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I suggested this on the old forums but wanted to repeat it here...

 

Way back when the pistol and reloading mechanism was a mod, not part of the vanilla game, the "hardcore" reloading style was the only one available. Although realistic, it was rather buggy and definitely not user-friendly, and I definitely support making the "style" of reloading an option in PZ's settings rather than forcing one set style (easy, normal, hardcore) on the player.

 

However, the old mod version of reloading had something that I don't think was included when it was incorporated into the vanilla game version: shotguns had to be "pumped" between shots.

 

If you hadn't tried it, it sounds dreadful and annoying, right? But I recall that once I got used to it, it was such a visceral, cool-feeling concept of shooting, whacking space to rack the shotgun slide, shoot, repeat. It did take getting used to, but it made the shotgun feel more "real" to me than any shotgun in any other game. It also balanced out the power/capacity of the gun (especially compared to the pistol) nicely, IMO.

 

What I'd LOVE to see is this added back in. Not forced, because I'm sure loads of new players would utterly hate it, but with added via a menu option (below "Reloading" in the Options menu?) to let the player choose between:

 

  • Easy: Shotguns are all semi-auto (as the game is now)
  • Normal/Hardcore: Shotguns must be pumped before each shot (as described above)

 

Keeping this option separate from the pistol reloading would satisfy players (like me) who wanted one
but not the other.

 

Ideally, this would only affect the current shotgun in the game ("pump action"), so at some point in the future, either vanilla or via a mod, a new double-barrel shotgun (never needs to be pumped but only holds two shots) could be added for balance and variety. It would also allow for bolt-action rifles to be added to the game at some point too.

 

All that is "future stuff" that doesn't need to be worried about now, yes, but getting the basis of a "cock/rack before each shot" gun mechanism into the game at this point would make such future additions more viable as well as making shotguns more realistic (right now, why ever use a pistol instead of a shotgun?).

 

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I am 100% in favour of this. Would be annoying to get use to (as you said takes getting use to), but overall I can see the challenge and quality in it. :)

 

When I first encountered it in the aforementioned mod, my first thought was "what idiot thought THIS was a good idea?" Half an hour later, I was LOVING how immersive it felt, *click-clack-boom"-ing zombies!

Maybe the one we have in-game is a gas reloading shotgun?

In all seriousness, though, I like this and it should certainly go in I think.

Heh, that's how I explain it in my head right now. Even though I'm sure the sound effect sounds like the player racking the side after each shot despite the lack of such ann animation.

 

There's a reason no other game makes you rack shotguns before firing: it's confusing, annoying and unintuitive (you expect to press the fire button and your gun just fires, like every other game). But it's also AWESOME in a survival game, I discovered, as I - playing a character with no firearm skills - forgot to rack the slide at first, leading to maulings. Or panicked when surrounded and racked it twice, wasting a shell. I was shocked at what a great balance between "fun" and "realism" it was.

 

In all honesty, I'm someone who gets confused and slightly annoyed by some of the staunch "realism" purists regarding PZ (for example, I still think an optional map would improve the game a hundredfold), and I certainly wouldn't inflict this shotgun firing system as a default or only way to play... but I'm a huge fan of options and letting players make/play a game the way THEY want, and this would be something I'm betting more than a few players would love once they got used to whacking the spacebar (or whatever) between deafening blasts.

 

*Click-clack-Boom!*

 

Did I mention that it would allow the easy and fun addition of a 2-shot-only-but-no-pump-required-double-barreled-shotgun? Oh yeah, I did! :)

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I am 100% in favour of this. Would be annoying to get use to (as you said takes getting use to), but overall I can see the challenge and quality in it. :)

 

When I first encountered it in the aforementioned mod, my first thought was "what idiot thought THIS was a good idea?" Half an hour later, I was LOVING how immersive it felt, *click-clack-boom"-ing zombies!

Maybe the one we have in-game is a gas reloading shotgun?

In all seriousness, though, I like this and it should certainly go in I think.

Heh, that's how I explain it in my head right now. Even though I'm sure the sound effect sounds like the player racking the side after each shot despite the lack of such ann animation.

 

There's a reason no other game makes you rack shotguns before firing: it's confusing, annoying and unintuitive (you expect to press the fire button and your gun just fires, like every other game). But it's also AWESOME in a survival game, I discovered, as I - playing a character with no firearm skills - forgot to rack the slide at first, leading to maulings. Or panicked when surrounded and racked it twice, wasting a shell. I was shocked at what a great balance between "fun" and "realism" it was.

 

In all honesty, I'm someone who gets confused and slightly annoyed by some of the staunch "realism" purists regarding PZ (for example, I still think an optional map would improve the game a hundredfold), and I certainly wouldn't inflict this shotgun firing system as a default or only way to play... but I'm a huge fan of options and letting players make/play a game the way THEY want, and this would be something I'm betting more than a few players would love once they got used to whacking the spacebar (or whatever) between deafening blasts.

 

*Click-clack-Boom!*

 

Did I mention that it would allow the easy and fun addition of a 2-shot-only-but-no-pump-required-double-barreled-shotgun? Oh yeah, I did! :)

 

 

And those staunch realism people are why there are various reloading difficulties. They'll probably add this, and similar things for every other gun they add, then lump it all into the difficulty choices on the options menu.

 

I for one love the hardcore reloading, because I have no firearm experience whatsoever in real life, so I freak the fuck out like I would in my character's shoes because I don't even know what it means to "rack" a firearm.

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And those staunch realism people are why there are various reloading difficulties. They'll probably add this, and similar things for every other gun they add, then lump it all into the difficulty choices on the options menu.

 

I for one love the hardcore reloading, because I have no firearm experience whatsoever in real life, so I freak the fuck out like I would in my character's shoes because I don't even know what it means to "rack" a firearm.

 

Exactly! The more options, the better! It's why when people say "no minimap ever!" I get cross because as long as you can turn it off, so what? I personally prefer the newer "lighter" nights, but I wouldn't mind if an option for "darker nights" was added to the menu. Sandbox mode is damn awesome for all you can change, too (I actually think Shamblers feel more like "proper zombies" than the game's default ones!).

 

And yeah, I wish hardcore pistol reloading wasn't broken right now, as I loved it too. As I said in my first post, when I first tried the reloading mod (back then, the shotgun didn't need reloading and there were no pistols in the base game) I was initially confused and annoyed at the complexity, but quickly came to love it. Reloading pistol clips by hand takes ages, but if you have a bunch of them already loaded, it make it a far more viable weapon choice. Like you, with no real-world firearms skills myself, it felt wonderfully realistic to panic, aim and fire and hear "click" because I'd forgotten to rack the slide after reloading! I learned along with my character as I played! :)

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I agree with adding more gun reloading choices but disagree about the mini map for one very simple reason. Sandbox is not an excuse to add anything anyone wants to the game just because it's sandbox. It's there to add options for things that already make sense in the context of the game and in the direction the developers want it to go. Adding a minimap goes directly in the face of everything they're trying to accomplish with PZ. It's gamey, it's unrealistic, and those are the two things they strive every day not to do with PZ.

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At first I didn't like to have to pump the shotgun, but... Yeah, definitely love it.

 

On a side note, it reminds me of Receiver, a fun little game (can find on Steam) which was more an experiment of a FPS, where all the gun mechanics had to be done manually. Sounds tiresome ? It isn't, and after a few minutes, when you get used to it, you just wish you could do that in other games. I highly recommend to check it, it's really interesting.

 

so +1 for me.

 

and -1 for the minimap ^^

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The shotgun already pumps on hardcore mode. Go into the options screen and scroll to the bottom. There's a little glitch for me that causes the pulldown to jump upwards when you click but if you find it and change the setting to Hardcore, you'll have to pump between each shot. And you'll need to use magazines with the pistol.

 

May only work on new games.

 

If there is a lot of requests for easy reloading with the pistol and hardcore with the shotgun I can add a few more difficulty levels.


And yeah, I wish hardcore pistol reloading wasn't broken right now, as I loved it too.

 

 

Can you expand or point me to the support thread? I've just uploaded a mod that updates the reloading and may fix your problems. You can find it here:

 

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/3238-adding-more-guns/

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Simply love the idea of pump action shotguns working differently from semi-automatics (i.e. manually working a slide back and forth to cycle a round into the chamber between each shot aka "pumping/racking") , however this should be the case only with pump/bolt action guns.

 

I find the hardcore mode that magically changes all shotguns in KY from semi-auto to old-school pump action somewhat ridiculous though (unless they also make a mode that changes all the Zs into ponies).

 

Perhaps a more realistic approach can be used: i.e. some guns need to be racked (pump action shotguns / bolt action rifles) , while others don't (automatics / semiautomatics - this includes pistols)

 

Racking semi-automatic weapons before each shot irl is simply stupid, but should have it's place in game, as long as the *click-clack-boom" enthusiasts don't mind wasting a perfect round every time they pump.

 

Reloading a semi/auto weapon takes 2-5 seconds if you have another clip ready, or a few minutes if you are loading ammo out of the box (depending on the clip size). There is no other way. Period.

 

If this mechanic is introduced for the sake of realism, then a few other things also have to be considered:

 

-short stroking - which is considered to be one of the main problems when operating a pump action shotgun (especially under stress) which basically means that you wont be able to shoot every time you pull the trigger.

 

-pump action shotguns cannot be operated with only 1 hand - in case of serious arm injury you would only get 1 shot (I'm well aware of Hollywood-style one-handed racks/reloads- this doesn't work irl though and should remain in the "deo-flamethrower/minimap" category)

 

- racking a gun before shooting would give away your position to pretty much everyone around (alerting the Zs and/or giving other survivors time to prepare for your attack)

 

Overall, a great suggestion and I would really like to see it implemented.

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Nota bene, unless you've loaded a round manually into the chamber you do have to rack all firearms at least once, regardless of what style and for many you have to rack one from the clip the first time (depending on the style of weapon).

 

 


Racking semi-automatic weapons before each shot irl is simply stupid, but should have it's place in game, as long as the *click-clack-boom" enthusiasts don't mind wasting a perfect round every time they pump.

 

 

I'm assuming most of said enthusiasts are considering pump action shotguns when they mention this. Also, I'm not sure where you're from, but where I'm from semi-automatic shotguns are quite rare. It's not that they don't make them, it's just that:

 

1) There's very little practical application outside of professional skeet/trap shooting (if they're even allowed, which I'm not sure of),

 

2) They're quite expensive compared to pump/break action shotguns,

 

3) They tend to jam frequently (the only one I've ever shot jammed constantly, and I hear the same reports from everyone I've ever known with a civilian semi-auto shotgun), and

 

4) Many people (myself included) simply prefer pump/break action.

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Personally I like autoloaders because it's easier to clear a jam. You have a lot more leverage on the bolt IMO and magazine tube cutoffs help from flooding the chamber with rounds.

 

Semi autos are fairly common where I'm at, and they are favored for skeet and hunting. They don't kick much. The unreliability mostly comes from combos of certain shotguns with low-powered birdshot for practice shooting and brands they don't like. But any gun can be like that - the Stoeger SxS I shot didn't extract with Federal brass, so you had to use a knife to wrench out the empties.

 

However, I do have to warn that realism-based modifiers to gameplay need to also not be unintuitive. For example, dealing with mechanics in Fallout New Vegas, you still solve dehydration and hunger by consuming the foods you eat anyway for health.

 

Rising Storm, one of my favorite military games ever has 'action' and 'realism' modes that alter the damage you recieve, give and weapons handling. The pistols and SMGs retain mags when you reload, so you get 3 bullet mags sometimes if you're running dry. However, they act exactly the same as guns in action mode as far as your inputs. No extra clicks or button presses. All the check-pressing and reloading is already in the base game.

 

So the realism based mods simply change existing mechanics.

 

In the same vein, if hardcore mode adds a mechanic it should already be present and familiar with people who play the game normally. I mean, it sucks if shotguns are such a pain in the ass, but perhaps we can see our player character automatically pump the shotgun and a noise play in a visible manner? And then, in realism mode there's a little icon that shows after firing reminding us to pump it, and adds the chance of jamming?

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The shotgun is OP currently, its range need to be nerfed and getting multiple kills anywhere further then axe range should be uncommon. To offset this ammo should be how common it is currently but can often be found in very large numbers.

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The shotgun is OP currently, its range need to be nerfed and getting multiple kills anywhere further then axe range should be uncommon. To offset this ammo should be how common it is currently but can often be found in very large numbers.

 

The range doesn't really need to be nerfed at all, what really needs to be changed is either the cone or the damage. A cone like you have in PZ right now is impossible even with open choke on a shotgun, and if you even could have a spread that wide you'd have to be firing bird shot to do it, and then you'd simply be annoying most of the zombies. If buck shot you'd probably not hit anything, and slugs are a whole other mess.

 

The other change I see needs doing is making it so that once it hits a zombie, it can't hit those behind it. That will require real projectile tracking on the part of the game, but that's going to have to happen anyways for when they do crossbows and bows. Assuming you got real projectile tracking, you could also track each piece of shot from the shotgun, allowing realistic spread, damage, and hits.

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The shotgun is OP currently, its range need to be nerfed and getting multiple kills anywhere further then axe range should be uncommon. To offset this ammo should be how common it is currently but can often be found in very large numbers.

 

The range doesn't really need to be nerfed at all, what really needs to be changed is either the cone or the damage. A cone like you have in PZ right now is impossible even with open choke on a shotgun, and if you even could have a spread that wide you'd have to be firing bird shot to do it, and then you'd simply be annoying most of the zombies. If buck shot you'd probably not hit anything, and slugs are a whole other mess.

 

The other change I see needs doing is making it so that once it hits a zombie, it can't hit those behind it. That will require real projectile tracking on the part of the game, but that's going to have to happen anyways for when they do crossbows and bows. Assuming you got real projectile tracking, you could also track each piece of shot from the shotgun, allowing realistic spread, damage, and hits.

 

 

Yes, definitely agree here, the main thing I was thinking with range is the fact that to kill a zombie, you need to destroy its brain. A untrained, panicky survivor probably wouldn't be accurate enough to puncher the skull and destroy the brain.

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With a shotgun that's a shot that's fairly easy to make (assuming the right shot), even with a tight choke. Thus the advantage of shotguns over rifles. The unrealistic part is it killing a dozen zombies with one shot XD

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It's pretty easy to balance the shotgun if you have say, a .380 ACP in the game. OO buckshot is essentially nine LRN .380s being fired at once, with similar range and power.


With a shotgun that's a shot that's fairly easy to make (assuming the right shot), even with a tight choke. Thus the advantage of shotguns over rifles. The unrealistic part is it killing a dozen zombies with one shot XD

Aaah, yes. Except slugs, after all. When you fire slugs you realize how bad the sights on shotguns really are.

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I do rather like this idea. With Red Orchestrea 2, and Rising Sotrm i think, though I haven't played the later, you could toggle the 'manual bolting' option.

 

The net result? Click once to fire, click again to move the bolt to ready a new round. Click to fire again. Made the sniping much, much more visceral <3

 

In addition, because your character didn't waste a half second bolting the gun after each shot, this could be a lifesaver when going room-to-room. Boom, melee strike, rebolt the gun.

 

In short, pumping the shottie. Aw yisssss

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Rathlord, nah, the one in game is a pump, you can hear the pump action between shots, just have no personal control over it.
 

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Rathlord, nah, the one in game is a pump, you can hear the pump action between shots, just have no personal control over it.

 

 

That isn't the point of the post.

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