but it'd for sure make a good Sandbox option or as a part of a fun/individual Challenge mode.

 

[No promises though, clearly, as I am the inconsequential wordsmith.]

 

Just that my idea is taken into consideration is a great achievement for me. I don't post lightly, due to the fact I haven't felt the need to comment until now. I assumed the speed of zombies would be increased by now without my input. My intention wasn't to get it into survival, but if it could somehow be implemented into an alpha for testing then that would be amazing. That's the whole point of alpha testing, to get feedback!

 

I really appreciate forwarding the idea for testing purposes though, thank you.

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Honestly, I die like 7/10 times I try and kite zombie hordes. Twiggy is a project zomboid & survival game genius, and even he dies from doing it. One wrong step, one missed zombie, and you're dead meat.

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Honestly, I die like 7/10 times I try and kite zombie hordes. Twiggy is a project zomboid & survival game genius, and even he dies from doing it. One wrong step, one missed zombie, and you're dead meat.

 

 

 

The game has always been about that one zombie that gets you and I totally agree that the majority of players aren't geniuses (which is why I'd like to see it as a sandbox option first at least), but in the realms of realism nobody in their right mind would try to kite a zombie horde. But being a game, where your "life" doesn't matter, people will attempt it regardless. So finding a way to make it counter-productive for players would make it a more accurate simulation. 7/10 would mean it's effective 30% of the time, which is quite unrealistic if you were to try it in a real zombie apocolypse!

 

A horde of zombies should be terrifying, not waiting for one zombie to sneak up on you at some point.

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"The zombie's numbers are what count, not their attributes such as speed."

 

Heavily disagree. Their speed is the entirety of their danger factor. This is the reason people can kite zombies all day long. Increased speed of clumped zombies would make that impossible, thus eliminating this 'attract the horde away from base with shotgun' mentality, which seems to be the universal standard of play whenever trouble arises.

This isn't going to change if they're faster, yet still slower, or even as fast as the player. though. You're only altering the distance that the player will need to be to either kite or attract a horde away.

In some ways, this increased speed in groups should just make it simpler to distract zombies from their primary target. The faster they follow that shotgun blast, the faster they're away from the problem area, the faster you can loop around return to your old life.

 

"Individual zombies are nothing outside of an element of surprise and I do not how you could have got the impression that they're somehow getting more difficult over the entire development of the game."

 

I'm not sure how long you've been with the development of this game . . .

I've been a community member since September 28th 2011. Not quite the beginning, but close enough. I've moderated the community since January 2013, and have been working in a support role since December 2014. I now moderate the Steam, Reddit, and TIS communities.

 

. . . but back when 0.2.0q was practically the official release (in that I mean the most stable build to date), one-shotting zombies with an invincible fireaxe was prevalent. Zombies would fall over sometimes, but nothing like how it is now. 99 times out of 100 it would explode their brain instantly on the first hit. The knife was even more OP considering it required next to no exertion, the only difference being that range made it more risky. Zombies are a hell of a lot more difficult to take out now. It's been like this ever since the graphics overhaul around 2 years ago.

Really? Maybe I've just played for so long that it doesn't feel much harder now, certainly not to the point of intentionally strengthening zombies and weakening the player.

I'm sorry you find the implementation of a more complex combat system so detrimental. Perhaps you'd like to play on Sandbox with weak zombies, stats decrease on slow, and endurance regain on high to regain that old feeling?

 

"It'll just alter the pattern slightly: instead of working toward an amassed clump, we'll just go back to the old method of luring small groups of zombies away from the main body."

That's how it should be. But again small groups that make up a big horde would still gain a buff in speed under my idea, and it would become time-consuming to the extent of pointlessness to do so. Again negating the kiting issue.

That's what we thought when large hordes were introduced, instead of the widely spread out, standing-around zombies.

It didn't work out that way, did it?

 

"But the bit that still bothers me is the thing that they stop at the point where they last saw you."

 

I'm right behind this. I feel like if they continued in the direction you were going for a lot longer it would add more realism. Especially if you accidentally lured a whole horde back with you! The idea of running from a fast, crazed horde and taking shelter in a random house and watching them all flood passed you while peeking out the window would be exhilarating!

Increase their memory in sandbox. It should work better with the new spawning system.

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"This isn't going to change if they're faster, yet still slower, or even as fast as the player. though. You're only altering the distance that the player will need to be to either kite or attract a horde away."

 

Yes, but that's the point. If the zombies are fast enough that you only get half as many shotgun blasts out than usual, that's still a huge increase in making horde kiting more redundant. I see your point though, it doesn't stop luring them away entirely. But it's an effort to make the process more time-consuming and risky. Faster zombies in a pack means more chances to get grabbed.

 

"Really? Maybe I've just played for so long that it doesn't feel much harder now, certainly not to the point of intentionally strengthening zombies and weakening the player. I'm sorry you find the implementation of a more complex combat system so detrimental. Perhaps you'd like to play on Sandbox with weak zombies, stats decrease on slow, and endurance regain on high to regain that old feeling?"

 

I don't want the old feeling. It's certainly more realistic now, but as I've already stated: the developers seem transfixed on this being the solution to difficulty. Purely for nostalgia, here's a link to an old video of 0.2.0q. Skip to 1:40 to see how effective that fireaxe is! Also skip to 19:00 for an example of how I should feel when surrounded by zombies, but I digress.

 

 

"That's what we thought when large hordes were introduced, instead of the widely spread out, standing-around zombies. It didn't work out that way, did it?"

 

No, and people are still complaining about it. Part of what makes zombie attacks so worrying is that one might wander into your base area. Around 90% of zombies now stand around idle so again another level of tension has been removed. Again, just my opinion.

 

"Increase their memory in sandbox. It should work better with the new spawning system."

 

I'll give that a try, actually!

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I have to say that I somewhat agree with the speed issue. I made a post about it a while ago, but it seems that many people don't want the speed changed at all.

 

I personally think that there just needs to be slightly more variation and zombie speeds shouldn't be off/on/sprint, where "on" is a constant speed of a zombie, even if it's just walking around. I think that the "sprint" should be much longer and also slightly faster and also gradual. When a zombie gets closer to you it should slowly start gaining speed imo, I think it would increase the feel that it is gaining on its food and would feel more fluent altogether. Why would a zombie slow down after it lunges or gains on you? Aren't they supposed to be basically tireless?

 

And here comes the topic of player speed that was discussed on another topic. It would seem that we're going to get gradual speed (a Mondoid showed gradual speeding up animations) for the player, which I think would be great for balancing this out. I personally also dislike the fact that you can simply walk away from a horde and there's no way that they'll be able to follow you. I think in Max Brooks lore it's stated that what makes zombies so dangerous is not the fact that they're fast, but very durable. They'll walk or shamble after you for miles on end, and when you're tired, that's when they get you. But with these current speeds it simply isn't possible. You'll just walk away and they'll be left in the horizon within a few blocks. Even hordes.

 

And last in my points is just that. Big hordes stop after they lose sight of you. Zombies altogether stop when they find the spot that they last saw you in. That means there would be no chance of wandering hordes in the game as it's presented to the player. Sure we can make scripted events that send mega hordes coming past your base and I'm for that, but it would seem silly when what you're seeing when they come after you is the opposite. They stop and then they start wandering on the spot. They should continue to the direction they were heading without stopping as long as they lose interest or find something more interesting. This would go with the gradual speed. Once they've lost sight of you and gone past the point where they last saw/heard you/anything they'd start to gradually lose interest and stop. unless in hordes. I mean, how do zombies know how to stop at a certain place where they heard a gunshot. It's not like they should have pin point hearing. Also that would in my opinion show or at least hint of intellect which should be a no no. This might be an issue after the zombies have gone out of the loaded range, but still it bothers me that they just drop back and say "Hmm... It was probably nothing." Well at least they don't get back to their post. :P

There is something you can do to fix that. If you are in sandbox mode just set their memory to "long" or whatever it is called. :)

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The scaling speed based on horde size is an interesting concept. Yes, please to the idea that a horde of zombies gains some kind of itinerant momentum, rather than just stopping dead like a lone zombie without any stimuli. These are good ideas, and I'd love to see them toyed with a bit.

 

The kite-and-shoot "technique" ... oh how I wish this consistently caused more problems than it fixed.

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I just want to put my two cents in the hat:

 

Maybe when the zombies are getting closer to you, some of them gain a bit more of speed and try to grab you (New animations someday maybe) and if they fail to do so, they trip,but if they manage to do so, they will knock you down(Animations for knocking down)?

 

Like imagine a big horde coming towards you, like a big ass horde, you try to walk backwards (the devs said you could fall if you are panicking and walking backwards), and you see 3 or 4 zombies coming forward (maybe fresh or recently infected), walking or limbing a bit tad faster than the rest, they will lunge at you and catch you while doing so, making you and the zombie fall down.

 

I want the Night Of the Dead Romero zombies but we have Dawn of the dead tier zombies too (fast shamblers), so it could be possible that if they see a prey near, they get more agitated and thus, gain speed at the cost of balance.

 

What we REALLY need though is a grab animation, so if we get close to a zombie, we get a chance of begin grabbed by them, i really hope they have that animation in place along side the combat/running animations (which i think i read somewhere in a mondoid, can be wrong tho).

 

 

Animation revamp pls

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I would like to see sprinting type of zombie, but i don't like the "Need for Speed, Horde Edition" idea. I just don't get it, why zombies in group would be faster than the single ones?

Be the first to the meat :D

But seriously, the speed in numbers thing makes no sense to me.

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I would like to see sprinting type of zombie, but i don't like the "Need for Speed, Horde Edition" idea. I just don't get it, why zombies in group would be faster than the single ones?

Be the first to the meat :D

But seriously, the speed in numbers thing makes no sense to me.

 

 

My idea wasn't to make sense in lore, but your joke reply is actually viable. It's just the feeling of more threat in greater numbers. But the only threat is your own error, by accidentally walking into a zombie or a misclick. Neither feel like very satisfying deaths. I just think "stupid game mechanics" instead.

 

As stated originally, hordes are no threat at all. When the reality is they should be the definitive, singular threat of the game. Dying to a horde is more satisfying that getting nicked on the arm and slowly waiting to die in your bunker.

 

A proposed speed revamp, even if purely a sandbox addition, would give players a new experience, and kiting hordes would become extremely risky as a result. As they should be. You wouldn't kite a horde in real life.

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