Easily Digestible List of Trait Balance Issues

[Komaras]

problem or not? Sometimes i meet a different zombie than usual in PZ game, 

pushing for a long time but it does not dies, he scratched me many times, and it is difficult to kill, 

where is the problem: Ping? (always-130 in Spiffo PVP), bug?, need restart game or server?, 

or in this game is some Random serious Zeds?

[LewisDTC]

I don't know if a recent patch has changed anything or of if its just in my head, but here are some observations I've made on my most recent character:

Lucky: Much weaker than I've ever noticed before. I'm a few weeks in, looted the WP tool shop, Factory and Storage yard and all I've found is a single axe - no Sledgehammer. I've less canned food and chocolate than before too. Feels in general like I'm playing without the perk.

Inconspicuous / stealth perks in general: Huh. Maybe I was just unlucky before but I never had any joy with stealth. This time though, I'm playing a thief with inconspicuous and graceful and its actually pretty noticable. I might actually take these again in the future.

Weak / Obese / Strong / Fit: I think the points are fairly balanced for these actually. Perhaps the exp needed to level up strength and fitness could be reduced, but only by a little. At the moment, whatever you pick is never going to change by more than a level or two, and that's if you get a really good run. Maybe if they levelled up faster but could also degrade to compensate? That would also male the XP modifier from the perks more relevent.

Hemophobic: Not a massive effect, but its not worth a massive amount of points so I can't see a problem with it. I pick it if in trying to squeeze out a few extra points for a specific perk and can't quite afford it.

Claustrophobic / Agoraphobic : Personally I never take either of these. If I was to suggest how I would rather see them implemented it would be to give players stage one (minor) panic in relevent areas (as opposed to maximum) and then attach a multiplier to any other sources of panic received - so if a claustrophobic character has a zombie lunge and them when indoors, THAT is what will send them over the edge. I'm aware that might not to super realistic, but it seems like it might be less crippling from a gameplay point of view.

[Millitron]

Can somebody explain to me how hypochondriac can kill you?

 

I was under the impression that the symptoms it creates are "fake".  That they'll go away within a few days.

[Geras]

Can somebody explain to me how hypochondriac can kill you?

 

I was under the impression that the symptoms it creates are "fake".  That they'll go away within a few days.

 

The symptoms are fake as far as turning yourself into zombie is concerned. The sickness is real, though, and will lower your hit points (so it can kill you). It goes away during 1 sleep session usually. Sleeping prevents all damage it would cause.

[Zombadger]

As I am rapidy approaching my 700th hour of gameplay, I think I am ready to give opinions on things.

First, congratulations. I have not been this engrossed in a game since Chrono Trigger and FF3 came out on the SNES.

Second, EnigmaGrey, you do a very good job. You don't get enough credit on the forums. It makes your work a very salty chore.

Thank you Administrators and Indie Stone Devs.

 

 

Deaf - Great perk! I only observed the true power of this while watching a friend play, wherein I suggested taking it. Not hearing anything was completely disorenting to them. Death happened again and again with great rapidity from zambos behind doors, lurking in bushes, giving surprize hugs from behind while looking in the backpack for a soda etc etc. However, I play all games in 'Deaf FM' mode where I turn off the games sound and play my music. I thought that Deaf was kind of an interesting option since that is how I play all games. It did not affect me one iota in my gameplay, making it a no-brain choice for a quick, tasty 12 points, but is appropriately costly for most other people as it seems to be a certain death sentance unless you, as a player, possess intense focus and lengthy attention span.

Obese - * Great perk! Watch as your slow, easily edible tub of tasty crisco runs those thunder thighs off! Admire thier steely reserve as the pounds melt away! Be proud of thier determination with each upwards click of the Fitness bars!

Weak - See Feeble. *

Illiterate - Great perk! It allows you to keep track of what you have done in character advancement using numbers that are not skewed with book bonuses. Imagine doing fishing and carpentry instead of just reading about it. Illiterate makes for a more active, interactive playthrough with less downtime.

Feeble - Great perk! For roleplaying old ladies and unfortunate cancer suvivors. Could be a bit more expensive, as it makes combat a neigh impossibility until you swell those gains a little. *

High Thirst - Something to drink has never really been a matter of difficulty to obtain for me, even in 'I live in Mulblub, durnit.' runs. With barrels and bags, anything is possible. Still I think my propensity to be a sweaty, thirsty survivor has more to do with me picking this Perk than does this concept of 'free points'. Well balanced, balanced with a well.

Overweight - See Obese. *

Restless Sleeper - I dislike this Perk. Because I like to sleep. But if you are a cat napper, this is very appropriate. In that respect it balances well with the other sleep related perks. Wakeful makes those short naps effective. Sleepyhead perk combos this into a 'sleep away your life' style of gameplay where you only really need to wake up long enough to water the crops and sweep the zambos off the porches before it's time to settle down for another well earned eight hours.

Slow Healer - Great perk! Assuming everything else is fine and dandy in ones life, Slow Healer lets you spend more time figuring out how to bandage correctly and use appropriate measure of disinfectant instead of simply dousing the area down. And in the end, higher First Aid will keep you in better shape faster. Keep a broken window on hand for cutting yourself, because Broken Leg Simulator doesn't require the frequant health checks that a nice, deep laceration will do for.

Slow Learner - Great Perk! Learning slowly means you end up struggling a lot longer before becoming skilled at anything, extending the amount of time it takes before you have an impenatrable fortress and infinate supplies. The begining of the game is no doubt the most exciting part, and this perk extends the 'begining' by that much longer.

Thin-skinned - I have mixed feeling about this one. On the one hand, it's an area that needs to be represented. On the other hand, my longest living character with Thick Skin and Defense Blunt/Blade both at 7 and Lucky died in the spring of her third year of the very first injury she had ever taken, ever. All the defensive Perks in the world wont save you from cruel fate, so taking Thin Skinned is pure free points when your game play involves never getting hit ever.

Asthmatic - This is like having Obese or Overweight in the games begining, but you can never work it off. Needs to be more expensive. I occasionally use this for points when I am not making a fatty.

Agoraphobic - See Adreniline Junkie. *

Claustrophobic - See Adreniline Junkie. *

Conspicious - * Needs to be more expensive. My word, hard to get anything done when you proc every zombie in a circle  around you two blocks out.

Disorganized - I think this perk is balanced for it's cost, but I never wind up picking it other than for experimental build reasons. A savy carpenter has three shelves on every wall in the storage shed. No need to organize, just offload.

Hearty Appetite - I have never had a problem staying fed, even with this Perk. However, I stopped taking it after the fifth of sixth playthrough I as enjoy seeing food stockpiles swell. Would need to be another point or two more expensive for me to be tempted into taking it in these modern days.

Pacifist - I... I don't understand. All these people got eaten or shot in the first month of The End, didn't they? I have never picked this Perk and would look down on anyone who did.

Prone to Illness - Great Perk! Why wait for the inevitable? Die of a shallow scratch by the time it takes you to think of a new character and move on is what I say.

Sleepy Head - See Restless Sleeper. *

Unlucky - Great Perk! For a cost of only -4 points, Unlucky incentivises you to explore the WHOLE MAP in search of the One Saw to rule them all. This is great for playthroughs as often you can find spade, trowel, axe, saw, sledge and a dozen boxes of nails under a single roof without this handy perk, severely reducing the enjoyable difficulty/tension of a new playthrough.

Hemophobic - Panic is scary. I understand why people think that this Perk is free points, but. I think that those people are dissasociated from the experiance. Have you ever had to stich up a ragged wound that was litterally spilling your life out of you? It's not easy. It's terrifying. You have to hurt yourself more with a freaking NEEDLE to fix it. If only there was a way to make the player 'feel' that terror. Noone would pick this Perk even if it was worth -15. At -3 for no actual impact on a savy player, however, it's free points.

Weak Stomach - Would need to be more expensive to be balanced if the problem of abundant food supply choices were fixed. Easy -3 points otherwise.

All Thumbs - Great Perk for a home-body, terrible for a raider.  Could easily be a -3 and still be balanced.

Clumsy - See Conspicuous. *

Cowardly - See Adrenaline Junkie. *

Hard of Hearding - Discount Deaf. Have never used due to a preference for Deaf.

Hypochondriac - Needs to be more expensive for the toll it takes on every concievable reserve of physical and mental assets.

Short Sighted - Have used on occasion and don't see much of a difference. What am I doing wrong? What is the tangible effect of this?

Slow Reader - Great Perk! This one lets me cook dinner while I am reading in game. I can run down to the store for sandwitch fixings, come back, and I'll just be finishing the book. Great for the lazy player who AFK's frequantly.

Cat's Eyes -  This shouldn't be red! Worthless perk as darkness doesn't help you sneak. If anything, Zambos are MORE aware at night. People who are out when it's close to midnight deserve what they get. IMHO it is not worth the few points it's worth. Likely added to fill out the Perks list. Who knows.
 

I do not tend to use a lot of these. Making the game easier is not what I am about. However.

Dextrous - Amazing. Grab that dogfood with laser speed and precision. Could be a +3 and I would still entertain notions of getting it.

Fast Reader - Needs to be more expensive. Drilling through 2 books in a day with 100% comprehension is a task of herculean adroitness.

Iron Gut - I have never eaten rotten food in the game on purpose. One I ate a pan of raw steak, chicken, mutton and porkchop stirfry by mistake. She died in spite of my best efforts. This affordable Perk might have saved me. :/

Angler - Great Perk! You can avoid the whole game by being a good enough fisher.

Baseball Player - +4 cost for a +1 Skill point, when I could spend +2 more and get brawler. Needs work and a Blade version counterpart.

Brave - For what it does, I think +4 cost is balanced for this. I would even get it at +5 in spite of how abuntant Beta Blockers are.

First Aider - Useful on Multiplayer where a lot of this happens, but not useful enough for the cost. Just get Boyscout and bundle that FA with a more useful skill.

Gardener - Important for making sure your first crop can be sprayed for pests and such. I have heard that other people do not seem to have this problem, but I cannot make 'Cures' for my plant until I have at least one point in Farming.

Graceful - Could-be-a-5-useful.

Inconspicious - Could-be-a-5-useful.

Gymnast - Is-a-5-useful. Balanced, yo.

Brawler - Great Perk! A true survivalist fights well weather stabbing, slashing, chopping or crushing. If weapons wernt so easy to find, this would be a must have. But since people pick either blunt or blade and stick with it, maybe make this one a odd number? There needs to be more odds and this one is kinda lame to those cis-weapon battlers.

Eagle Eyed - Have used a couple times, not impressed. Normal vision works just fine and is free.

Fast Healer - It's not kidding. You heal very fast.  Maybe jack this one up into another odd? This and Fast Learner would look great at +7. They are totally worth it.

Fit - I have no opinion. Seems pretty balanced to me.

Former Scout - Pairs well with Hiker, but I hardly ever use it because Hiker is enough and in SP you just don't get hurt enough for First Aid to matter. One Chomp, One Scratch and all your knowledge of the differences between Cetyl Alcohol and Ethyl Alcohol means nothing.

Hiker - Best Perk! Live off the land! Would need to be bumped up to a +8 cost because of how usefull BOTH of the abilities are. Maybe toss in a +1 to Fishing and be like 'Look, Hiking is as expensive as Handy but makes you a true outdoor enthousiast!'.

Keen Hearing - Dunno.   I am Deaf.

Adrenaline Junkie - WOOO! BETA BLOCKERS WEARING OFF, EAT MY DUST ZAMBOS.

Handy - I often buy this for the extra blip in Carpentry, but I don't need the maintanance. It goes up fast enough on it's own. I hope this gets split into a cheap Carpentry +1 and a less expensive +1 for the maint's. Something like a +6 cost like Hiker.

Hunter - Needs animals. Have not used/wont use until I get cute, fluffy things to murder at range and then eat.

Athletic - Balanced. Dunno why anyone would choose this over Overweight though. Too bad you cannot be a big, chunky fitfat guy.

[DreadLordNaf]

Just some thoughts on a few traits after playing the game for awhile now since I haven't tried them all.

 

Hemophobic - I always take in every game, basically free points in SP and in MP since first aid isn't very useful when any serious zombie hit is insta infection. Points given should be less or mechanic altered. Then again if combat is altered to result in more serious non-zombification hits where you need to first aid more often, then I think the negatives of this would show through more often.

 

Weak Stomach - I also take this in every game, again basically free points.  Should either reduce points given or alter mechanic. Honestly most people in RL cant tell when food is at the early stages of going bad.  Almost all food in PZ, especially canned food, should have a small chance of giving you slight food poisoning, maybe a percent or two. Then a normal char would be down for awhile but will recover.  This perk though could make that debilitating and really make you think twice on using it.

Slow Reader- Another free points.  I don't see a way of fixing this though points unless you change the mechanic.  So this negative should be removed, or changed to "poor reading comprehension."  Then that skill could instead make it so skill books both take longer to read and give less of an XP boost which would make it a tough decision to take or not.

 

Unlucky - The whole unlucky/lucky mechanic seems broken.  Would suggest to remove.   In MP games, I'm not sure if it was just my random bad/good luck, but seems in some case whole areas and loot finds were  "unluckified" or "luckified" depending if a char with this trait visited it first.

Cat's Eyes - Seems fine for the points, a small boost, but nothing worth more than two points.  I take it occasionally.

Fast Reader - See above with slow reading.  It could still stay in since the bonus isnt that good.  Or mechanic changed to "good reading comprehension" to make the actual skill book bonuses slightly better.

Iron Gut -  See above with weak stomach.  Though I havent eaten tons of rotten food with this yet.  If it makes it so you can eat rotten food with little negatives then this seems fine, or even slightly overpowered now.

 

Outdoorsman - Seems really over powered for only 2 points.  Should be 4 or even 6. Or put it back locked to one profession.

First Aider - Useless because of how useless first aid skill is now. I hope they change combat mechanics to make first aid more useful overall.

Graceful - Graceful and Inconspicuous I put in the same boat. I usually take them because their bonuses are significant and noticeable but its unclear exactly what they do.  Do they give a hidden bonus on top of lightfooted/sneak ?  Meaning with these you can actually get a higher stealthiness than with just those skills alone and higher than if you maxed those skills? If so these are really powerful and should maybe have their cost increased a bit to 5 or 6.  Or change these to just give a normal bonus to lightfooted/sneak, etc.

Inconspicious - Same with Graceful though this skill isnt clear.  Does it make you less noticeable in general, even when running, or only really affect sneak?

Gymnast - seems fine though the 5 cost usually leaves me with points left over.  Maybe make a couple 1 skill point bonus/negative ones if there will be more that cost an odd number?

Eagle Eyed - Doesn't seem worth 6 points, only increases arc a bit and fade slightly.  Cost should be reduced.  If this had some built-in Cat's eye ability then it might be more worth it.

Fast Healer - Seems pointless since most my injuries are either nothing or zombification.  Hard to know what this should cost unless they alter combat/injury mechanics.

Fit - Good and worth the points.

Former Scout -  Seems fine and worth it.

Keen Hearing - I dont quite understand how this works.  I got this thinking it would help me in detect zombies behind me more in dark buildings, but i dont see a difference.  So can't say on this.

 

Lucky - As others have pointed out this seems overpowered and messes things up in MP games.  Should be removed or kept but with the effect of giving a small 5 or 10% chance to all rolls. 

 

Thick Skinned - I dont really understand how this works.  Both games I played as this I got injured quite easily and in one got bit and infected very quickly.  If your injuries showed for example a "bite mark" or "scratch mark" then it would be easier to see that you got bit but this helped it.  Right now I can't tell if this really works.

I haven't really tried the others.

 

Also I should note the "Burglar" profession seems to have a hidden "lucky" trait.  The time I played as this char my loot finds were amazing.  Multiple axes and saws pretty quickly etc.  Not sure if that was intended.  

[Moose65]

Would just like to say that the "Herbalist" trait should probably have its cost reduced, down to about 4. At 6 it doesn't seem worth taking since you can potentially loot the magazine. Its a great trait, but at the current cost I'm more tempted to go on looting runs for the magazine instead.

 

If it was at 4, it would be a little bit tougher of a choice then, for the convenience of starting with it VS hunting for the magazine.

[Jether]

We need more -1 and +1 traits i hate having that 1 extra point. Also in pvp eagle eye has got me hooked. It essentialy lets you see half the map and if you turn around you see the other half but the time to fade is only increased by about 1 second. 

[ulfstein]

Interesting that no one has said much about this recently. Thank you for putting the points in numerical order. in regards to obese and overweight though. Based on the  wiki article it seems that overweight trait is worse than obese as the obese seems to directly related to fitness while overweight has a static double fatigue which means it doesnt go away. it this actually the case?

[PlasticandRage]

This has been said already, but I'll throw my hat into the ring that there should either be some +1/-1 traits added, or that they should all be either odd or even. Honestly I think some +1/-1 traits would be a more enjoyable way to address the issue though. I generally use the same setup every time I play, and it always leaves me with a +1 with nothing to do with. If I had a pool of marginal +1/-1 traits to choose from there Id definitely either just be adding a +1 trait, or taking a marginal -1 trait in order to go for something else thats positive. Thus far all I ever end up with now is stout, hemophobic, and slow reader.

 

I think at the moment the detriments of the negative traits far outweigh the benefits of the positive ones for the most part too. At least for the point values of each. There isn't much in the positive pool that I'm willing to take such a negative hit for. If there were either some positive traits with lesser point hits or some better positive traits, I'd probably be more willing to take the trade-off for beneficial traits. At the moment there isn't much there that I see that I can't live without or even really even care about.

 

Maybe the addition of some traits that allow you to level in specific skills more quickly would be good, as opposed to just traits that start you with +1's in those skills. I'd probably take a negative hit for a skill that allowed me the increased carpentry experience the way the carpenter profession does. That way you could choose a profession and then pick up a trait or two that allows you to say, be trained in a couple of other things as well. In fact I'd definitely take 1 or 2 higher impact negative traits for something like that, and it'd probably make each game that much more interesting.

[Zomboid]

[b][color=#ff0000]Illiterate[/color][/b] - this should be at least as many points as deaf because finding the herbalist book is already worth 6 points...

 

Also somehow let us use unused points some other way because sometimes we get stuck with a leftover point, perhaps 3 traits that will add or subtract 1 point so we can never get stuck with an odd number.

[Bigun]

First time playing, I did all thumbs, and I spend so much time just watching bars fill up.

[Quigleyer]

With OVERWEIGHT and OBESE now that the nutrition system is in they basically give you a good 2-4 weeks of not needing to eat at all at the beginning of the game.  

 

If you take OBESE (-10) and STRONG (+10) you'll still have more carrying capacity starving than you normally would on a full stomach without STRONG, so you're only taking a penalty to speed and injury chance at that point- BUT not needing to eat.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Quigleyer

[Wolfihunter_prey]

I believe, this could easily be balanced by adding some sort of negative effect once a character is losing weight for a larger period of time. Just imagine you lose 10-20 kg in a couple of weeks, your body would be completely depressed, you would have serious problem moving or doing things (even with the excess calories still in your character).

[Slice985]

AFter spending some time reading books on a MP server. Even without the slow reader trait.. this just ask to go AFK and screw around and hope you don't die in the meantime. That's not really a good way to have a "game" trait.And in SP, you can just fast forward. 

 

Instead. How about "Learns better by doing" - So instead of taking longer to read, it takes longer to skill, so books will give  only 75% of the bonus normal, so x2 instead of x3 -x12 at level 8 instead of x16. You will still take extra time, but that time will be spent playing instead of afking. 

 

Hemophobic - I like the can't bandage others part for MP, but I think this should also cap your First Aid. If you take Hemphobic. You either suffer a massive negative to learning first aid or you can never go above first aid 3.

 

Clumsy - With new animations, more of a trip chance. 

 

After playing for awhile, the str benefits.. they seem almost like "must haves". Maybe tone them back a bit for the same cost so they don't seem like a requirement. +1 carry instead of +2 each. And being able to use a sledgehammer endlessly with them.. thats kinda crazy. Without it 2 sledges and you are done. With it.. Its like 10. Thats a crazy bonus. If the physical bonuses are gonna stay so high, maybe make the mental bonues alot higher. Learning skills super fast. I don't like the +1 stuff as much maybe adding higher bonuses for faster skilling into each of those. +1 Trapping becomes +1 Trapping and 200% skill bonus. 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2016 by Slice985

[Jack Bower]

I am extremely disappointed herbalists can't make poison.

[ReverendNow]

Does anyone know how taking Restless Sleeper and Wakeful compares to taking Sleepyhead alone?  These alternatives have the same cost, but I think there may be a balance issue here, depending on how the traits involved work.

 

Sleepyhead and Wakeful are opposite traits, but Wakeful only costs 2 points, whereas Sleepyhead grants 4 points.  Restless Sleeper, which grants 6 points, is another fatigue-influencing negative trait like Sleepyhead.  However, since it isn't considered an "opposite" trait to Wakeful, it can be combined with that trait.  If the fatigue increase caused by Sleepyhead is really worth 4 points, then insofar as Wakeful takes a "Sleepyhead"-sized bite out of the impact of Restless Sleeper, Wakeful + Restless Sleeper should effectively have a 2 point value advantage over taking Sleepyhead alone.  If true, that could be considered a balance issue. 

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2016 by ReverendNow