IMPORTANT: FAO DESURA PLAYERS - PLEASE READ

[lemmy101]

 

 

Given today’s news and the unpredictable future of the Desura platform we’d like to recommend all remaining Desura players who haven’t yet found and activated their free Steam key to do so as soon as possible.

You can find instructions here, and if you’re not already a member of our forums and require assistance then our community is also ready and waiting for you. We have no insight into Desura’s future beyond that which is publicly known, so even if you don’t want to activate on Steam right now – please, please copy and paste your key for safekeeping.

Again: instructions for both Desura survivors [and those who previously purchased the game via Google Checkout] can be found here.

As a platform the belief and friendship of Desura’s previous owners made Project Zomboid what it is today. We would especially like to thank Scott and Dave from the old times, and also offer our sympathies to all those losing out in this current sad situation.

The Indie Stone

[LeoIvanov]

Me and Oneline have spread the word on the Russian community page about this. Very sorry to hear about Desura going away, it was the platform I've purchased awesome games on, like Project Zomboid or Neo Scavenger.

[DosBuster]

quick someone archive 0.1.5! We need to preserve the PTSD-ridden NPC bat wielders! 

[EnigmaGrey]

Already up on drop box -- for the past 3(?) years.

[JAAHAS]

What about those of us who would never have supported this game if it had been sold as Steam-exclusive? Are you planning to at least get the finished version released on GOG?

[Rathlord]

What about those of us who would never have supported this game if it had been sold as Steam-exclusive? Are you planning to at least get the finished version released on GOG?

 

First off, just a note that I don't speak for TIS and this is just my opinion, but:

 

No one had any way to predict that this would be happening. It sucks to have to download Steam if you don't want it for some reason, but the game is still completely DRM free there and available, so it's not like you're losing a purchase. I definitely understand your frustration, but personally I don't see them having any obligation to give you more than one option to download a DRM-free game just because you happen to not like a specific storefront.

 

That being said, the guys at TIS are good people and there's no telling what the future might bring. Hopefully there will, at some point, be another option other than Steam, but we don't even know for sure what will happen to Desura so it's probably best to just wait and see for the time being.

[lemmy101]

What about those of us who would never have supported this game if it had been sold as Steam-exclusive? Are you planning to at least get the finished version released on GOG?

 

We 100% definitely want to be on GOG, and even talked to an awesome guy there back in the day at a couple of the shows we've been to. However at this time Early Access isn't an option, so it'd have to wait for 1.0 time.

 

Either way, bear in mind Steam or otherwise, PZ is completely DRM free once it's downloaded.

[JAAHAS]

We 100% definitely want to be on GOG, and even talked to an awesome guy there back in the day at a couple of the shows we've been to. However at this time Early Access isn't an option, so it'd have to wait for 1.0 time.

Either way, bear in mind Steam or otherwise, PZ is completely DRM free once it's downloaded.

Unfortunately I don't see myself creating a Steam account before that service starts to officially list which of it's games are sold as DRM-free, but as long as the release version of PZ and it's subsequent patches can be downloaded from some alternative storefront than Steam, I have nothing to complain as long as I don't get constant spam about the status of the Steam version.

Edit: Stupid autocorrect guessing in two languages what I want to type...

[Rathlord]

 

We 100% definitely want to be on GOG, and even talked to an awesome guy there back in the day at a couple of the shows we've been to. However at this time Early Access isn't an option, so it'd have to wait for 1.0 time.

Either way, bear in mind Steam or otherwise, PZ is completely DRM free once it's downloaded.

Unfortunately I don't see myself creating a Steam account before that service starts to officially list which of it's games are sold as DRM-free, but as long as the release version of PZ and it's subsequent patches can be downloaded from some alternative storefront than Steam, I have nothing to complain as long as I don't get constant spam about the status of the Steam version.

Edit: Stupid autocorrect guessing in two languages what I want to type...

 

 

It's worth noting that Steam/Valve doesn't really have any idea which games are DRM free and which aren't- that's entirely up to the developers of the games. Luckily most devs (like The Indie Stone) are happy to tell you whether they are or aren't, and better yet Project Zomboid is!

[JAAHAS]

 

It's worth noting that Steam/Valve doesn't really have any idea which games are DRM free and which aren't- that's entirely up to the developers of the games. Luckily most devs (like The Indie Stone) are happy to tell you whether they are or aren't, and better yet Project Zomboid is!

When a centralized webstore fails to list what DRM methods are being used in the games they are selling I will not do their work for them any more than I would contact any supplier if a local reseller can't tell me where their goods come from and what are they made of.

[EnigmaGrey]

 

 

It's worth noting that Steam/Valve doesn't really have any idea which games are DRM free and which aren't- that's entirely up to the developers of the games. Luckily most devs (like The Indie Stone) are happy to tell you whether they are or aren't, and better yet Project Zomboid is!

When a centralized webstore fails to list what DRM methods are being used in the games they are selling I will not do their work for them any more than I would contact any supplier if a local reseller can't tell me where their goods come from and what are they made of.

 

Too bad for you then.

Highly recommend researching products and asking questions.

[Rathlord]

 

 

It's worth noting that Steam/Valve doesn't really have any idea which games are DRM free and which aren't- that's entirely up to the developers of the games. Luckily most devs (like The Indie Stone) are happy to tell you whether they are or aren't, and better yet Project Zomboid is!

When a centralized webstore fails to list what DRM methods are being used in the games they are selling I will not do their work for them any more than I would contact any supplier if a local reseller can't tell me where their goods come from and what are they made of.

 

 

I doubt the employees at Gamestop could tell you whether their PC games are DRM locked or not, either. Whatever the problem, in my humble opinion you are not obligated to a separate download option for the game just because you're on a personal crusade against the distribution platform. Again, Valve has NO WAY to collect information on whether people are using DRM or not, in the same way they have no way of telling what genre a game is. Both options are entirely up to the developers to list or not list and chose at their whim. Villainizing Valve is all well and good, and there's several good reasons to be wary of Steam, but this isn't really one of them.

[JAAHAS]

Actually, Valve could easily get that information by simply requiring it to be submitted to them when a dev/publisher wants to have their games sold on Steam.

Gamestop employees working on the customer level could be excused for not knowing every little detail about some old game that has been laying for years on the bargain bin, but when a webstore fails to list the implemented DRM methods on it's digital downloads, it means that those managing the site do not care about providing that information to their customers.

It also means that buying only the unofficially DRM-free titles from that store might not register in their statistics as being the most deciding factor in my buying habits, so the only vote I can cast with my wallet is to boycott them completely.

As for what we are oblidged to, when the developers ask money upfront for an unfinished game, they should not offer a DRM-free version for their backers unless they are committed to rather scrap the whole project than only release it on a DRM-platform. This way they need to only worry about regular gamers being dissappointed to any perceived failings on their game, while those who can abstain from playing DRM'ed games are far less likely to be reasoned with if they have been fooled to help producing yet another Steam-exclusive game.

But it's better to stop arguing about DRM before someone comes in and confuses it with offline copy protection schemes and prompts a heated debate over semantics. The main thing is that the Indie Stone is planning to get their game released on GOG and if that fails for some reason, I hope that they can at least get it on the Humble store.

[Rathlord]

It also means that buying only the unofficially DRM-free titles from that store might not register in their statistics as being the most deciding factor in my buying habits, so the only vote I can cast with my wallet is to boycott them completely.

 

Luckily, you don't have to give Valve a penny to download PZ on there. It's 100% free, and Valve doesn't get any of it when you apply a code generated from Desura purchases.

 

As for what we are oblidged to, when the developers ask money upfront for an unfinished game, they should not offer a DRM-free version for their backers unless they are committed to rather scrap the whole project than only release it on a DRM-platform.

 

Luckily, they're still offering a DRM-free version, because the Steam version is DRM free so you don't have to fret about this at all!

 

Complaining about TIS being forced by completely unforeseeable circumstances to have to rely on Steam for a little while is like complaining because you have to drive to a store to pick up an order. Sure, it's mildly inconvenient, but no one's asking you to give Valve anything and you can uninstall Steam as soon as PZ is downloaded if your crusade dictates that you can't have it on your computer. The game doesn't need Steam to launch and can run completely independently of the platform.

[Jab]

As long as the content from the game I purchase is honest work, and I know what I am buying, then I am good. 

 

If I felt Valve is not the right store to buy and play this game, then I'd wait. I had Desura, and played this game back in 2012 / 2013 a few times. I ran into several issues with Desura, but was more disappointed at not being able to play for some reason involving Desura's client. I put the game down for a year and a half or so. Project Zomboid's choice to change to Steam allowed me to play this game again without hassle. 

 

I really wanted Desura to be the indie-supporting marketplace that I dreamed of, much better than WildTangent or some other digital store. Things happen and money changes great services for the better or worse. 

 

If anything, the option to have the ability to display information as a vendor rather than forced to a very rigid and strict way to display information about the game really speaks volumes. If a company utilizes this mechanic to display their products with poor judgement and business practices, then there's no wrong doing for Valve. In a weird way, to see bad products (not everything or most things) is another way of knowing that there's choice, and there's freedom to try things, sometimes not as good as others. 

 

I don't think that this situation can be looked at without any bias. What games do you like? What stores give you the best service? Is the game worth going to a store you may or may not like to purchase?

 

The fact that this has been discussed in here only shows how much of a damn good game TheIndieStone has on their plate to finish. Even with some disagreements I have with Steam, It's really taking the load off of non-seasoned or mildly-seasoned game developers / businessmen who are looking to make something, and I really appreciate that. 

[lemmy101]

In response to the fellow who won't install Steam even to install a game. The fact of the matter is this: We've spent a huge amount of money supporting non-steam multiplayer. We're currently having Steamworks integrated, and have actually gone out of our way specifically to retain both Steam and non-Steam network architectures. Not that this is done yet, but we've made a great deal of effort to retain out of Steam multiplayer that likely has cost 10s of thousands of dollars over the past year or so and will likely cost much more before the end.

 

However, uploading updates to numerous store fronts is a huge huge time sink for us, especially (sadly) with Desura and especially (sadly) in its latter days. It'd usually require about 5-6 hours of my time, and due to time zones all that time would have to be post midnight, because of all the versions and the size the game had gotten over the years.On top of it all after those 5-6 hours I'd likely still have to wait until the day after for the files to get approved. This makes it totally impractical to keep the game up to date for an infinitesimally small percentage of users, sadly no one does it even close to like Valve, where a .bat file can be double clicked and the version is live within a minute. 

 

Fact of the matter is, after all the effort we've put into retaining a DRM free version of the game, with non-Steam bound multiplayer architecture, that it can be used independently from Steam if you so wish, I'm not going to the huge effort and stress to maintain multiple versions of the game for the 0.0001% of our customers who won't install Steam even if only to update this one game, with no requirement to run Steam again perhaps for a month or more until the next update.

 

Steam downloads are the height of convenience, and we can update Steam within 30 seconds of deciding 'I'll update Steam', without the need of some third party's approval per patch. As many other games have (CK2/EU4/Civ5 etcetc) we'd have been well within our right part way thru dev to ditch RakNet and go totally with Steamworks, probably increasing its stability and security tenfold, then you'd have no choice but to keep Steam running or would lose the multiplayer completely (although this would probably improve MP too into the bargain for the 99% who use steam) we're still allowing people to maintain DRM freedom to play offline and online, but just asking a little bit of give on freeing us up from update nightmares that probably slow down releases for everyone.

 

I've got to spend my time where it is of benefit to everyone, and around release days (unless I totally forgoed/forgot about updating Desura) I'd spend more of my time on Dersura users by a factor of like 50 than I did on the 99.999% of Steam users. It drove me f**kin mad truth be told, but I didn't want to mention it and bring more gloom in Desura's direction, it seems sad to bring it up here but now I feel I can be more open about it. Last thing in the universe am I going to put that back on my shoulders with a different distribution service that no one uses, buys or plays, but to those few that do, they expect (reasonably, of course, from their perspective) equal attention and time. All it'll lead to is whatever that small service is getting under supported,even those tiny percentage of people won't even end up satisfied, so I'm resolute in this

 

In short I can't promise the files will be hosted anywhere else but Steam. It would depend on what systems are available and how they stack up with Steam's.  If it ends up just being Steam during Early Access, given the effort we've taken to retain game independence from Valve except for downloading / updating, I can't feel too guilty about that. I so so so so want to just use Steamworks for the multiplayer it'd make our lives 100x easier. We gave up the 100x easier for the sake of the non-Steam people, but this I likely won't budge on.

[Jab]

Understanding the decision for the ease of development, but I still don't quite understand the technical strain on the multiplayer side of things. I'd be concerned about the move to Steamworks, but I can't stop a ship that's already off the docks. 

I'm not too sure you will answer for the technical side though. If so, I do understand to some degree why. Protocol is hard. Networking affects every aspect of the physics simulation, as well as a huge influence to the code for the client. I do know this game was originally designed in code to focus on non-multiplayer. That may not be helping, although I'm very happy that you guys still battle on for my convenience in the multiplayer side of things.

[lemmy101]

Same reason Paradox did it, or Firaxis did it. With Steam multiplayer you get access to all their cheat protection (the ability to authenticate players on any server with an actual steam account, instead of relying on IP addresses, is earth shattering in its power to battle cheaters. A server op bans a cheater, they are gone from that server forever unless they buy the game again on a new account), voice chat support, NAT punchthrough (Steam is already connected to the client when they launch the multiplayer game. This makes things a million times easier getting all the clients and server talking in the first place, cutting out 99% of the headaches people have with PZ multiplayer), statistic tracking, master server tracking for server lists, peer to peer, etc. If we could just use Steamworks with commitment we could use all that stuff across the board. Instead we have to maintain a system where it has both non Steam and Steam equivelents. This either means non-Steam servers having different set of features that need to work alongside a completely different set of networking features on Steam servers, transparently with no impact on the game or gameplay, or worse it means we have to develop our own systems to match those on Steam instead of just being able to rely on the Steam features and save ourselves all that development work.

 

Make no mistake, that makes things MUCH more difficult for us, but while we really really need Valve's help with stuff like cheat protection, we're still making sure non Steam people can play the game multiplayer because we started selling the game before we were on Steam, and unless it ever turns out to be impossible for us to continue, we'll always make that effort. Then here in this sad thread about desura, there's the unspoken threat of a potential angry non Steam customer because they are unhappy about the prospect of costing a company they don't like (Valve) money by using their download servers for free to get what we have confirmed is a 100% DRM free game they can play completely online/offline without having Steam installed at all, out of some principle because said store doesn't label things 'DRM/NonDRM' and instead implying I personally have to spend an extra ton of my own spare time maintaining other options for them and a few others (and when I use percentages like 0.0001% I'm not being hyperbolic) who just find the idea of installing Steam, even momentarily, as distasteful.

 

Especially when we would of course consider any other platform based on its upload / patch simplicity/autonomy, and of course sometime post 1.0 when we have a more complete game. Just to see how unoptional and an obligation this apparently is in some people's eyes, makes my blood pressure rise already.

 

It just makes me sad is all, sorry to sound grumpy about it.

[EnigmaGrey]

I used to advocate heavily for a non-Steam option, but after seeing what Lemmy had to go through to keep up with Desura (or their own version thereof through direct download), it's very hard for me to support it as a viable option, outside of some principled belief in "an alternative."

If SteamWorks means, overall, the experience of users on SpiffoSpace (authentication through Steam!), then I have little ability shrug it off and ask for an alternative.

[Svarog]

I dislike steam, a lot, for various reasons but one thing I won't say about it is that it's not convenient. I play PZ off steam personally and only use it's client to update and that's one thing I like about it, how easy it actually is to update games, for both users and devs, doubly so for Early Access devs.

As someone who uses almost exclusively GOG specifically for it's DRM-Free policy I'd still recommend anyone to get the game on steam, one time purchase and you're all set to play for as long as you like with updates whenever they are available.

And if PZ gets steamworks then oh well, i won't stop playing it, at worst I'll have to keep their client on for MP which is a small sacrifice for possible benefits.

[nasKo]

I dislike steam, a lot, for various reasons but one thing I won't say about it is that it's not convenient. I play PZ off steam personally and only use it's client to update and that's one thing I like about it, how easy it actually is to update games, for both users and devs, doubly so for Early Access devs.

As someone who uses almost exclusively GOG specifically for it's DRM-Free policy I'd still recommend anyone to get the game on steam, one time purchase and you're all set to play for as long as you like with updates whenever they are available.

And if PZ gets steamworks then oh well, i won't stop playing it, at worst I'll have to keep their client on for MP which is a small sacrifice for possible benefits.

Wouldn't even have to buy it on Steam since the Humble Bundle store sells you a Steam key, too.

[Adrien2002]

If I can have the choice, I would LOVE to wait the game on GOG and "activate" my key there (I know... it won't be possible) instead of use Steam (I don't have Steam account and will never have one).

 

It means I will lose PZ and will have to buy it again on GOG ? Or am I forced to use Steam if I want to keep playing this game updated ?

 

I bought the fanboy pack 2 years ago and will lose the game :'(

[lemmy101]

If I can have the choice, I would LOVE to wait the game on GOG and "activate" my key there (I know... it won't be possible) instead of use Steam (I don't have Steam account and will never have one).

 

It means I will lose PZ and will have to buy it again on GOG ? Or am I forced to use Steam if I want to keep playing this game updated ?

 

I bought the fanboy pack 2 years ago and will lose the game :'(

 

If there's any possible way to give you the game on GOG we'll provide it once we're on GOG. However in the meantime no one has lost the game, the install progress has just gotten a bit longer for some people and involves two extra steps. One step they won't enjoy much: Installing steam, and one step they will enjoy a lot: Uninstalling steam.

 

as I said, we'll look for alternatives, of course. However there is a limit to the amount of extra time requirements these platforms can cause to development. And re: Fanboy edition we thank you and appreciate it, and in the future will be looking for additional stuff for our Fanboy supporters, but there is little we can do about the Desura situation. 

[Adrien2002]

I didn't buy the fanboy edition to get extra stuff, don't worry, I did because The Indie Stone seriously deserve it for what they do

 

Why not to do like Markus Persson did with Minecraft, to create your own launcher to get the game ?

[lemmy101]

I didn't buy the fanboy edition to get extra stuff, don't worry, I did because The Indie Stone seriously deserve it for what they do

 

Why not to do like Markus Persson did with Minecraft, to create your own launcher to get the game ?

 

We had something similar in the old days, and moved away from it onto Desura because that was much more of a time sink, was riskier, more work, and more stress than Desura was. As I say: Steam is literally 100x easier than anything else for us. It's as simple as that, and I wish it wasn't the case, but in terms of speed and ease of development, backend power, ease of uploading, ease of generating keys, ease of anything developer side, and 99% of the benefit and most of the customers, Steam makes it easy and gives us more time working on the game. I totally get some people's mistrust of it but any answer anyone provides other than 'just do it on Steam' is by definition 'do a lot more work for a lot less people'. This is just immutable truth. The fact of the matter is that whether you are on PC, Mac or Linux, any of the three real PLATFORMS we released on, anyone with a computer and an internet connection (just like with Desura / direct download) is capable of getting an up to date version of Project Zomboid, as per what is owed them, a DRM free copy at that. We'll try and provide more, but we cannot be held to account over people's own preferences of form of downloading when neither we nor Valve are asking for any additional money.

 

We're happy to do it to an extent, and are doing that as much as we can, I'm just saying we have literally (as of yesterday) at least 500,000 people out there with Zomboid, almost all of them on Steam, and development's not finished yet. We need to put our most time and attention where it will be of benefit to the largest portion of our customers. There's a famous Spock quote out there.

 

That said we'll do all we can to provide alternatives within reason. 

 

Writing a whole new launcher system, and hosting the files manually ourselves, and maintaining databases, administering large numbers of accounts, and handling financial transactions is certainly not within reason at this stage I'm afraid.