Water collection without carpentry
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So from browsing around the forums it seems like there are a few main issues with collecting water. Some people (myself included) are of the opinion that being able to get a large amount of fresh water from houses after the water goes out is unrealistic (yes I know zombies are unrealistic, shh), and makes the late game too easy given the sheer amount of water fixtures in the world. Barring that, you have to either rely on carpentry or start in West Point.

I would change water collecting in two ways:

First, nerf the gathering of fresh water from houses - make it so that instead of getting, say, 4 bottles worth of water from each water source in the house, you get 4 bottles worth of water from the entire house regardless of which source(s) you gather from.

Second, allow mugs, bowls, pots, jars, buckets, pans, etc. to be placed in the world as rain collectors with different maximum capacities respectively.
This scene from 28 Days Later comes to mind:
T28DAYS_LATER169-7.jpg
The rain collectors made with the carpentry skill would have course gather much more water and use much less space.

Now, I don't know the way the game is coded, but it seems like you'd just have to replicate the functionality of the current rain collector object, but add a parameter for which item was used, and set the max capacity accordingly. The art is already in the game, just use the same sprites as when dropping a pot/mug/bowl/etc. on the ground.

(Ideally one tile would fit more than one mug/bowl/pot/etc. but I feel like that would add a huge amount of complexity to the code.)

Please let me know what you think of my idea!

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Basically, Without checking, I think it's probably super easy to do with modding already... just some code here and then to make it better, also, we would need some more appropriate art but, It's a good Idea to nerf water gathering which is, I agree, too simple to get.

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Basically, Without checking, I think it's probably super easy to do with modding already... just some code here and then to make it better, also, we would need some more appropriate art but, It's a good Idea to nerf water gathering which is, I agree, too simple to get.

well then make it where you can collect less with a garbage bag (or tarp) A few branches, and some rope. It would hold less and leak over time. there, its balanced.

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Basically, Without checking, I think it's probably super easy to do with modding already... just some code here and then to make it better, also, we would need some more appropriate art but, It's a good Idea to nerf water gathering which is, I agree, too simple to get.

well then make it where you can collect less with a garbage bag (or tarp) A few branches, and some rope. It would hold less and leak over time. there, its balanced.

 

You got me wrong, sorry about that. I meant the actual water gathering is way too much easy, from sink and toilets after the water shutdown, not from this idea. It's already balanced since you've got to boil the water before drink it

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I suggested in another thread to keep the current methods and add some alternatives to some of the other skills. 

 

Foraging, engineering and technician all have theoretical options to supply water. Each of these are as likely as carpentry.

 

This would remove the carpentry requirement for a viable long term character,.  And you could put the water options on these skills at level 4 also, which means you're going to need to invest in something to get to water despite the fact that there are multiple ways to achieve your goal..

 

To sum up: more play variety, should be straightforward to code into existing skills. And it doesn't take away water as a game play element like simply putting down a bunch of buckets would do.

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I suggested in another thread to keep the current methods and add some alternatives to some of the other skills.

This seems to be TIS's plan, too.

I did not know.... What a clever guy ;)

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To sum up: more play variety, should be straightforward to code into existing skills. And it doesn't take away water as a game play element like simply putting down a bunch of buckets would do.

 

I get what you mean, but I was thinking it would be very small amounts of water for something like a mug or bowl. Since they have smaller areas to collect from, they would fill slower than pots/pans/buckets. I'm envisioning something along the lines of 20 smaller collectors just to get one to two bottles' worth of water from one rainy day. Not only does that mean you need to use up 20 tiles, but it would also increase the value of kitchenware.

I do like the idea of having multiple professions with a water collecting option, but I think there should be a no-profession option as well, even if it's like 100 times less efficient than with a profession.

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I'm very drunk right now, but I'd think when it's raining... there should be a "right click" option to just "open your mouth and look up" while it's raining.  Seems like a good way to drink water, since I just kinda did that just now and it worked....I think.  But I also have to pee too....

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I'm very drunk right now, but I'd think when it's raining... there should be a "right click" option to just "open your mouth and look up" while it's raining.  Seems like a good way to drink water, since I just kinda did that just now and it worked....I think.  But I also have to pee too....

first of all, good luck with the hangover. second, this isn't a bad idea but i feel it would be nice if your player could get it anyway while in the rain by standing still and not doing anything else. better than having to click your character every time.

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I do like the idea of having multiple professions with a water collecting option, but I think there should be a no-profession option as well, even if it's like 100 times less efficient than with a profession.

 

Why should there be? We can assume that any player after at least one or two attempts has figured out how to get to water before the water cuts out.

 

In general in a game I  have no problems being punished for being stupid. As long as I can avoid the problem in a way that pleases me. Having to pick carpentry while I'm not a carpenter is a solution I don't like. I tend to make very few modifications to my safe houses. Which ironically forces me to pick a carpenter profession otherwise I could not get to water without doing a lot more redecorating just to level up a skill I wouldn't really use if I had the choice.

 

People should pick carpentry because they want to do carpentry. Not just to be able to avoid doing it.

 

Not that there's anything wrong with carpentry. I admire all the beautiful safe houses and one day I will build my own. But as a player I find I'm always on the move checking out further and further removed sites, my safe house is little more than a warehouse where I gather the loot. And then in the evenings... I sit on it... And belch fire at mice daring to pick through MY posessions...

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I do like the idea of having multiple professions with a water collecting option, but I think there should be a no-profession option as well, even if it's like 100 times less efficient than with a profession.

 

Why should there be? We can assume that any player after at least one or two attempts has figured out how to get to water before the water cuts out.

 

 

The thing that comes to mind is "eight months later" mode, though I don't play it much myself. Also, if someone wanted to focus on fishing, trapping, foraging, and/or farming without having to invest a lot of time and effort into other professions, that player should have a sustainable way to collect water.

Also, from an if-PZ's-zombie-apocalypse-actually-happened-in-real-life standpoint, it seems obvious to me to use containers that already exist (like in the screenshot in my original post) instead of going through the trouble of building one. If you're in an area where it's safe to settle down, then by all means build a larger, more efficient collector, but if Les Stroud has taught me anything, I'd say use what you already have.

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Why should there be? We can assume that any player after at least one or two attempts has figured out how to get to water before the water cuts out.

 

 

The thing that comes to mind is "eight months later" mode, though I don't play it much myself. Also, if someone wanted to focus on fishing, trapping, foraging, and/or farming without having to invest a lot of time and effort into other professions, that player should have a sustainable way to collect water.

Also, from an if-PZ's-zombie-apocalypse-actually-happened-in-real-life standpoint, it seems obvious to me to use containers that already exist (like in the screenshot in my original post) instead of going through the trouble of building one. If you're in an area where it's safe to settle down, then by all means build a larger, more efficient collector, but if Les Stroud has taught me anything, I'd say use what you already have.

 

Well, the initial idea was to have other professions gain access to water, not just the carpentry branch. So focusing on foraging would  yield water..

 

And what you say is obvious. IRL we would just open a garbage bin and use it as a rain collector. However, from a game standpoint water should be a hurdle to overcome. Having every garbage bin in the world that happens to stand in the outside serve as a water collector means that we lose that game element.

 

I never played 8 months later. Maybe that is a good argument. I do not know. I don't know how players survive the first days in that mode now. I imagine they go looking for water bottles.

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For people that like playing SP, it's really difficult to be a jack-of-all-trades.  In MP, sure, it's easy to have a carpenter, engineer, electrician, etc.  But if it's just you alone out there in the zombie world, it shouldn't be so difficult.  I don't mind searching for skill books or recipes, but I'd really like a dual-profession, or the option to have hunting or electrician as a "hobby" by being something you can pick during character creation.

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For people that like playing SP, it's really difficult to be a jack-of-all-trades.  In MP, sure, it's easy to have a carpenter, engineer, electrician, etc.  But if it's just you alone out there in the zombie world, it shouldn't be so difficult.  I don't mind searching for skill books or recipes, but I'd really like a dual-profession, or the option to have hunting or electrician as a "hobby" by being something you can pick during character creation.

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/15037-multiple-jobs-in-a-balanced-way/#entry186574

an old suggestion of mine

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For people that like playing SP, it's really difficult to be a jack-of-all-trades.  In MP, sure, it's easy to have a carpenter, engineer, electrician, etc.  But if it's just you alone out there in the zombie world, it shouldn't be so difficult.  I don't mind searching for skill books or recipes, but I'd really like a dual-profession, or the option to have hunting or electrician as a "hobby" by being something you can pick during character creation.

I try to get a single point on most stats... to make the character an all rounder. But as said, I do always base it on a carpenter because I don't want to have to grind carpentry just to put up the occasional shelf.  :)

 

It's fairly doable. I don't really get the difference between skills and professions... A profession is really just another skill wrapped in a different package.

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Well, the initial idea was to have other professions gain access to water, not just the carpentry branch. So focusing on foraging would  yield water..

 

 

And what you say is obvious. IRL we would just open a garbage bin and use it as a rain collector. However, from a game standpoint water should be a hurdle to overcome. Having every garbage bin in the world that happens to stand in the outside serve as a water collector means that we lose that game element.

 

Good point about foraging, maybe that skill would get a dew collector that generated small amounts of water each morning.

I think you're missing my point about just how little water is actually collected from just setting out cups and bowls and stuff. Even a garbage can would only collect a little bit of water at the bottom, and considering that it only rains every once in a while, I think it's safe to say it would take a lot of containers (as shown in the screenshot of my original post) to be even barely sustainable in terms of water. You'd still be thirsty all the time, and if it didn't rain for a long time, you'd be screwed, which is exactly what happens in 28 Days Later.

From a gameplay standpoint, the amount of water collected per container would reflect what I just mentioned. Also, if zombies blunder into your collectors, it would put them in a state of being knocked over, emptying them and disabling them until you put it back.

But that still leaves the issue of the carpentry water collectors being only 1 tile and somehow being more efficient. I would say make the water collector a 3x3 structure that requires 9 garbage bags with a much higher water-collection-per-tile rate than that of the makeshift collectors. I also envision the hypothetical dew collector I was talking about being a 2x2 structure. This should be possible with the implementation of the furniture moving system.  :-D 

Sorry if I'm all over the place here, I'm trying to brainstorm while also maintaining coherency haha

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Okay....

Would you, as a player, go through all that trouble to set up such a water collection system for so little benefits? Or would you put that same investment of energy into getting to water via one of the skills?

 

I hear what you're saying, and I'm sympathetic to your ideas on the subject. I thought the dead walking scene was cool. I've read the same strategy employed in other zombie books. It's a strategy I would certainly use when the inevitable zombie apocalypse comes (With this game we're all merely training aren't we?) 

 

But for a game the consideration changes somewhat.. Water needs to be a gameplay element. It must be fun, not a hassle. Players should be expected to want to use the feature. And all that measured against the dev's time invested versus other time he could invest.

 

In the end I'm not the one to judge your idea though. When the real zombie apocalypse comes, you and me can climb a roof and put down all the water containers we can find.

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i guess easiast way would be to get a skill 0 carpentry watercollector for a lot of stuff, since you are not expirienced in building

maybe take 4 planks 10 nails 15 plasticbags and 2 ducttape or 3 scotch tape to create a thing like the lvl 4 but with the just the capacity of 1 water bottle

 

that would mean you could build something to collect water, but you don´t have to skill in carpentry and to make it not OP the cost is high and palstic bags get a use since they are rarely used as carrybags.

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Knowing the cost. Would you invest time in setting up such a system if you knew you could get to un-nerfed water via a skill and similar investment?

 

The best argument I heard for a lvl 0 method of getting water was starting 8 months later. Yet in that case you won't get your hands on enough plastic bags before dying of thirst.

 

If I abstractly combine your ideas then how about allowing a player to drink some moisture from a wet towel... It's dirt cheap for the player: find a towel, dry yourself off with it, squeeze the moisture into your mouth. Since the water will resolve a little bit of thirst and is an unreliable source. Players will still need to build a more permanent solution. If you're evil you could make the water tainted. 

 

It should be cheap to code, all you need is to be able to drink from a wet towel. No code is required that checks all items on the map outside of containers if they're left out in the rain. And as you guys intend it's only a stop gap to get people across the initial hurdle.

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I love how one of the things that guy put on the roof is more like a clothes basket with tons of holes in it :)

 

Anyway, I always wondered... do houses in the US have rain pipes? IE big plastic pipes that allow the rainwater collected on the roof to drain down into the sewers? Something like this:

http://www.duden.de/_media_/full/R/Regenrohr-201020596687.jpg

You could just cut it open with an axe/saw and put a container underneath it...

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I love how one of the things that guy put on the roof is more like a clothes basket with tons of holes in it :)

 

Anyway, I always wondered... do houses in the US have rain pipes? IE big plastic pipes that allow the rainwater collected on the roof to drain down into the sewers? Something like this:

http://www.duden.de/_media_/full/R/Regenrohr-201020596687.jpg

You could just cut it open with an axe/saw and put a container underneath it...

This is what I choose to believe rain barrels do.

Really, I'd love if they could only be placed against walls and roofs . . .

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With the addition of moving around different prefab furniture pieces that they're working on, why not just make trash bins and recycling bins, with the addition of the same 4 garbage bags and some duct tape, into the equivalent of a current low tier carpentry barrel? You'd need to carry it in both hands to position it, which would make retrieving it dangerous and tedious for outskirt safe houses and long term travel, plus a flimsy plastic drum would not be as structurally robust as a well secured and crafted barrel would, to explain the smaller storage even with the similar size.

 

Carpentry barrels would be the more efficient alternative, whereas the no skill barrels don't require the skill commitment while providing the same long term functionality.

 

With this addition they could also completely nerf how fast barrels fill up since you'd quickly be able to gather more of them and the lvl 8 carpentry barrel is REALLY good. 400 units of water if memory serves.

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Or, with a shovel/spade, you can dig a hole, place a tarp over it, and wait for it to rain.  That would be a very simple rain collector.  I would even be okay with that not being "common knowledge", and require reading a "Boy Scouts handbook" or some kind of recipe book for that.

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