Latest Mondoid on "tripping"
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So you guys are thinking this game isn't hardcore enough, right? I think adding tripping and s**t does enhance the immersion of this game but things like these should be hardcore selectable options in settings. [Just like reloading]

 

If you guys think panic is too underpowered and wish to spice it up, how about a small chance of dropping the shells/mag by accident when reloading with heavy panic moodles on?

 

For melee weapons... things like swinging your weapons but fail to hit the target could throw you off balance. Oh and while a fireaxe is very powerful as a melee weapon, you do have to put it out after hacking into the skull/body of a zombie.

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Tripping will add a interesting new element and make panic more of a thing than it currently is. As long as the tripping mechanics are balanced and don't occur too randomly. I'm guessing that it will have to be based on random probabilities coded into the game that change with conditions like weather, terrain type your running on, moodles etc. With this in mind I'd say that whilst the weather's fine and your suvivor is running along happily the chance of tripping should be irrelevantly small. As conditions worsen this goes up until you find yourself slipping in the rain or falling down in a panicked, overburdened, exhausted state. Add the difficulties of the ever encroaching wilderness (tripping over bushes and in long grass) and use the nimbleness skill to improve the suvivors chances of not tripping; should be an interesting addition. Looking forward to it!

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something we have not discussed yet was mentioned above by Mash, it's all a balancing act with everything that goes in the game.

 

now i cannot imagine anyone viewing tripping and falling down as a positive, it seems to me that is more of a negative thing that leaves you temporarily exposed to chasers.

 

so what would be the positive that comes from tripping to balance it out?

I don't think that's what she meant by "balancing act", it's more about finding what factors do influence tripping or not, and in what proportions (panic / fatigue / exertion / nimble level / movement / visibility / terrain / character's load ect...), so the conditions to trip are not too frequently met and it doesn't become a repetitive & tedious mechanics.

The only positive thing that comes from tripping is more fun and more "get killed" situations for the players, and an actual reason to have a nimble skill to level up. Like injuries, there's no "positive side" for having an injured character, but it still is a good thing to have as a gameplay element.

edit :

 

 

B) The other option is, it isn't random and only happens in such a specific set of circumstances that it's predictable. At this point, rather than playing around consequences players will just learn the "rules" of the game and play around them instead. Maybe you only trip if it's raining, you're running flat out, and you're in tall grass. Then it just becomes something that punishes a new player once or twice and then they learn it and never do that again. At this point, once again you aren't providing any meaningful decisions for a player- you're just walling off a block of content and saying "don't do this."

 

I'd be all for something more specific that also offered a meaningful, direct consequence. As I mentioned before- jumping over a wall while running. You have a direct action (vaulting while running) with a direct consequence (in one specific location, the outcome is either trip or don't). It's not a ticking time bomb that could strike at any time- it's a direct consequence. Same thing for zombies tripping you. It would be a direct, exact consequence of running too close to one zombie.

Everything has its own part of randomness and can get you killed (even irl ;o), from the amount of zombies spawning in a bathroom, the items you find in a container, or a meta-sound putting you in a tricky situations etc... randomness is just a part of any rogue-like inspired games and you can't control everything, BUT you can influence the outcome and how you deal with what's happening despite your efforts.

Which means it is random AND circumstantial, the players do have a choice to make in emergency situation, just like a lot of other things in PZ : using guns, jumping off a window and getting injured, getting sick in the rain, fighting zombies etc... those are all things with dangerous consequences that can get you killed and the players always have the choice not to do it, or play in a way that won't put him in those type of situations. It's all about choices and death.

And it would be exactly the same with tripping : you walk into a group of 20 zombies behind a wall, you're tired, panicky and you're coming back from a loot run (so you're pretty loaded) ; do you stand your ground and backup carefully ? or do you freak out and get away asap (and risk tripping) ? or do you get a molotov and burn them all ? Any of those can have dramatic consequences, which is less true without "tripping" as the cowardly run has always proven to be the most effective choice when it comes to survival, and this might make it a bit more dangerous.

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Everything has its own part of randomness and can get you killed (even irl ;o), from the amount of zombies spawning in a bathroom, the items you find in a container, or a meta-sound putting you in a tricky situations etc... randomness is just a part of any rogue-like inspired games and you can't control everything, BUT you can influence the outcome and how you deal with what's happening despite your efforts.

The randomness you are describing doesn't apply to the player which is why it is irrelevant. Zombie spawning randomly, random loot spawn etc. Don't take control from the player, you as a character can still react to the situation however you want.

Tripping is randomness that happens to you, takes control from you, and you have no choice about it.

 

 

So you guys are thinking this game isn't hardcore enough, right? I think adding tripping and s**t does enhance the immersion of this game but things like these should be hardcore selectable options in settings. [Just like reloading]

 

If you guys think panic is too underpowered and wish to spice it up, how about a small chance of dropping the shells/mag by accident when reloading with heavy panic moodles on?

 

For melee weapons... things like swinging your weapons but fail to hit the target could throw you off balance. Oh and while a fireaxe is very powerful as a melee weapon, you do have to put it out after hacking into the skull/body of a zombie.

1. Not hardcore. Challenging. And if you frequently fall on your ass when you are running then sure, it does enhance immersion. But I want to point out hardcore is for people that want to push the difficult to the limits while making the game challenging or hard isn't. Right now Zombies tend to not be a threat, and most people end games by going on a rampage to kill themselves or starting a new game. Tripping doesn't fix this, it just covers it, and opens more wounds with it.

2. No one said underpowered, but I can see how it might be implied, the panic moodle is just dumb in its current state, it needs more done to it. As I said, Reduced healing, louder character, takes a little longer to eat, move items etc.  This is fitting to someone with an adrenaline rush, or on edge from being chased, that both adds gameplay and immersion, without taking control away from your character.

3. I don't think anyone swings a bat in a way that send them down if they somehow miss, I do think slower swing speed should be a thing for people not adept at melee. Since it would be natural for someone who doesn't use a bat or anything similar to not be as good at swinging things fast.

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Everything has its own part of randomness and can get you killed (even irl ;o), from the amount of zombies spawning in a bathroom, the items you find in a container, or a meta-sound putting you in a tricky situations etc... randomness is just a part of any rogue-like inspired games and you can't control everything, BUT you can influence the outcome and how you deal with what's happening despite your efforts.

The randomness you are describing doesn't apply to the player which is why it is irrelevant. Zombie spawning randomly, random loot spawn etc. Don't take control from the player, you as a character can still react to the situation however you want.

Tripping is randomness that happens to you, takes control from you, and you have no choice about it.

 

 

So you guys are thinking this game isn't hardcore enough, right? I think adding tripping and s**t does enhance the immersion of this game but things like these should be hardcore selectable options in settings. [Just like reloading]

 

If you guys think panic is too underpowered and wish to spice it up, how about a small chance of dropping the shells/mag by accident when reloading with heavy panic moodles on?

 

For melee weapons... things like swinging your weapons but fail to hit the target could throw you off balance. Oh and while a fireaxe is very powerful as a melee weapon, you do have to put it out after hacking into the skull/body of a zombie.

1. Not hardcore. Challenging. And if you frequently fall on your ass when you are running then sure, it does enhance immersion. But I want to point out hardcore is for people that want to push the difficult to the limits while making the game challenging or hard isn't. Right now Zombies tend to not be a threat, and most people end games by going on a rampage to kill themselves or starting a new game. Tripping doesn't fix this, it just covers it, and opens more wounds with it.

2. No one said underpowered, but I can see how it might be implied, the panic moodle is just dumb in its current state, it needs more done to it. As I said, Reduced healing, louder character, takes a little longer to eat, move items etc.  This is fitting to someone with an adrenaline rush, or on edge from being chased, that both adds gameplay and immersion, without taking control away from your character.

3. I don't think anyone swings a bat in a way that send them down if they somehow miss, I do think slower swing speed should be a thing for people not adept at melee. Since it would be natural for someone who doesn't use a bat or anything similar to not be as good at swinging things fast.

 

"My character is louder and I have no control over it! Devs please remove this it's terrible game design!".  In the end, my reaction to tripping will depend on how it's implemented.  If you're sprinting through the forest at night in the rain with no shoes while panicked, you can guarantee you're going to trip and stumble.  If they're going to make it obnoxious obviously it is bad game design.  "Removing control" is just not necessarily how it has to work, so stop creating this strawman, please.  It can still give you the option of avoiding precarious situations like the one I just described that would make tripping a threat.

 

Are there other, perhaps more pressing, things that should be done to improve the difficulty?  Absolutely - and I'm sure they're working on those as well.  This is just one more thing that we can be prepared for in our struggle.  To reiterate, it doesn't have to be implemented in such a "no counterplay RNG" fashion, so arguing against that implementation is pointless.

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Everything has its own part of randomness and can get you killed (even irl ;o), from the amount of zombies spawning in a bathroom, the items you find in a container, or a meta-sound putting you in a tricky situations etc... randomness is just a part of any rogue-like inspired games and you can't control everything, BUT you can influence the outcome and how you deal with what's happening despite your efforts.

The randomness you are describing doesn't apply to the player which is why it is irrelevant. Zombie spawning randomly, random loot spawn etc. Don't take control from the player, you as a character can still react to the situation however you want.

Tripping is randomness that happens to you, takes control from you, and you have no choice about it.

 

There's a pretty big gap inbetween a brief animation directly triggered by the player's choices/reactions, and "randomly taking the control away from the player".

The random things I mentionned doesn't "happen" to the player but still directly influences the outcome of any given situation, randomness is everywhere, it doesn't matter what's the subject of the random event/thing (player or environment) ; what matters are causes & consequences (why/how tripping may happen ? and how harsh is the punishment ?).

Being randomly "punished" for no reason would be artificial difficulty, being punished because you're doing something reckless and dangerous without the required skills/physical aptitudes, or in bad physical/mental condition, is not.

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"My character is louder and I have no control over it! Devs please remove this it's terrible game design!".  In the end, my reaction to tripping will depend on how it's implemented.  If you're sprinting through the forest at night in the rain with no shoes while panicked, you can guarantee you're going to trip and stumble.  If they're going to make it obnoxious obviously it is bad game design.  "Removing control" is just not necessarily how it has to work, so stop creating this strawman, please.  It can still give you the option of avoiding precarious situations like the one I just described that would make tripping a threat.

 

Are there other, perhaps more pressing, things that should be done to improve the difficulty?  Absolutely - and I'm sure they're working on those as well.  This is just one more thing that we can be prepared for in our struggle.  To reiterate, it doesn't have to be implemented in such a "no counterplay RNG" fashion, so arguing against that implementation is pointless.

 

Good golly oh mighty. I should make a tally of people who are taking things out of context on this thread.

Anything said here, on the speculation on how it will be implemented is based on the quote from the blog. We aren't just pulling information out of nothing and running with it anything we do have has come from quotes from mash and the blog. I have no doubts that they won't ensure this isn't a trainwreck when released, but that isn't why I have had a problem with it. Tripping is being added to force a cheap way of difficulty and tension that we have many other better solutions for, its a randomized element (Even with the sentence below) that isn't fun in a game like this, and tripping will just cause problems and only hide the ones it was meant to solve. It doesn't charge through and fix the problem it just puts a blanket over it and misdirects you. "See here! Zombies ARE a problem! Make sure you don't fall!"

As it has been mentioned by both the quote and Mash commentary, Tripping will be done in a way where you would be expected too in real life for people. The problem results in whether this type of realism will translate to a video game well, hence we have all the game design talk. Hence why 90% of what is suggested is generally "Is it realistic?"   "Is this something that will work in the game?"   It's realistic to shower regularly and go to the bathroom, so either your character has a serious case of constipation or its realism that doesn't work in this game. Just. Like. Tripping.

Rathlord (God damn his beautiful ideas) made the suggestion to make tripping happen if you run and vault over a fence, giving the character the choice to risk falling or take another path. (I might have fudged what he implied so re-read what he said)

The kicker here is that most think it won't work and less people think we should wait and see and even less people think it is a good idea, everything said is just speculation on what is to come providing feedback in a place where expected. And while it will all ultimately boil down to us just having to try it out, it is easily a feature I could see being removed pretty quickly if it goes south. (Hah Cuz Kentucky)

 

There's a pretty big gap inbetween a brief animation directly triggered by the player's choices/reactions, and "randomly taking the control away from the player".

The random things I mentionned doesn't "happen" to the player but still directly influences the outcome of any given situation, randomness is everywhere, it doesn't matter what's the subject of the random event/thing (player or environment) ; what matters are causes & consequences (why/how tripping may happen ? and how harsh is the punishment ?).

Being randomly "punished" for no reason would be artificial difficulty, being punished because you're doing something reckless and dangerous without the required skills/physical aptitudes, or in bad physical/mental condition, is not.

 

It isn't triggered by choice and reaction. The shoe thing and rough forest terrain mentioned by mash perhaps, but turning corners? Or a chance to fall on the pavement when running? (Read the blog quote for this information yo) No that isn't trigger by a player choice or reaction, its you either play the game the way intended and fall over like the monkey you are (Monkeys trip?) or don't play at all. If this "feature" were to be avoided it would mean never get the panic moodle. So, never ever see zombies basically. Good luck with that.

There's a pretty big gap inbetween a brief animation directly triggered by the player's choices/reactions, and "randomly taking the control away from the player".

That might be true if it was anything like you described. But it isn't a brief animation triggered by the players choice or reaction. It is. Falling over, and getting back up, just for turning a corner or running while in panic.

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