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Latest Mondoid on "tripping"

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Tripping adds a cheap shock value when we have so many better ways of adding to this, or improving existing features to achieve better results.

 

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I mentioned walking "large distances" backward and looking around "while" running. 

 

A few steps back here and there, and stopping to scan your surroundings shouldn't cause you to trip, I agree.

 

Personally, as is now, I just walk around zombies with no worry.  I run a bit, turn around, walk backwards and swing at the closest, then walk around, run a bit, turn around to walk backwards and swing at the closest... repeat until X number of zombies are far too easily terminated.   Put something in that messes up my equation, and I'm no longer capable to dropping an infinitly large hoard or must question my actions if I attempt to do so. 

This is a separate problem that tripping won't fix.

 

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Tripping adds a cheap shock value when we have so many better ways of adding to this, or improving existing features to achieve better results.

 

 

What are a few of these "Many better ways" you speak of? 

 

 

This is a separate problem that tripping won't fix.

 

 

 

... you know this because... ?

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You could make running through hordes more dangerous using true difficulty rather than Artificial Difficulty by making zombies lunge at you in hard to predict ways, as just one plausible example. There's many ways of making the game harder without relying on fake difficulty to punish the player.

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You could make running through hordes more dangerous using true difficulty rather than Artificial Difficulty by making zombies lunge at you in hard to predict ways, as just one plausible example. There's many ways of making the game harder without relying on fake difficulty to punish the player.

 

Nothing on that Artificial Difficulty page suggested anything that says tripping your character would be fake difficulty.  In fact, this sentence sorta defends such a feature...

"It is important to note that just because a gameplay feature is annoying and frustrating does not make it fake difficulty."

 

To me, it's not fake difficulty if there is a reason for it to happen and the player is aware of what those reasons for it's occurance are. 

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The outcome is not reasonably determined by the player's actions. Unlocking a door by solving a color puzzle is real difficulty. Unlocking it by pressing a button until you get the right number is not.

 

By very nature this is exactly what tripping as you described it would be.

 

Edit: And saying "lol just don't use features of the game such as moving backwards or looking around" is not a reasonable way to excuse it.

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The outcome is not reasonably determined by the player's actions. Unlocking a door by solving a color puzzle is real difficulty. Unlocking it by pressing a button until you get the right number is not.

 

By very nature this is exactly what tripping as you described it would be.

 

Edit: And saying "lol just don't use features of the game such as moving backwards or looking around" is not a reasonable way to excuse it.

 

 

The word "reasonably" in the above quote also nullifies Fake Difficulty in this situation, IMO.  If you choose to overly abuse the features that become outlined as possible tripping hazards, that's your choice.  


And I fully agree that eliminating the use of features is not a reasonalbe way to accept a tripping mechanic.  Just because certain situations can raise a possible problematic occurance using these features does not mean I intend to never make use of them.  Everything in excess has it's downside.

 

 

You can't even avoid it, that is like asking to never panic or encounter zombies.

You can't not look around or walk backwards either.

 

I'm beginning to think that the comments against a tripping mechanic are out of fear rather than justifiable arguments.  Nothing mentioned in past comments against tripping has held any real weight for me, especially since there aren't games which have this feature for anyone to really be able to argue against it.  Negative specualtion is all that's being touted. It's highly possible that this could be something big and helps create more entertaining intense moments throughout gameplay.  I'm sure it will need much rework before it'd come to such, but I am interested in seeing how tripping plays out and what it will become after feedback and features like proned combat get implemented.   


I'm staying positive and will embrace it until I have experienced it first hand and can come to better conclusions, good or bad.  I hope your fears end up being for naught, though I don't doubt that they may later be warranted... after we've had an opportunity to see it in play. 

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I'm beginning to think that the comments against a tripping mechanic are out of fear rather than justifiable arguments.  Nothing mentioned in past comments against tripping has held any real weight for me, especially since there aren't games which have this feature for anyone to really be able to argue against it.  Negative specualtion is all that's being touted. It's highly possible that this could be something big and helps create more entertaining intense moments throughout gameplay.  I'm sure it will need much rework before it'd come to such, but I am interested in seeing how tripping plays out and what it will become after feedback and features like proned combat get implemented.   


I'm staying positive and will embrace it until I have experienced it first hand and can come to better conclusions, good or bad.  I hope your fears end up being for naught, though I don't doubt that they may later be warranted... after we've had an opportunity to see it in play. 

 

Gee, A mechanic where you randomly fall over in a survival game, I wonder why it isn't in more games?

I won't speak for others, but I do actually worry about this mechanic because this has a break affect, we really have no redeeming quality for this, when much better solutions exist. And yes, not surpising it would get negative reactions considering it is against what Project Zomboids game design is, it's bad game design in general, and I don't need to see it to dislike it. You have no control over it, I don't care if it adds a cheap thrill to the game.

 

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Gee, A mechanic where you randomly fall over in a survival game, I wonder why it isn't in more games?

 

 

Because... "People don't know what they want until you show it to them."  ~Steve Jobs.

 

 

I won't speak for others, but I do actually worry about this mechanic because this has a break affect, we really have no redeeming quality for this, when much better solutions exist. And yes, not surpising it would get negative reactions considering it is against what Project Zomboids game design is, it's bad game design in general, and I don't need to see it to dislike it. You have no control over it, I don't care if it adds a cheap thrill to the game.

 

 

I'm still curious about these better solutions you keep mentioning.  Seriously, I'm down for hearing some interesting and immersive ideas.        

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I'm completely against stuff like tripping, passing out and other random stuff happing to a character when he\she is in perfect condition but I really don't understand this "Don't punish the player" thing.

In PZ the character can enter many states where doing things is ill advised, dumb and should be punished. Seriously, tell me that running with a broken leg is a good idea. Moving around a lot with stitches is a good idea. Running around the map when very tired is a good idea.

Without punishment there are also no rewards for doing things right. Why should I care if my charatcer has a broken leg, is overburdened and very tired if it has little effect on actual gameplay, if I can't fail because of things that should increase my chance of failure. Why should I pack a tent when going on a long scavenging trip if I know I won't pass out?

Having some forms of punishment for not properly taking care of the character would add a need to make plans, think about every action, stop from time to time and rest. It would make surviving much more rewarding in the long run, put an incentive on taking care of all those useless moodles we have.

And it's not artificial difficulty if the player through his own (in)actions ends up with an exhausted character in the middle of the forest, passes out and get's eaten by zombies, that's difficulty the player brought upon himself.

Not to mention the fact that currently the game doesn't really punish for anything at all, other than maybe opening a door to a bathroom.

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If they really wanted to be realistic, walking backwards would have a higher trip possibility than jumping over a fence.  Walking/running backwards while panicked from a group of zombies (kiting) would be a death sentence. Isn't that what happens in all horror movies?

I am pretty positive I made a point twice now to say

Horror Movies =/= Real Life

Project Zomboid is based to be as realistic as possible, it does not matter what happens on TV. A normal person has no issues running, doesn't forget how to walk properly, and doesn't fall over flat ground.

 

 

I added the part about the horror movie as a joke but is this case, the movie and reality are in sync.  If you are panicked and are running away and you keep looking back instead of watching where you are headed then you far more likely to trip.  That is just common sense.

 

I do agree that a normal person, in normal circumstances doesn't forget how to walk properly.  Walking/running away from zombies, while you are in a panicked state, and turning around to engage them with a weapon while walking backwards in a panicked state is not "normal". 

 

All said, I am not sure if  a "tripping" mechanic will be a good thing for PZ.  I have not had an opportunity to see how it works. I am skeptical. 

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I didn't want to comment earlier because I myself am not 100% sure how this is going to be implemented at this point, but I can assure you it's not going to be along the lines of you walking and falling over randomly... I mean, how on earth could you think that was our intention? ;)

 

I understand the concerns, and we do listen, but I just wanted to say: running at top speed, while panicked, on irregular/rough terrain, perhaps with not good shoes... there's a darned good reason why doing such things in such shoes is not a good idea. It's actually MORE realistic that there's a chance to trip. 

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I didn't want to comment earlier because I myself am not 100% sure how this is going to be implemented at this point, but I can assure you it's not going to be along the lines of you walking and falling over randomly... I mean, how on earth could you think that was our intention? ;)

 

I understand the concerns, and we do listen, but I just wanted to say: running at top speed, while panicked, on irregular/rough terrain, perhaps with not good shoes... there's a darned good reason why doing such things in such shoes is not a good idea: it's MORE realistic that there's a chance to trip. 

Cool but personally I find that tripping because of panic would be way to common. Panic already has it's downsides like not being able to hit the broad side of a barn with any gun, running while tired, overburdened or with high exertion when the characters perception and\or muscles are compromised would make much more sense. Panic is way too common and adding more penalties for having it would just result in Veteran and\or Brave trait being a must.

I don't know how would you guys implement rough\uneven terrain with the perspective we have in PZ, maybe running through tall grass could increase the chance of tripping (High grass is a damn magnet for tripping, try running through it).

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Thanks for commenting Mash.  I know where you're coming from- and I agree, it probably is more realistic to trip occasionally. My concerns are more whether it's fun and healthy for the game to have it that way.

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I think it's healthy to have more consequences for your decisions. If it was a purely random event where your actions had no bearing on what happened, then I agree that would be silly.

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Well, I'm probably the biggest arguer for more consequences from decisions in PZ. That being said, my problem with tripping is two-fold:

 

A) Even if it stems from something like being tired or running in grass or something like that, it still will retain enough randomness that it's still going to be frustrating and un-fun when it happens. By nature, any randomized consequence isn't a direct consequence. If one time you're running through grass and you get away fine and one time you run through grass and you fall and die (and the situation is exactly the same otherwise) the dead player isn't getting punished as a consequence of his actions, because his actions have no direct consequences, they have a randomized consequence. Randomized consequences prohibit any kind of skill growth by a player and simply act as broad spectrum deterrents, which in my humble opinion isn't a good thing.

 

B) The other option is, it isn't random and only happens in such a specific set of circumstances that it's predictable. At this point, rather than playing around consequences players will just learn the "rules" of the game and play around them instead. Maybe you only trip if it's raining, you're running flat out, and you're in tall grass. Then it just becomes something that punishes a new player once or twice and then they learn it and never do that again. At this point, once again you aren't providing any meaningful decisions for a player- you're just walling off a block of content and saying "don't do this."

 

I'd be all for something more specific that also offered a meaningful, direct consequence. As I mentioned before- jumping over a wall while running. You have a direct action (vaulting while running) with a direct consequence (in one specific location, the outcome is either trip or don't). It's not a ticking time bomb that could strike at any time- it's a direct consequence. Same thing for zombies tripping you. It would be a direct, exact consequence of running too close to one zombie.

 

As I've said throughout this thread, I'm certainly not going to prejudge it and say "it's awful" without seeing it in game. There may well be a good, fun way to implement that and I'm certainly no game designer. But I do think that this is a discussion worth having, because there's clearly stumbling blocks and pitfalls to avoid when dealing with the issue of tripping (see what I did there?).

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Well, I'm probably the biggest arguer for more consequences from decisions in PZ. That being said, my problem with tripping is two-fold:

 

A) Even if it stems from something like being tired or running in grass or something like that, it still will retain enough randomness that it's still going to be frustrating and un-fun when it happens. By nature, any randomized consequence isn't a direct consequence. If one time you're running through grass and you get away fine and one time you run through grass and you fall and die (and the situation is exactly the same otherwise) the dead player isn't getting punished as a consequence of his actions, because his actions have no direct consequences, they have a randomized consequence. Randomized consequences prohibit any kind of skill growth by a player and simply act as broad spectrum deterrents, which in my humble opinion isn't a good thing.

 

B) The other option is, it isn't random and only happens in such a specific set of circumstances that it's predictable. At this point, rather than playing around consequences players will just learn the "rules" of the game and play around them instead. Maybe you only trip if it's raining, you're running flat out, and you're in tall grass. Then it just becomes something that punishes a new player once or twice and then they learn it and never do that again. At this point, once again you aren't providing any meaningful decisions for a player- you're just walling off a block of content and saying "don't do this."

 

I'd be all for something more specific that also offered a meaningful, direct consequence. As I mentioned before- jumping over a wall while running. You have a direct action (vaulting while running) with a direct consequence (in one specific location, the outcome is either trip or don't). It's not a ticking time bomb that could strike at any time- it's a direct consequence. Same thing for zombies tripping you. It would be a direct, exact consequence of running too close to one zombie.

 

As I've said throughout this thread, I'm certainly not going to prejudge it and say "it's awful" without seeing it in game. There may well be a good, fun way to implement that and I'm certainly no game designer. But I do think that this is a discussion worth having, because there's clearly stumbling blocks and pitfalls to avoid when dealing with the issue of tripping (see what I did there?).

As I said before, maybe just making you fall to your knee and get back up after, I dunno, half a second? (Trust me, that's longer than it sounds like)

That way, maybe it could be slightly random, but under some circumstances, for example, sprinting at high exertion, or ridiculously high panic. Higher chance to happen with the clumsy trait, and a low nimble skill.

 

Fully falling down, if it is going to be implemented, should only happen when your character is a panicked, injured, exerted mess, otherwise it will be simply an annoyance if it happened at any other time.

Falling to your knee, however, lasts little time, fast enough that you don't feel annoyed or that the game is slowing you down and mocking you on purpose, but slow enough that the zombies could gain some ground on you, and add to the tension that you feel while running away from the horde.

 

What do you guys think of this?

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something we have not discussed yet was mentioned above by Mash, it's all a balancing act with everything that goes in the game.

 

now i cannot imagine anyone viewing tripping and falling down as a positive, it seems to me that is more of a negative thing that leaves you temporarily exposed to chasers.

 

so what would be the positive that comes from tripping to balance it out?

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something we have not discussed yet was mentioned above by Mash, it's all a balancing act with everything that goes in the game.

 

now i cannot imagine anyone viewing tripping and falling down as a positive, it seems to me that is more of a negative thing that leaves you temporarily exposed to chasers.

 

so what would be the positive that comes from tripping to balance it out?

It would make zombies happy, they keep moaning about how the game is not balanced well to suit their playstyle and how players are OP.

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something we have not discussed yet was mentioned above by Mash, it's all a balancing act with everything that goes in the game.

 

now i cannot imagine anyone viewing tripping and falling down as a positive, it seems to me that is more of a negative thing that leaves you temporarily exposed to chasers.

 

so what would be the positive that comes from tripping to balance it out?

It would make zombies happy, they keep moaning about how the game is not balanced well to suit their playstyle and how players are OP.

 

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If tripping is purely tied to panic, then I don't see any reason to pick anything but veteran, making the trait re-work mostly wasted. It doesn't matter if its not super common, what matters is theres gonna be that one time when you tripped, while panic'd, and died as a result with all control out of your hands. Thats enough to ruin the gameplay experience for most people.

 

If you tie it to more controllable situations, like requiring tired and/or exhausted with panic, or by taking the clumsy trait, then that is a much better situation. The player was at fault for creating a bad situation. But if your leave it up to RNG with panic (something that CANNOT be prevented or planned around, and no, beta blockers is not a real solution), then that is simply bad design IMO.

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