Jump to content

Melee skills re-organisation. (no more blunt & blade)


deprav

Recommended Posts

Edit : I changed the title.

 

It's been in a corner of my head for a while - I've been thinking the way melee skills are separated doesn't make much sense : someone who knows how to fight with an axe doesn't necessarily know how to fight with a knife as they're 2 totally different weapons, but someone who knows how to swing an axe would most likely don't have any problem swinging a baseball-bat.

So I think it would be nice to change the melee categories to one-handed and two-handed weapons instead of blunt and blade.
One-handed would regroup knives, crowbars, rolling-pins, screwdrivers, and future one-handed weapons that make it in the game (hachettes? machetes?)
Two-handed would regroup bats, axes, golfclubs, spades, I think frying pans should be two handed as it's pretty heavy to swing, and any other future two-handed weapons.


Edit :

The idea evolved down the page :

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/13403-melee-skills-re-organisation-no-more-blunt-blade/#entry168909

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Okay, but fighting with a knife would be completely unlike fighting with a crowbar. I agree that putting a bat with some nails in it in one category and a fire axe in another seems kind of arbitrary, but it's no more arbitrary than grouping all weapons by how many hands they're held with.

 

If you wanted to get really granular, you'd have to think about swinging weapons like clubs versus slashing weapons like knives versus stabbing weapons like … well, also knives but knives that are being used differently. Personally I think that level of granularity is excessive for a game like PZ. At first blush, I'm inclined to think that the game would be no worse off if all melee weapons were covered by one skill and all shooting weapons (guns now, eventually things like bows perhaps later) were covered by another.

 

I mean, let's consider the overriding fact: You're supposed to win. When it's you versus a zombie, one on one in a fair fight, you're supposed to win. Even on your first day with no skill bonuses, you're supposed to be able to win that fight. I think if we said that somebody who's competent killing zombies with a baseball bat is incompetent with a machete, it would end up diminishing the game somewhat.

 

That's just my two cents, though. I'm open to being told I'm wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I totally agree that using a knife and a crowbar are two totally different things, but the one-handed/two-handed separation is the "classic" RPG weapon skills layout, and it makes more sense if they intend to keep a distinction between melee skills.

Altho, I do agree that one melee skill to rule them all wouldn't be far fetched at all, Melee / Firearms / Archery does sound like a logical way to group the fighting skills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had an idea for weapon reclassification a while back but I'm not sure if I posted it or not.

 

Personally, I'd like to see weapon skills expanded a fair amount with knife skills, axe skills, club skills, hammer skills, spear skills, bow skills, crossbow skills, handgun skills, rifle skills and generic fighting and ranged skills. Basically, a skill for every weapon sub group and a skill that governs melee fighting in and ranged fighting in general.

 

The generic skills would cover basic fighting ability. Even if you're main skill is with a knife, if you've been in enough fights you're still going to do better with an axe than someone who is of similar skill level but not as experienced a fighter as you are. The generic skills would combine with weapon skills to boost overall combat effectiveness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I had an idea for weapon reclassification a while back but I'm not sure if I posted it or not.

 

Personally, I'd like to see weapon skills expanded a fair amount with knife skills, axe skills, club skills, hammer skills, spear skills, bow skills, crossbow skills, handgun skills, rifle skills and generic fighting and ranged skills. Basically, a skill for every weapon sub group and a skill that governs melee fighting in and ranged fighting in general.

 

The generic skills would cover basic fighting ability. Even if you're main skill is with a knife, if you've been in enough fights you're still going to do better with an axe than someone who is of similar skill level but not as experienced a fighter as you are. The generic skills would combine with weapon skills to boost overall combat effectiveness.

 

I thought about this as well as I've been playing Baldur's Gate again, and I've been wondering if that same system would work with PZ. In BG you can specialize in generic styles (one-handed / two-handed / two weapons) and specialize in each weapon (dague, short sword, long sword, bastard sword etc...). But I came to the conclusion it is too "specialized" and wouldn't suit Project Zomboid's spirit.

In RPG games such as Baldur's Gate with DnD rules, we're playing stories of heroes accomplishing epic quests, fighting dragons, magic creatures, mages and skillful fighters ; the heroe must become exceptionnally skilled with his weapon(s) to achieve his main quest  ! But PZ isn't about epic quests, it's about survival and the main thing we need our character to do is bashing zombies' skulls -which do not defend themselves- with anything he could possibly find.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Conflict with other survivors will definitely be a factor, though, and having different weapon skills to fit different situations could prove useful. Also, given that the professions system is becoming more in-depth to the point of rewarding specialization, I think that doing the same thing for weapons skills wouldn't be too far out of place. In fact, it could make it more rewarding for characters that operate in groups to specialize in one weapon skill over another.

 

EDIT

That being said though. if nothing else I think having one and two handed weapon skills would be a good idea to add to the current system. It drives me insane when I notice that a knife and an axe share the same skill group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Conflict with other survivors will definitely be a factor, though, and having different weapon skills to fit different situations could prove useful. Also, given that the professions system is becoming more in-depth to the point of rewarding specialization, I think that doing the same thing for weapons skills wouldn't be too far out of place. In fact, it could make it more rewarding for characters that operate in groups to specialize in one weapon skill over another.

 

EDIT

That being said though. if nothing else I think having one and two handed weapon skills would be a good idea to add to the current system. It drives me insane when I notice that a knife and an axe share the same skill group.

I did think about encounters with other survivors, and I still think one (or two, one-handed & two-handed) general melee skill would be enough. I don't think I understand where you're going with "having different weapon skills to fit different situations" ^^

Having a melee skill for each weapon would be a huge mess in the skill list, and there already are plenty factors to take into account to decide the outcome of a fight between two survivors : their physical strenght, their melee skill, their weapon's stats, their general shape, their health, their bonus & penalties etc... I really don't think there's any need to overcomplicate PvP with more stats and a poopload of different weapon skills. Even more considering that the time played//skill level relations would be the same.

Also -and that's an important point- there's a big part of luck when it comes to find items/weapons in Project Zomboid - which there's not in classical RPG : someone specialized in long swords can easily buy a long sword in the first shop he enters or on the first couple of monsters he kills. But in project zomboid, someone who specialized in one type of weapon is far from sure to ever find the weapon he specialized in before he dies, and that would be highly frustrating.

No one would ever specialize in frying pans, rolling pins, kitchen knives, golfclub etc... because they're supposed to suck and be used temporarily. Everyone would most likely go for the most effective and current weapons : baseball-bats, and maybe axes for the ones feeling lucky with loot. In the end, the devs would just have added (is that good english?) a big bunch of unused skills.

"In fact, it could make it more rewarding for characters that operate in groups to specialize in one weapon skill over another."

I don't see it ! I think specializing in either melee, guns or archery makes much more sense when it comes to group organization. I don't see any advantage in having one dude specialized in bats, one in axes, one in knives and one in rolling pins, when they could all be specialized in melee and use their favorite weapon anyway.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not saying every weapon should have a specialization. Just different sub groups for various kinds of weapons is all. I just want it to have more variety than a simple binary this or that sort of deal. Kitchen knives would fall under the same weapon category as pocket knives, combat knives, and probably machete. Rolling pins would likely fall either under club or hammer. Golf clubs and frying pans would be under club as well, I figure. I don't know how big exactly you're thinking I want to make this, but I'm DEFINITELY not suggesting we have individual skills for golf clubs, rolling pins and frying pans :(

 

Weapon scarcity is a big reason why I also suggested having generic combat skills like Fighting and Ranged that cover basic combat ability beyond your skill in your chosen weapon, so even if your last axe breaks you'd still be somewhat capable with the knife or hammer you have in reserve even though you didn't put as many points into it.

 

 

"In fact, it could make it more rewarding for characters that operate in groups to specialize in one weapon skill over another."

I don't see it ! I think specializing in either melee, guns or archery makes much more sense when it comes to group organization. I don't see any advantage in having one dude specialized in bats, one in axes, one in knives and one in rolling pins, when they could all be specialized in melee and use their favorite weapon anyway.

 

 

Different weapons perform well in different circumstances, is what I'm saying. A cheap spear you sharpened out of a stick would do great at a decent distance well outside the melee or grapple range of your opponent and is disposable enough to be thrown at an advancing or fleeing opponent. A knife is a good slashing weapon against humans who are unarmed or caught by surprise and can easily take out a single zed without much noise or fuss, but isn't that great in an extended fight against someone with greater reach like an axe. A hammer would be really durable and an axe or sledge would have high damage potential but be exhausting to use in prolonged engagements.

 

Stuff like that is the reason why I say it would be good for people to consider specializing in one weapon over another. It'd give people a reason to weigh the potential pros and cons over what weapon would be good for what situation as opposed to a straight linear succession from worst to best. It'd give the game a greater breadth of options for how you engage in combat and give a group of people a better reason to cooperate. Give them roles to fulfill in a group dynamic whenever they're engaged in a fight as opposed to sending in whoever happens to have the most powerful weapon at the moment.

 

I'm not saying make it so that combat in PZ is Dwarf Fortress levels of complex, but I think a system that's just a little bit more complex than the rather simple one we have right now would be awesome.

 

EDIT

I think this might be going too far off topic from the original post. This is your thread, deprav, so if you want to keep the conversation going here or have it split off into another thread it's your call.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

-snip-

Oh ! Yep that's not what I first understood. As you didn't explain with much details I thought you were suggesting something really close to classic RPGs (I'm really focused on Baldur's Gate lately, it haunts my brain), in which each weapon has its own skill.

Makes more sense now, I see where you're going :). I still think that's a bit too "specialized" tho ! I strongly believe someone who can handle himself in combat can pretty much use any weapon efficiently. And as I agree with what you said in your 3rd paragraph about weapons performing well in different circumstances and the group organization it implies, I think it would be better if it only was a matter of choice of weapon when the group leaves (who takes what?), instead of a long term commitment as in investing points into a particular skill that suits precise situations, which is a bit restrictive imo.

Also, not everyone starts a multiplayer game with friends, which means you don't necessarily have someone to rely on for situations your character would have difficulty to deal with depending on its melee specialization. You're also not assured to find a partner to diversify the combat skills of your group.

"I'm not saying make it so that combat in PZ is Dwarf Fortress levels of complex, but I think a system that's just a little bit more complex than the rather simple one we have right now would be awesome."

I do agree combat could be more complex, but I'm pretty sure it will be achieved through changes to the combat gameplay mechanics rather than complicating the skill-tree, as It's been announced the possibilities new animations offer have opened the door to new horizons for combat !

Also to come back on something you said in a previous post :

"Also, given that the professions system is becoming more in-depth to the point of rewarding specialization, I think that doing the same thing for weapons skills wouldn't be too far out of place."

I think that's what being done now if we take a look at the current Major/Minor skills of the new profession system. Combat is as much a survival skill as any other "profession", and you have to chose to specialize in combat to be effective ; which is enough when it comes to specialization imo. Even more if we consider we'll have more professions in the future, dividing combat into more sub-skills would be too much.

And don't worry if we get off-topic, I like discussing those stuff ; there often are good ideas coming out of it ;o

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll get on to a proper response sometime tomorrow, but right now I just want to comment on how hilarious it would be if there was a joke character named Lord Cutlery who wears armor fashioned out of pots and pans and dual wields frying pans in combat. I had that random thought while reading your post for some reason.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest some skill categories and improvements for a later build. Like this-

 

Melee:

Precision- Bonus to critical hit chances, particularly with bladed thrusting weapons.

Swing- Bonus to damage and swing speed, most effective on swinging weapons like cleavers and bats.

Power- Bonus to knockback and damage, most effective with axes and sledgehammers.

Dueling- Bonus to reach of melee weapons and blocking (chance that when wielding a melee weapon, NPC/other player's melee attack on you will be less effective). Also improves bare hand attacks.

Knowledge- Better repair and crafting of melee weapons. Unlocks some more difficult or abstract recipes.

 

Note: certain choices at the start/developed abilities such as "Axe Man" will increase effectiveness of specific melee weapons. Also, "Antique Collector" could allow players to craft swords, fireaxes, and other pre-apocalypse quality melee weapons

 

Ranged:

Aiming- Bonus to accuracy with all ranged weapons.

Firearms- Bonus to reload speed and critical hit chance of gunpowder weapons. Better at repairing guns. Can craft more effective attachments.

Archery- Bonus to reload speed and critical hit chance when using crossbows, bows, and slingshots. Better at repairing them and broken arrows, too.

Throwing- Bonus to accuracy, speed, damage, and critical hit chance on Zombies when throwing things. Can throw larger objects (if physical strength permits)

Gunslinging- Faster equip speed and damage in close quarters for ranged weapons. Weapons in your hands have less of a weight penalty.

 

Note: Knowing how to make guns could be a trait.

 

Survival Skills(No description means pretty self explanatory)-

Farming

Carpentry

Metal Working- Better Crafting of metal objects

Foraging

Cooking

 

Note: Fishing does require skill, but a lot of it is luck too. I think two or free traits giving bonuses/penalties to the player when fishing would be better

 

Movement-

Sprinting

Nimble

Lightfooted

Sneaking

Evaision- Higher chances of avoiding damage from zombies and weapons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would suggest some skill categories and improvements for a later build. Like this-

 

Melee:

Precision- Bonus to critical hit chances, particularly with bladed thrusting weapons.

Swing- Bonus to damage and swing speed, most effective on swinging weapons like cleavers and bats.

Power- Bonus to knockback and damage, most effective with axes and sledgehammers.

Dueling- Bonus to reach of melee weapons and blocking (chance that when wielding a melee weapon, NPC/other player's melee attack on you will be less effective). Also improves bare hand attacks.

Knowledge- Better repair and crafting of melee weapons. Unlocks some more difficult or abstract recipes.

 

Note: certain choices at the start/developed abilities such as "Axe Man" will increase effectiveness of specific melee weapons. Also, "Antique Collector" could allow players to craft swords, fireaxes, and other pre-apocalypse quality melee weapons

 

Ranged:

Aiming- Bonus to accuracy with all ranged weapons.

Firearms- Bonus to reload speed and critical hit chance of gunpowder weapons. Better at repairing guns. Can craft more effective attachments.

Archery- Bonus to reload speed and critical hit chance when using crossbows, bows, and slingshots. Better at repairing them and broken arrows, too.

Throwing- Bonus to accuracy, speed, damage, and critical hit chance on Zombies when throwing things. Can throw larger objects (if physical strength permits)

Gunslinging- Faster equip speed and damage in close quarters for ranged weapons. Weapons in your hands have less of a weight penalty.

 

Note: Knowing how to make guns could be a trait.

 

Note: Fishing does require skill, but a lot of it is luck too. I think two or free traits giving bonuses/penalties to the player when fishing would be better

 

Power comes mostly from strength not from skill in some weapon. (trait stout and strong)

Dueling being random = very bad idea especially in multiplayer.

Knowledge - it's already in game just different name.

"Antique Collector" - too complicated, require special tools and material, shouldn't be in game in my opinion.

I also don't like "critical hit" idea because randomness is not good thing for this game, also very bad for multiplayer.

Reloading/swinging faster is already in game.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

I would suggest some skill categories and improvements for a later build. Like this-

 

Melee:

Precision- Bonus to critical hit chances, particularly with bladed thrusting weapons.

Swing- Bonus to damage and swing speed, most effective on swinging weapons like cleavers and bats.

Power- Bonus to knockback and damage, most effective with axes and sledgehammers.

Dueling- Bonus to reach of melee weapons and blocking (chance that when wielding a melee weapon, NPC/other player's melee attack on you will be less effective). Also improves bare hand attacks.

Knowledge- Better repair and crafting of melee weapons. Unlocks some more difficult or abstract recipes.

 

Note: certain choices at the start/developed abilities such as "Axe Man" will increase effectiveness of specific melee weapons. Also, "Antique Collector" could allow players to craft swords, fireaxes, and other pre-apocalypse quality melee weapons

 

Ranged:

Aiming- Bonus to accuracy with all ranged weapons.

Firearms- Bonus to reload speed and critical hit chance of gunpowder weapons. Better at repairing guns. Can craft more effective attachments.

Archery- Bonus to reload speed and critical hit chance when using crossbows, bows, and slingshots. Better at repairing them and broken arrows, too.

Throwing- Bonus to accuracy, speed, damage, and critical hit chance on Zombies when throwing things. Can throw larger objects (if physical strength permits)

Gunslinging- Faster equip speed and damage in close quarters for ranged weapons. Weapons in your hands have less of a weight penalty.

 

Note: Knowing how to make guns could be a trait.

 

Note: Fishing does require skill, but a lot of it is luck too. I think two or free traits giving bonuses/penalties to the player when fishing would be better

 

Power comes mostly from strength not from skill in some weapon. (trait stout and strong)

Dueling being random = very bad idea especially in multiplayer.

Knowledge - it's already in game just different name.

"Antique Collector" - too complicated, require special tools and material, shouldn't be in game in my opinion.

I also don't like "critical hit" idea because randomness is not good thing for this game, also very bad for multiplayer.

Reloading/swinging faster is already in game.

 

 

Yes that is the point- A lot of the same things are in here but there are some differences as well. When I say "critical hit" I mean a kill shot on Zombies. There should be a block button or something to defend against melee strikes. Can you list all of the existing abilities(called perks in the code) for me? I am new to the game and the wiki is very outdated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

you might like that idea

 

Alright, new idea to simplify the melee skill-tree and at the same time make it deeper with a way to specialize in the weapon(s) of your choice :

Blunt & Blade are merged into one single skill called Close Combat (or Melee), No more accuracy/guard/maintenance sub-skills, and you gain XP for that melee skill when you kill zombies AND defend from them. As you level-up, you make more damages, you swing faster, you defend better, and you make better use of your weapon not to damage it, just as you do now, but you only have to level-up one skill instead of 3. I don't like the fact that we presently have to spend points to specialize into maintenance/guard/accuracy separately, they all go along and you can't really get better at one aspect of combat if you neglect the others ; as a martial artist I think it doesn't make much sense, and as a gamer it's rather frustrating.

And where's the specialization in that? Here it comes :D

When you reach a certain level, lets say level 5 for the exemple, you unlock a perk and get to decide what your favorite weapon (or weapon group) is : knife / crowbar / baseball-bat / axe / bare hands / frying pan / any future weapon etc... Just like the lumberjack's axeman perk, you get speed and damage bonus only for the weapon (or weapon group) you chose. And then at level 10 you get to choose another favorite weapon (or the same again, if you want double boost maybe?). The levels are arbitrary, I said levels 5 and 10, but it could be 3/6/9, or 2/6/10... whatever feels the most rewarding and balanced.

It could actually work the same way for firearms, having reload and accuracy in one single skill and choosing a favorite weapon instead of the gradual shotguns<pistols<rifles we actually have. And the close combat skill would define how good we can defend ourselves from being bitten when having a firearm equipped.

In the end we'd have a much simpler and readable skill-tab but more open to unique customization.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yes that is the point- A lot of the same things are in here but there are some differences as well. When I say "critical hit" I mean a kill shot on Zombies. There should be a block button or something to defend against melee strikes. Can you list all of the existing abilities(called perks in the code) for me? I am new to the game and the wiki is very outdated.

 

 

Sadly i'm too kinda new to game, you must learn most things by yourself i think. Blocking is automated now and it happens when a zombie is going to bite you, you do something like block and then push zombie away. Idea with manual blocking is very good especially in multiplayer when dueling in melee.

 

 

 

you might like that idea

 

Alright, new idea to simplify the melee skill-tree and at the same time make it deeper with a way to specialize in the weapon(s) of your choice :

Blunt & Blade are merged into one single skill called Close Combat (or Melee), No more accuracy/guard/maintenance sub-skills, and you gain XP for that melee skill when you kill zombies AND defend from them. As you level-up, you make more damages, you swing faster, you defend better, and you make better use of your weapon not to damage it, just as you do now, but you only have to level-up one skill instead of 3. I don't like the fact that we presently have to spend points to specialize into maintenance/guard/accuracy separately, they all go along and you can't really get better at one aspect of combat if you neglect the others ; as a martial artist I think it doesn't make much sense, and as a gamer it's rather frustrating.

And where's the specialization in that? Here it comes :D

When you reach a certain level, lets say level 5 for the exemple, you unlock a perk and get to decide what your favorite weapon (or weapon group) is : knife / crowbar / baseball-bat / axe / bare hands / frying pan / any future weapon etc... Just like the lumberjack's axeman perk, you get speed and damage bonus only for the weapon (or weapon group) you chose. And then at level 10 you get to choose another favorite weapon (or the same again, if you want double boost maybe?). The levels are arbitrary, I said levels 5 and 10, but it could be 3/6/9, or 2/6/10... whatever feels the most rewarding and balanced.

It could actually work the same way for firearms, having reload and accuracy in one single skill and choosing a favorite weapon instead of the gradual shotguns<pistols<rifles we actually have. And the close combat skill would define how good we can defend ourselves from being bitten when having a firearm equipped.

In the end we'd have a much simpler and readable skill-tab but more open to unique customization.

 

 

 

Well that favorite weapon perk idea is not so bad but in PZ i'm not sure, you just magically get better at that weapon? Better idea would be getting perk automatically when you actually used some weapon for long time (for example you killed 200 zombies with axe and then you get perk for axe).

Also merged everything in one skill would be not good because of points you have to spend on weapons.

Now you must invest a lot of points in weapon and managing your points is a problem. With that change you will need only 1 point, now you need 3.

Also sub skill "guard" - im my current gameplay i killed like ~600 zombies and only use guard maybe 10 times? So i have less points in guard because of that, i just don't use it so i'm not so good with it.

 

they all go along and you can't really get better at one aspect of combat if you neglect the others

So yes you can get better at one aspect of combat if  you neglect the others, that's true in real world and is true in PZ.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well that favorite weapon perk idea is not so bad but in PZ i'm not sure, you just magically get better at that weapon? Better idea would be getting perk automatically when you actually used some weapon for long time (for example you killed 200 zombies with axe and then you get perk for axe).

 

 

Well, if players have a minimum of common sense they'd choose the perk for the weapon they're using the most ! And having perks unlocking based on the number of zombies you've killed would be a mess ingame : someone who didn't spend points in combat would still be able to have those perks at a lower level than people who did spend some points in combat, XP reward not being the same amount. And rewarding someone who didn't invest point in combat, at lower level than someone who did, is the exact opposite of "feeling rewarding".

Sure it would be nice to have some kind of "realistic" way to depict someone's learning curve in a game just like real life, but a game needs game mechanics. Just like it doesn't make sense for someone who leveled carpentry from 0 to 1 to "magically" be able to build a lot of stuff all of a sudden. Or just like it doesn't make sense in classic RPG that someone magically wakes up with new spells/abilities when he levels up.

Designing good games is a matter of compromise, sometimes you have to sacrifice "realism" for a better gameplay.

 

 

 

Also merged everything in one skill would be not good because of points you have to spend on weapons.

Now you must invest a lot of points in weapon and managing your points is a problem. With that change you will need only 1 point, now you need 3.

Also sub skill "guard" - im my current gameplay i killed like ~600 zombies and only use guard maybe 10 times? So i have less points in guard because of that, i just don't use it so i'm not so good with it.

 

Well, that's precisely why I'd say it would be better instead of "not good". Maybe they'd have to lower the general xp reward when killing a zombie so you don't end up with more skill points that you can spend, but overall combat-leveling would become more intuitive and rewarding.

And considering we'll have more professions and skills in the future, you'll have plenty skill points management to do, even with a single close combat skill.

 

 

So yes you can get better at one aspect of combat if  you neglect the others, that's true in real world and is true in PZ.

 

That's true in the real world for combat-sports when you can specifically train the aspect you want to get better at (and even tho, every aspect of your general technique will benefit from that specific training) ; but in an environment in which you face real combat situations that put your life in danger, you don't have time to train or to even think about your accuracy/guard/maintenance when you're in the action, you just fight to survive and the longer you live to fight, the more experienced you become in combat. That's what combat leveling in PZ should depict imo.

Edit :

Also, keep in mind that combat mechanics will undergo some changes ! it's been suggested and discussed a lot and the devs wanted to be able to have new animations to make those changes, which is something they can do now that they have a full-time animator in the team.

Manual blocking is something we can expect from it for instance.

So I strongly believe combat skills could be less messy and divided if the combat mechanics themselves evolve toward a more interesting gameplay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, if players have a minimum of common sense they'd choose the perk for the weapon they're using the most ! And having perks unlocking based on the number of zombies you've killed would be a mess ingame : someone who didn't spend points in combat would still be able to have those perks at a lower level than people who did spend some points in combat, XP reward not being the same amount. And rewarding someone who didn't invest point in combat, at lower level than someone who did, is the exact opposite of "feeling rewarding".

Sure it would be nice to have some kind of "realistic" way to depict someone's learning curve in a game just like real life, but a game needs game mechanics. Just like it doesn't make sense for someone who leveled carpentry from 0 to 1 to "magically" be able to build a lot of stuff all of a sudden. Or just like it doesn't make sense in classic RPG that someone magically wakes up with new spells/abilities when he levels up.

Designing good games is a matter of compromise, sometimes you have to sacrifice "realism" for a better gameplay.

 

Well i think you didn't understand what i meant. I will try to explain this in more simple way.

 

Your character killed 200 zombies with axe.

So if you are not stupid you obviously invested some points in melee skills to be better melee fighter or getting that perk would require some points in melee combat and 200 zombies killed for example.

Now you get perk "axeman" or something like that because you killed 200 zombies with axe, not with general melee weapons like hammers, spoons, sticks, sledgehammers, baseball bat, knives etc. which all belongs to melee skill but with axe so you get extra perk to show that you are better at fighting with axe than all other melee weapons. This system is simple, clear, realistic and good for gameplay.

 

Now yours system is something like this: you do whatever you want to get experience, then kill some zombies with whatever melee weapon you want then magically pick "axe perk". Player could for example fight at start of the game with baseball bats, knives, frying pans becasue this weapons are more easier to get than for example axe but this weapons are kinda weak and of course smart player would not invest his perk to fryin pan (and it doesn't matter that he/she killed 100 zombies with that) but he/she would invest in some good (harder to find) weapon like axe for example buuuut wait! To that moment he didn't fight even once with axe. Did you see now absurd of your idea?

 

 

 

That's true in the real world for combat-sports when you can specifically train the aspect you want to get better at (and even tho, every aspect of your general technique will benefit from that specific training) ; but in an environment in which you face real combat situations that put your life in danger, you don't have time to train or to even think about your accuracy/guard/maintenance when you're in the action, you just fight to survive and the longer you live to fight, the more experienced you become in combat. That's what combat leveling in PZ should depict imo.

 

Nope, it doesn't matter if it will be combat-sports or fighting for your life with zombies it's still the same, if you don't do something you can't get better at it and blocking is perfect example: player rarely uses it but in meantime he/she swings/hits etc. a lot so he/she is not so good with blocking, he is better at swinging, hitting etc.and game reflect this and it shouldn't be changed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Well i think you didn't understand what i meant. I will try to explain this in more simple way.

 

Your character killed 200 zombies with axe.

So if you are not stupid you obviously invested some points in melee skills to be better melee fighter or getting that perk would require some points in melee combat and 200 zombies killed for example.

Now you get perk "axeman" or something like that because you killed 200 zombies with axe, not with general melee weapons like hammers, spoons, sticks, sledgehammers, baseball bat, knives etc. which all belongs to melee skill but with axe so you get extra perk to show that you are better at fighting with axe than all other melee weapons. This system is simple, clear, realistic and good for gameplay.

 

Now yours system is something like this: you do whatever you want to get experience, then kill some zombies with whatever melee weapon you want then magically pick "axe perk". Player could for example fight at start of the game with baseball bats, knives, frying pans becasue this weapons are more easier to get than for example axe but this weapons are kinda weak and of course smart player would not invest his perk to fryin pan (and it doesn't matter that he/she killed 100 zombies with that) but he/she would invest in some good (harder to find) weapon like axe for example buuuut wait! To that moment he didn't fight even once with axe. Did you see now absurd of your idea?

 

So, if the perks require melee points to be unlocked (which you didn't mention earlier), how is that different from having the perk unlocked at a certain level ?

I get your idea and your concerns don't worry. Though, I did precise the players would choose "his favorite weapon [or group of weapons]", because yes, it wouldn't make much sense to spend a perk-point into a low-tier weapon such as frying pans, so they could be gathered in groups, as the habits/reflexes you take from swinging a bat could be applied to golfclubs, frying pans, any heavy blunt weapon.

The thing is, you assume everyone would pick the axe perk and would get there only using low tier weapons, and you feel that would be exploiting the system. Firstly, I don't see how anyone would survive long enough to reach the required level to unlock the perk solely using shitty weapons. Secondly, if someone gets to the point he can choose the axe perk without having swinged an axe once, why would he pick the trait knowing axes are hard to find and it would most likely be useless for him at that time ; and if he does decide to invest into the axe perk for the future, I don't see how that could remotely be a bad thing if that's his choice.

Also, baseball-bats and knives are nowhere near weak. I choose a bat over an axe everyday, and keep the rare axe(s) I find to cut wood or destroy doors, and you can repair nailed-bats with 1 nail, which is awesome. Knives are one-shot machines, hunting knives are solid and they're a solid choice. It all comes down to the player's choices and way of playing in the end. You're obsessed with axes, but don't assume it's the same for everyone, I personally see plenty reasons not to take the axe perk. Even more considering we'll see more weapons in the future

Also², if people wants to be great with axes so hard, they'd take the lumberjack profession (IWBUMS version) instead of bothering destroying the rare axes they could find just to get the axe perk.

 

 

 

Nope, it doesn't matter if it will be combat-sports or fighting for your life with zombies it's still the same, if you don't do something you can't get better at it and blocking is perfect example: player rarely uses it but in meantime he/she swings/hits etc. a lot so he/she is not so good with blocking, he is better at swinging, hitting etc.and game reflect this and it shouldn't be changed.

 

Yes it does, they're not even close to be the same thing. Practicing a Combat-sport means you've time to train specific drills to work on a specific aspect of your technique/sport, if you're planning to improve a specific aspect of your technique during a match or a life-and-death situation, you'd have a surprise coming.

You cannot "not do something" in a real-life situation, if you plan to improve your swings and be bad at protecting yourself when your life is at stake, you'll most likely get killed before you can get remotely good at fighting.

Players rarely use blocking because it currently is a passive skill and they don't understand the point of it, combat is unbalanced and the mechanics are clunky, the 1-button mechanic is very likely to change.

Also you can't take PZ (a video-game) as a serious argument/proof to claim combat-sports and fighting for your life against zombies would be the same thing in real life, that makes no sense. And game is in alpha, it's bound to change.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Axe was just for example. It just makes more sense if your perk "favorite weapon" would be automatically given to player when he meets requirements for it. If player could chose his favorite weapon regardless using it or not it wouldn't any sense and realism. Rewarding player when he mostly fights with specific weapon after some time is better in my opinion for gameplay and for realism.

 

 

Yes it does, they're not even close to be the same thing. Practicing a Combat-sport means you've time to train specific drills to work on a specific aspect of your technique/sport, if you're planning to improve a specific aspect of your technique during a match or a life-and-death situation, you'd have a surprise coming.
You cannot "not do something" in a real-life situation, if you plan to improve your swings and be bad at protecting yourself when your life is at stake, you'll most likely get killed before you can get remotely good at fighting.
Players rarely use blocking because it currently is a passive skill and they don't understand the point of it, combat is unbalanced and the mechanics are clunky, the 1-button mechanic is very likely to change.

 

Hmm i don't see any real arguments here. When you don't do something you can't get better at it, how hard it is to understand. When player don't block he is not getting better at it. Even when blocking will be manual player would still try to avoid that because it's risky situation for character.

 

 

Also you can't take PZ (a video-game) as a serious argument/proof to claim combat-sports and fighting for your life against zombies would be the same thing in real life, that makes no sense. And game is in alpha, it's bound to change.

 

I didn't use PZ as a proof/argument for anything, i used common sense and simple logic. Training combat-sports and fighting against zombies are sure different things but still same logic apllies to them, if someone doesn't do something he can't get better at it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Yes that is the point- A lot of the same things are in here but there are some differences as well. When I say "critical hit" I mean a kill shot on Zombies. There should be a block button or something to defend against melee strikes. Can you list all of the existing abilities(called perks in the code) for me? I am new to the game and the wiki is very outdated.

 

 

Sadly i'm too kinda new to game, you must learn most things by yourself i think. Blocking is automated now and it happens when a zombie is going to bite you, you do something like block and then push zombie away. Idea with manual blocking is very good especially in multiplayer when dueling in melee.

I know how it works against Zombies. But yeah, a block button for Multiplayer would be nice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Axe was just for example. It just makes more sense if your perk "favorite weapon" would be automatically given to player when he meets requirements for it. If player could chose his favorite weapon regardless using it or not it wouldn't any sense and realism. Rewarding player when he mostly fights with specific weapon after some time is better in my opinion for gameplay and for realism.

 

"Axe was just an exemple", but your exemple does not work if you replace axe with anything else as you've put all the other weapons in the "generic weapon" basket. You even put it in bold to show me important how important it is to read axe as it was so much better than any other weapon.

You even said it yourself :

"Player could for example fight at start of the game with baseball bats, knives, frying pans becasue this weapons are more easier to get than for example axe but this weapons are kinda weak"

You're whole opinion is centered on the fact one weapon is above all the others and people would take advantage of it.

In most RPG, the choices the player makes influence the way he'll then play, and not the opposite as you're suggesting. In any good classic RPG that's how it works : you reach a certain level and have a point to spend in anything you want, even if you never used it before, a new weapon or a new capacity. PZ already makes a "realistic compromise" by only letting us leveling up skills we do use (as we need to "fill up" the skill points before we can go to the next level). That doesn't necessarily needs to be applied to everything such as perks, even more that kind of perks. I'd rather have to read a book about a certain weapon to get the perk than having to kill a precise amount of zombies with it (that's actually a good idea, the book.)

 

 

Hmm i don't see any real arguments here. When you don't do something you can't get better at it, how hard it is to understand. When player don't block he is not getting better at it. Even when blocking will be manual player would still try to avoid that because it's risky situation for character.

It's not risky to block, you block because you're in a risky situation, which should be any encounter with more than 1 zombie at fighting range. The fact that players rarely block only proves the combat isn't properly balanced yet, not that "When you don't do something you can't get better at it". Thing is you NEED to block to fight, as in, you shouldn't be able to only attack zombies in the first place, blocking should be a requirement to survive melee encounters. As you said, people don't even bother leveling it up because it doesn't serve any purpose for combat, so why even keep it ?

 

 

I didn't use PZ as a proof/argument for anything, i used common sense and simple logic. Training combat-sports and fighting against zombies are sure different things but still same logic apllies to them, if someone doesn't do something he can't get better at it.

"Nope, it doesn't matter if it will be combat-sports or fighting for your life with zombies it's still the same, if you don't do something you can't get better at it and blocking is perfect example: player rarely uses it but in meantime he/she swings/hits etc."

You basically said, "PZ should stay that way, as if you don't do something you can't get better at it and blocking is a perfect example because In PZ, players who don't block do not get better at it.".

Overall, your opinion about PZ's combat and why it shouldn't change is rather short-sighted, as you're basing your opinion on actual combat being representative of the "final product", when we already know its mechanics are bound to change, and therefore the combat related skills are bound to change with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't how to continue this disccusion, seriously. You are too centered about your opinion or you just don't know what i mean completely.

With that blocking thing i mean that now blocking is underleveled because you rarely use blocking against zombie, you just don't need that, just keep distance and attack. If you must block when fighting a zombie then you screw something.

I mean that players don't use blocking much and it wouldn't be used against zombies even with manual blocking and changing melee fighting.

It just doesn't have any sense, there is nothing to block when fighting with zombie.

There are various thing you do or not do in combat.

If you don't do something in combat you will not be better at it.

Why is it so hard to realize this simple thing.

 

So my character for example have 3 points in accuracy but only 2 in guard because i didn't block much.

Blocking is of course needed/important and of course i want to invest points in guard but i can't because i didn't block so much.

Simple as that, i didn't blocked much so i can't get better at it but i hit with "blades" a lot so my character is better at accuracy than guard and it's good game mechanic and it shouldn't be removed.

block.jpg

After some changes to melee combat and with npcs added i will block much more and it will have same level as accuracy.

My point is that these sub-skills are kinda good, maybe need some tweaking / re-organisation maybe maintance should be separate general skill connected with every weapon and tools.

But merging everything in one skill will be very poor and lazy design and that is opposite what devs did / wanted so far.

I aggre that re-organisation of some sort is maybe needed but in not the way you said.

I also know that current combat system is not "final product" and will be changed in future but sub skills are not so bad idea as you said it.

 

Axe was just used for example, i know that in rpg's you can invest your points etc. to whatever you want even when it doesn't have any sense but PZ is different type of game.

In PZ realism is very importrant thing and this is the reason why choosing favorite weapon is not good idea.

Automated perks from the other hand will be good because even with changed combat skills there will some kind of generalization (1handed / 2 handed or other system not seperate skills for every weapons in game) so these perks will be bonuses to specific kind of weapon a character is using.

If he used an axe for a long time and killed many zombies with that he will get perk to that axe.

It will be good mechanic, realistic, simple and rpg-like. We have that system already in other aspects of game (when you run a lot you get better stamina for example) and you want something like this: character get exp from farming and he invest those points in running/stamina.

 

 

In most RPG, the choices the player makes influence the way he'll then play

I don't really get that. With my idea it will be the same but also it will be realistic(and realism is importrant in PZ). If player chose an axe for his favorite weapon and he will use an axe a lot in fighting he will get perk with bonuses to axe after some time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

and you want something like this: character get exp from farming and he invest those points in running/stamina.

 

What, wat wahat waht !?

Man, you're not even close to grasp what I'm suggesting after 3 or 4 long explanatory posts.

I fully understand your idea and yes I'm centered on my opinion because I've been around for a much longer period of time and I have been following the game closely enough to be aware of the devs' ideas for the future of their game . I've also been around long enough to tell you that "more realism" isn't a good argument when it comes to game design, it sure is an important thing to consider for a RPG simulation-like game, but even the devs would tell you that something being "more realistic" doesn't necessarily make for good gameplay.

 

 

I mean that players don't use blocking much and it wouldn't be used against zombies even with manual blocking and changing melee fighting.

It just doesn't have any sense, there is nothing to block when fighting with zombie.

That just proves you don't understand what the guard skill represents neither (like a lot of new other players). It's not about blocking hits, it's about guarding yourself from getting scratched/bitten when zombies are in front of your face.

Also, I now understand why you're not getting half of the stuff I'm talking about and how merging the melee sub-skills into one skill would be good as you don't seem to be aware of how the current Major/Minor skills system -being introduced in the IWBUMS build 31- works, since you play on the version 30 or anterior as shown on your screenshot. (levels are now 1 to 10 and not 1 to 5)

Skills don't work as you think they do anymore. Now players' starting choices at character creation actually matters : you have to spend trait points into traits or professions that gives you Accuracy points at the start of the game plus a permanent xp multiplier, if you want to level it up at a reasonnable pace. If you don't spend those first trait points, you'll level it up a 0.25% of its original leveling speed. Having 3 distinct sub-skills for melee with that system means you have to spend points in all 3 sub-skills if you want them to level-up at approximatively the same pace, which would represent probably more than 12 trait points which you have to counter-balance with negative traits, not even considering some professions cost trait points, and you also have to think about spending points into survival skills.

This exchange ends here for now, and we can only start discussing reasonnably again once you've tried the new skill system introduced in the test branch (IWBUMS). instructions to get it are here :

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/4183-iwbums-the-i-will-backup-my-save-branch/

you can read the changes about professions and traits here :

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/12795-iwbums-build-31/

Don't bother answering without having played that version as it will only lead to more sterile conversation and irrelevant arguments, and that discussion has already got the thread pretty dirty and confusing, I'll report any answer as long as you don't have a clear idea about the direction skills are taking in that new version.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Anyone who played half-life knows that crowbar should do way more damage. Also I wouldn't mind a block/pushback button being added for when I want to pistol whip / bat with my gun and not attract every zombie in a 50 mile radius by shooting it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...