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Easily Digestible List of Trait Balance Issues


lemmy101

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 No offense guys.

 

 

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Protip, saying No offence does not defuse your post. Remember to Be Lovely please :)

 

If you think you need to say 'no offence', or some vein of it, rewrite your post till you don't need to. You can say what you mean without causing offence.

...

 

And on another tack, is there any consensus here? We'd like to get some of this distilled :)

 

I only saying my opinion and i don't think i wrote some insulting, but i know that some people are sensitive and touchy, so with "no offense" i only want to ensure everyone that my lines are only another opinion like others have and not personal attack. Along with smile faces. I'm just straightforward guy and using less diplomacy than others. Warn me if you wish, ban me if you need, stone me if you want. But that's simply me.

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And on another tack, is there any consensus here? We'd like to get some of this distilled :)

 

Other than the detailed post I made on page 2 (which is mostly my opinion, and I feel we really need some more "exact" information to debate some traits), here are the ones I feel that are hard to debate against.

 

Traits that are 100% free points

 

High Thirst - Now that drinking from lakes is a thing, water is very easy to come by.

 

Hearty Appetite - Until food is balanced, its pretty much impossible to starve to death if you know what your doing.

 

Hemophobic - The drawback of this skill is pretty pointless, since if you need First Aid, your not gonna be attempting to kill zombies at the same time.

 

Weak Stomach - Same issue as Hearty Appetite, you have no reason to be eating rotten food.

 

Slow Reader (Single Player only) - Simply fast forward through, makes little difference and is free points.

 

Traits that are too cheap

 

Outdoorsmen - for only 2 points, having complete immunity to colds trivializes the whole point of rain and sickness. Must have for pretty much any build at that cost.

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And on another tack, is there any consensus here? We'd like to get some of this distilled :)

 

Other than the detailed post I made on page 2 (which is mostly my opinion, and I feel we really need some more "exact" information to debate some traits), here are the ones I feel that are hard to debate against.

 

Traits that are 100% free points

 

High Thirst - Now that drinking from lakes is a thing, water is very easy to come by.

 

Hearty Appetite - Until food is balanced, its pretty much impossible to starve to death if you know what your doing.

 

Hemophobic - The drawback of this skill is pretty pointless, since if you need First Aid, your not gonna be attempting to kill zombies at the same time.

 

Weak Stomach - Same issue as Hearty Appetite, you have no reason to be eating rotten food.

 

Slow Reader (Single Player only) - Simply fast forward through, makes little difference and is free points.

 

Traits that are too cheap

 

Outdoorsmen - for only 2 points, having complete immunity to colds trivializes the whole point of rain and sickness. Must have for pretty much any build at that cost.

 

I agree competely with that. But noone mentioned +2 free points for Hard of hearing. I taking i every time, because there is no difference in hearing, if you have it or not. Zombies before attacking char producing growling sounds, which you can hear even with Hard of hearing(i mean situation when char don't notice attacking zeds by sight).

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Conspicious is good for free points too, but not recomended for beginners and non-warriors. Some said Clumsy too, but i won't take it. If in the safehouse, i want to be safe and relaxed. With more sounds, some wanderer zeds may hear me inside and start to ram doors or windows. I hate this sound, it gives me creeps :D

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I agree competely with that. But noone mentioned +2 free points for Hard of hearing. I taking i every time, because there is no difference in hearing, if you have it or not. Zombies before attacking char producing growling sounds, which you can hear even with Hard of hearing(i mean situation when char don't notice attacking zeds by sight).

 

 

I used to take that, but now I try to avoid it if at all possible. From what I understand it does affect the vision behind you, and has led to a few deaths from a zombie coming up from behind while panic'd with this trait and getting bitten.

 

Traits really need a detailed description at some point IMO to help evaluate them properly, and to fully understand how they affect certain mechanics.

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I agree competely with that. But noone mentioned +2 free points for Hard of hearing. I taking i every time, because there is no difference in hearing, if you have it or not. Zombies before attacking char producing growling sounds, which you can hear even with Hard of hearing(i mean situation when char don't notice attacking zeds by sight).

 

 

I used to take that, but now I try to avoid it if at all possible. From what I understand it does affect the vision behind you, and has led to a few deaths from a zombie coming up from behind while panic'd with this trait and getting bitten.

 

Traits really need a detailed description at some point IMO to help evaluate them properly, and to fully understand how they affect certain mechanics.

 

You died from attacks from unnoticed attacks from behind? Wow, this didn't happened to me. Mostly i die from simple scratch/bite, where virus takes control. And some deaths by being a hero and figting 6 zeds in one crowd, mauled to death. But not by surprise attack. I hear them attacking me every time and if i hear growling and don't see zed, it means i must turn around immediately.

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I'm on board with a few folks that have posted saying we need slightly more revealing descriptions of all the traits. Until we know more about how specific traits work, there's no real way to judge their relative value.

 

 

 

Traits really need a detailed description at some point IMO to help evaluate them properly, and to fully understand how they affect certain mechanics.

That is correct, guys. I reading this request everywhere, but no dev commented it till now. Maybe they planing to do it with 1.0 version. Let's hope...

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You died from attacks from unnoticed attacks from behind? Wow, this didn't happened to me. Mostly i die from simple scratch/bite, where virus takes control. And some deaths by being a hero and figting 6 zeds in one crowd, mauled to death. But not by surprise attack. I hear them attacking me every time and if i hear growling and don't see zed, it means i must turn around immediately.

 

Yes, if you have Hard of Hearing + Extreme State of panic, a zombie can literally bypass your entire perception radius to the point that hes already in the biting animation from behind before he "appears".

 

Granted, you could say it was my fault for getting that high of a panic state, but what I had "thought" was previously clear behind me was not, and a zombie came from behind while fighting 2 in front of me.

 

Needless to say, I don't take hard of hearing anymore unless I absolutely need 2 more points that I can't get from elsewhere. Short Sighted is a much safer investment.

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You died from attacks from unnoticed attacks from behind? Wow, this didn't happened to me. Mostly i die from simple scratch/bite, where virus takes control. And some deaths by being a hero and figting 6 zeds in one crowd, mauled to death. But not by surprise attack. I hear them attacking me every time and if i hear growling and don't see zed, it means i must turn around immediately.

 

Yes, if you have Hard of Hearing + Extreme State of panic, a zombie can literally bypass your entire perception radius to the point that hes already in the biting animation from behind before he "appears".

 

Granted, you could say it was my fault for getting that high of a panic state, but what I had "thought" was previously clear behind me was not, and a zombie came from behind while fighting 2 in front of me.

 

Needless to say, I don't take hard of hearing anymore unless I absolutely need 2 more points that I can't get from elsewhere. Short Sighted is a much safer investment.

 

I don't trust Short Sighted in turn. Never took it. IMO sight is more important in PZ than hearing.

Ummm Extreme panic... i avoiding groups larger than 4 zeds at the start, because extreme panicked char is not good fighter. In my hunt for free points i often chosed Coward. But not anymore. Without it you can be only slight panicked if fighting 3 zeds. But with it, every zed add you higher panic level, so it's not worth.

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I don't trust Short Sighted in turn. Never took it. IMO sight is more important in PZ than hearing.

Ummm Extreme panic... i avoiding groups larger than 4 zeds at the start, because extreme panicked char is not good fighter. In my hunt for free points i often chosed Coward. But not anymore. Without it you can be only slight panicked if fighting 3 zeds. But with it, every zed add you higher panic level, so it's not worth.

 

 

Don't think your quite understanding what I'm saying.

 

Hard of hearing does affect your vision from behind, and other than deaf it doesn't actually affect your "hearing" at all practically.

 

Short sighted only affects how far you can see and the fading. You can see plenty far enough even with short sighted, and it doesn't affect your close-up vision at all.

 

As far as panic, I normally don't take on more than 4 either, and still don't have a problem taking them down, even at extreme panic. It was just the combination of panic + hard of hearing, reducing my behind vision to basically nil, that caused a couple of deaths that discourages me from taking it.

 

Coward to me is still free points until either panic gets a significant buff, or zombie AI improves.

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I don't trust Short Sighted in turn. Never took it. IMO sight is more important in PZ than hearing.

Ummm Extreme panic... i avoiding groups larger than 4 zeds at the start, because extreme panicked char is not good fighter. In my hunt for free points i often chosed Coward. But not anymore. Without it you can be only slight panicked if fighting 3 zeds. But with it, every zed add you higher panic level, so it's not worth.

 

 

Don't think your quite understanding what I'm saying.

 

Hard of hearing does affect your vision from behind, and other than deaf it doesn't actually affect your "hearing" at all practically.

 

Short sighted only affects how far you can see and the fading. You can see plenty far enough even with short sighted, and it doesn't affect your close-up vision at all.

 

As far as panic, I normally don't take on more than 4 either, and still don't have a problem taking them down, even at extreme panic. It was just the combination of panic + hard of hearing, reducing my behind vision to basically nil, that caused a couple of deaths that discourages me from taking it.

 

Coward to me is still free points until either panic gets a significant buff, or zombie AI improves.

 

Never noticed it, so i can't agree or disagree with you. For me, Hard of hearing is not a problem.

Just today i had some problems during fight. I was extreme panicked, extreme overloaded and in high exertion. Oh and hungry. It takes 5 minutes till i killed 2 zeds, they barely even moved backward, as i beat them in slow motion :D

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  • 4 weeks later...

I dont understand some of these free points comments, namely these ones... High thirst and hearty appetite are extremely debilititating. Slow reader isn't a free pointer either. Time is no longer money in this world, time is now hunger and thirst and the combined cost of reading all the books is at least a few days more worth of food and drink. Probably a week or 2 more realistically. Whereas being a fast reader will net you more supplies by the time you finish with the books. Speeding up time doesn't counteract this. Hemophobic IS free points, but only until npcs are released. Clumsy and conspicous are also incredibly bad for you, I don't understand how anyone would think a wider noise circle and an increased zombie line of sight angle doesn't affect gameplay. At the moment high thirst and hearty appetite mean that you have to eat and drink about 20 to 30 percent more. When you're speaking percentages anything above 25% more or less is a lot. At least in every RPG I've ever played. With a 50% buff or nerf being legendary or unheard of.

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I dont understand some of these free points comments, namely these ones... High thirst and hearty appetite are extremely debilititating. Slow reader isn't a free pointer either. Time is no longer money in this world, time is now hunger and thirst and the combined cost of reading all the books is at least a few days more worth of food and drink. Probably a week or 2 more realistically. Whereas being a fast reader will net you more supplies by the time you finish with the books. Speeding up time doesn't counteract this. Hemophobic IS free points, but only until npcs are released. Clumsy and conspicous are also incredibly bad for you, I don't understand how anyone would think a wider noise circle and an increased zombie line of sight angle doesn't affect gameplay. At the moment high thirst and hearty appetite mean that you have to eat and drink about 20 to 30 percent more. When you're speaking percentages anything above 25% more or less is a lot. At least in every RPG I've ever played. With a 50% buff or nerf being legendary or unheard of.

 

Because getting enough food/water to be sustainable is already easy enough in the game? It makes those traits essentially free points. Same with Slow Reader, you have plenty of time to fast forward in single player to get through books.

 

I'll refrain from commenting on Clumsy and Conspicuous due to the new build where I honestly haven't messed with the zombies much yet, but in the previous build it was still free points since its even somewhat helpful in aggroing zombies away from a group, and you can honestly sneak if your having issues. Zombies have been far too easy to deal with due to their lack of proper grouping AI when attacking the player, but until I mess with them more in this build I'll hold back judgement.

 

So until being self-sustaining becomes harder, hearty appetite and high thirst will ALWAYS be free points (and honestly, its impossible nearly to make high thirst not be free points with the numerous ways to get water). 

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Does Pacifist lower your melee damage, because it sure does feel like it. My pacifist character rarely 1 hit kills while my non-pacifist nearly 1 hit kills each swing. Same strength but pacifist has blade at lvl 5 while non-pacifist lvl-6

 

If pacifist lowers your damage then that NEEDS to be mentioned somewhere, the only information i found regarding this perk was from a dev quote from build 31  " Pacifist (slower at learning combat skills)  ", while this part is true, you do learn slower, but no mention that you do much less damage, which is very misleading if the trait lowers your damage, which im leaning towards at the moment.

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Does Pacifist lower your melee damage, because it sure does feel like it. My pacifist character rarely 1 hit kills while my non-pacifist nearly 1 hit kills each swing. Same strength but pacifist has blade at lvl 5 while non-pacifist lvl-6

 

If pacifist lowers your damage then that NEEDS to be mentioned somewhere, the only information i found regarding this perk was from a dev quote from build 31  " Pacifist (slower at learning combat skills)  ", while this part is true, you do learn slower, but no mention that you do much less damage, which is very misleading if the trait lowers your damage, which im leaning towards at the moment.

 

Lots of traits are missing exact details on what they do or do not do. Baseball Player is a prime example of that, since it supposedly also increases your swing speed, but no where is that listed.

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  • 4 weeks later...

 

I dont understand some of these free points comments, namely these ones... High thirst and hearty appetite are extremely debilititating. Slow reader isn't a free pointer either. Time is no longer money in this world, time is now hunger and thirst and the combined cost of reading all the books is at least a few days more worth of food and drink. Probably a week or 2 more realistically. Whereas being a fast reader will net you more supplies by the time you finish with the books. Speeding up time doesn't counteract this. Hemophobic IS free points, but only until npcs are released. Clumsy and conspicous are also incredibly bad for you, I don't understand how anyone would think a wider noise circle and an increased zombie line of sight angle doesn't affect gameplay. At the moment high thirst and hearty appetite mean that you have to eat and drink about 20 to 30 percent more. When you're speaking percentages anything above 25% more or less is a lot. At least in every RPG I've ever played. With a 50% buff or nerf being legendary or unheard of.

 

Because getting enough food/water to be sustainable is already easy enough in the game? It makes those traits essentially free points. Same with Slow Reader, you have plenty of time to fast forward in single player to get through books.

 

I'll refrain from commenting on Clumsy and Conspicuous due to the new build where I honestly haven't messed with the zombies much yet, but in the previous build it was still free points since its even somewhat helpful in aggroing zombies away from a group, and you can honestly sneak if your having issues. Zombies have been far too easy to deal with due to their lack of proper grouping AI when attacking the player, but until I mess with them more in this build I'll hold back judgement.

 

So until being self-sustaining becomes harder, hearty appetite and high thirst will ALWAYS be free points (and honestly, its impossible nearly to make high thirst not be free points with the numerous ways to get water). 

 

 

Going to use the same argument I used in another thread -

 

In multiplayer, with no respawn, in groups from even 3 +, food is a problem. Think about NPCs as well where the mouths to feed at a time in a world can be 10+.

 

Devs, if you change hunger and thirst so it becomes difficult for somebody to survive in SP, you are probably going to heavily unbalance it for MP and for when NPCs arrive. Hearty Appetite and High Thirst fulfill their purpose in MP for sure, and if a multi-survivor world balance is what you are going for then making it so it is hard to sustain 1 person is going to ruin that balance.

 

Think about it. In my server we have had groups of six and even with two supermarkets and 2 residential blocks of scavenged food we had to break open into our emergency supply several times. And that is with fishing trips and farming.

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Going to use the same argument I used in another thread -

 

In multiplayer, with no respawn, in groups from even 3 +, food is a problem. Think about NPCs as well where the mouths to feed at a time in a world can be 10+.

 

Devs, if you change hunger and thirst so it becomes difficult for somebody to survive in SP, you are probably going to heavily unbalance it for MP and for when NPCs arrive. Hearty Appetite and High Thirst fulfill their purpose in MP for sure, and if a multi-survivor world balance is what you are going for then making it so it is hard to sustain 1 person is going to ruin that balance.

 

Think about it. In my server we have had groups of six and even with two supermarkets and 2 residential blocks of scavenged food we had to break open into our emergency supply several times. And that is with fishing trips and farming.

 

 

Till worms are nerfed, food will never be a problem. Also, fishing provides way more food then you could ever need. Its a bit tedious perhaps, but since tree branches are infinite, you can just grind out fishing and have more than enough to feed even a 3+ group.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

Going to use the same argument I used in another thread -

 

In multiplayer, with no respawn, in groups from even 3 +, food is a problem. Think about NPCs as well where the mouths to feed at a time in a world can be 10+.

 

Devs, if you change hunger and thirst so it becomes difficult for somebody to survive in SP, you are probably going to heavily unbalance it for MP and for when NPCs arrive. Hearty Appetite and High Thirst fulfill their purpose in MP for sure, and if a multi-survivor world balance is what you are going for then making it so it is hard to sustain 1 person is going to ruin that balance.

 

Think about it. In my server we have had groups of six and even with two supermarkets and 2 residential blocks of scavenged food we had to break open into our emergency supply several times. And that is with fishing trips and farming.

 

 

Till worms are nerfed, food will never be a problem. Also, fishing provides way more food then you could ever need. Its a bit tedious perhaps, but since tree branches are infinite, you can just grind out fishing and have more than enough to feed even a 3+ group.

 

 

Except nobody wants to grind fishing with tree branches or do any of that.

 

"Oh, you can make your character extremely depressed with this bad food, but there is indeed infinite of it!"

 

Oh, allow me to re-iterate.

 

Keeping a stock of good, edible food is always an issue with a large group in MP.

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Except nobody wants to grind fishing with tree branches or do any of that.

 

"Oh, you can make your character extremely depressed with this bad food, but there is indeed infinite of it!"

 

Oh, allow me to re-iterate.

 

Keeping a stock of good, edible food is always an issue with a large group in MP.

 

 

You do what you gotta do to survive. The option is there, if you refuse to fish to keep your group alive........well who's fault is that then really? Nobody wants to necessarily grind any skill such as carpentry, but if you want to build a base, guess what? You gotta grind it. Want a reliable food source year round? Gotta grind fishing. Want to use all your crops whenever you please? Grind Cooking. It's not like the fishermen traits are expensive to grab, seeing as you can start with level 4 and it actually has skill books unlike some professions (*cough First Aid/Foraging/Electrical cough*)

 

You can actually queue up several fishing actions too, you only need to pay attention if the Spear breaks. If you actually have a fishermen, it becomes that much easier to actually catch stuff.

 

So again, food is simply too easy to maintain atm, especially with infinite worms + fishing.

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Handy - too expensive

 

Hearty Apetite - mayby good on MP or sandbox but in survival i had to kill one charater because this made me run out of food :-|

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

Except nobody wants to grind fishing with tree branches or do any of that.

 

"Oh, you can make your character extremely depressed with this bad food, but there is indeed infinite of it!"

 

Oh, allow me to re-iterate.

 

Keeping a stock of good, edible food is always an issue with a large group in MP.

 

 

You do what you gotta do to survive. The option is there, if you refuse to fish to keep your group alive........well who's fault is that then really? Nobody wants to necessarily grind any skill such as carpentry, but if you want to build a base, guess what? You gotta grind it. Want a reliable food source year round? Gotta grind fishing. Want to use all your crops whenever you please? Grind Cooking. It's not like the fishermen traits are expensive to grab, seeing as you can start with level 4 and it actually has skill books unlike some professions (*cough First Aid/Foraging/Electrical cough*)

 

You can actually queue up several fishing actions too, you only need to pay attention if the Spear breaks. If you actually have a fishermen, it becomes that much easier to actually catch stuff.

 

So again, food is simply too easy to maintain atm, especially with infinite worms + fishing.

 

 

                                                                                                                       

 

@ yes fishing is good, but useless if u live far from the river or if you havent found the magazine that allows you to repair the broken fishing line. :(

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@ yes fishing is good, but useless if u live far from the river or if you havent found the magazine that allows you to repair the broken fishing line. :(

 

 

Honestly, spear fishing is perfectly fine. I don't even bother with rods because of the maintenance.

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@ yes fishing is good, but useless if u live far from the river or if you havent found the magazine that allows you to repair the broken fishing line. :(

 

 

Honestly, spear fishing is perfectly fine. I don't even bother with rods because of the maintenance.

 

 

i tried the spear 6 times and goted nothing, i assumed my zero fishing skill had some influence. also i think being exausted also afects the sucess chance :|

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Night Owl - Does nothing, and overlaps with Wakeful. Needs to be re-worked or removed from Security Guard, especially since it seems to be costing the profession points.

 

 

Bump for this. Traits that do nothing probably shouldn't be there until they actually do something :)

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