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Skills and Professions in build 31


Zorak

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It's my personal belief that now we have professions / traits modifying the XP gain speeds, XP multiplying books should be a thing of the past and books should be exclusively recipe acquisition based. I know others in the team disagree and think they still have a place, but that's what I'd like to see. I think it'd make the books feel more special and unique, and have quite a significantly unique effect on the game, instead of just an XP boost. Also would get rid of the issue on MP of people having to stand still reading for 20 minutes.

A very creative change indeed and I'm very much support of it. No more jack of all trade skill books aka the 100% exp booster for those f2p mmo junkies that paid real money for it xD

 

A guy here with a solid feedback, good modding skill has share his opinion about your game and I realize he felt the same way as you do regard exchanging rare recipe for those easy skill book right after he tried the demo and purchase the full game.

 

https://forums.undeadlabs.com/threads/project-zomboid-game-thread-mp-server.46983/page-8#post-644889

 

More about that link. It was started by a poetic fanboy and he help recruited a lot of Pz fans for steam play, including me, the dude that love skateboard but don't know how to get on it.

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It's my personal belief that now we have professions / traits modifying the XP gain speeds, XP multiplying books should be a thing of the past and books should be exclusively recipe acquisition based. I know others in the team disagree and think they still have a place, but that's what I'd like to see. I think it'd make the books feel more special and unique, and have quite a significantly unique effect on the game, instead of just an XP boost. Also would get rid of the issue on MP of people having to stand still reading for 20 minutes.

A very creative change indeed and I'm very much support of it. No more jack of all trade skill books aka the 100% exp booster for those f2p mmo junkies that paid real money for it xD

 

A guy here with a solid feedback, good modding skill has share his opinion about your game and I realize he felt the same way as you do regard exchanging rare recipe for those easy skill book right after he tried the demo and purchase the full game.

 

https://forums.undeadlabs.com/threads/project-zomboid-game-thread-mp-server.46983/page-8#post-644889

 

More about that link. It was started by a poetic fanboy and he help recruited a lot of Pz fans for steam play, including me, the dude that love skateboard but don't know how to get on it.

That OP is amazing <3

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It's my personal belief that now we have professions / traits modifying the XP gain speeds, XP multiplying books should be a thing of the past and books should be exclusively recipe acquisition based. I know others in the team disagree and think they still have a place, but that's what I'd like to see. I think it'd make the books feel more special and unique, and have quite a significantly unique effect on the game, instead of just an XP boost. Also would get rid of the issue on MP of people having to stand still reading for 20 minutes.

I like idea of having both xp and recipe tied to books, perhapse make recipe random so 2 beginner carpentry book can have different recipes.

How about decreasing reading time for skill books ? Most of us just alt-tab in MP when we read a book.

Btw did you played Dead State ? There is a nice perk/talent system. At lvl 3-6-10 ( in each skill) you can choose one of 2 perks related to that skill. So you can have 2 combat related characters and each have different abilities.

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It's my personal belief that now we have professions / traits modifying the XP gain speeds, XP multiplying books should be a thing of the past and books should be exclusively recipe acquisition based. I know others in the team disagree and think they still have a place, but that's what I'd like to see. I think it'd make the books feel more special and unique, and have quite a significantly unique effect on the game, instead of just an XP boost. Also would get rid of the issue on MP of people having to stand still reading for 20 minutes.

 

I am sad to hear that this is not the direction you guys are heading. I have been running a MP server for quite a while now. The story has been the same for every single person that joined:

 

They play for a week or so and then quit. When asked about what made them lose interest, their only reason is that the skill books remove any and all feeling of accomplishment tied to mastering a skill, and that they'd be back in a heartbeat if the skill books simply didn't exist for any one.

 

For now, we have tried to solve it by making the books "against the rules", but that comes with the downside if me having to manage my players and constantly be on the lookout for people breaking the rule, and the majority of the players are still not keen on it, as they don't want to sink time and effort into something and then risk someone else rushing past them by breaking the rule.

 

The skill gain rate without the books are insanely long, but I, and every person I've played with, agree that we'd rather have that, than the current system where reading a book completely bypasses the entire level. In multiplayer it literally takes at least ten times as long to read the level 5 book as it does to level from 4 to 5 with the absurd multiplier.

 

Even if you guys decide to keep in the grotesque multipliers, that effectively remove all sense of progression once you've found the book, would it perhaps be possible to make a server setting that disabled skillbooks for everyone?

 

I mean, I'd obviously prefer that you developed the game in a direction that completely matched my own personal taste, and that of the people I play with, but that's obviously not something I ever expect anyone to do, I would however very much like a way to remove or mitigate the single element of the game that cause myself and my friends to lose interest.

 

Just the tools needed to solve our problems, nothing more needed :)

 

EDIT: I should probably add that myself and the people playing on my server, are all old UO players, from before the trammel incident. So that's the mindset we bring to this game as well. None of us expect you guys to make a game that caters especially to our wants and needs, but know that there are people like us that have bought the game, and are currently being scared away by the lack of a challenging character progression system.

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-snip-

That's a well put argument actually. Made me at least rethink my stand on it. Just pointing out that Lemmy actually agrees with you and wants to take the multiplier books out... I'll also point out that the game is originally meant for SP and that's one of the main reasons I've wanted to support it for as long as I now have (I've never tried MP and likely never will). And imo for SP the multipliers work. At least for me. I do think they could really bump down the multiplier benefit and make them more rare (perhaps make faster to read?), but I wouldn't take them out entirely. Would you think that there's a compromise in that or do they just entirely spoil the whole game for you guys?

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- Snip as well :) -

 

I'd actually say that my optimal case scenario would involve keeping the books, but making a few changes:

 

- Limit the multiplier to something less absurd. Should probably not be more than x3 or x4.

 

- Make the multiplier the same across all skill levels. Giving the skills escalating XP costs and then giving skill books an escalating multiplier effectively just punishes characters that ever use a skill without having first read the book.

 

- Somehow disconnect the increased skill XP from the XP towards general levels. The current implementation makes it trivial to aquire several times more skill points than you can actually assign, because the incoming XP amount make the general level shoot through the roof.

 

These are the issues I, and people I play with, all agree on. And while I'd obviously prefer a system completely tailored to my own taste, I completely recognize that people are different, and want different things in their games. Which is why I, instead of pushing for a highly specific solution on part of the devs, instead ask for the option to modify these things on a server-by-server basis. It seems both a more reasonable request and simpler to actually implement.

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I agree that the skill system could use an overhaul. And I guess it's on the way, so I just figured I'd throw my two cents into the mix here.

 

For me the best part of the current system is in the beginning when I have to choose which skill to level up once I get a skill point. Unfortunately that aspect kinda disappears after a few levels, since the xp requirements for each skill increase much faster than the xp requirements for skill points, but oh well.

 

If it was me, I would scratch the morrowind approach and replace it with the fallout approach to skills, because ultimately that maximizes the dilemma each time you get to spend a skill point. Allow spending the skill points in any skill you like, but increase the cost so that higher levels cost more points. You could balance it by handing out skill points more often (or many of them each 'level', as in fallout). Then professions would be like fallout tag skills: they require fewer skill points to improve, which is particularly noticeable on higher levels because the requirements keep getting higher.

 

Anyway, you probably already thought about that already and I won't bore anyone with details about why I don't enjoy grinding individual skills as much as the more generic XP. Just figure I'd throw it out there, just in case. Maybe this is something that could be modded?

 

 

On the topic of recipes/blueprints, I think they would be an awesome addition! Could even have books that gives a chance to provide some recipe, where the chance depends on your profession. Like you read a book on mechanical engineering and there's a chance you learn something, and a chance you don't. In a way that might make things more exciting because you can then find a lot of books, and each one is like a lottery ticket.

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-snip-

That's a well put argument actually. Made me at least rethink my stand on it. Just pointing out that Lemmy actually agrees with you and wants to take the multiplier books out... I'll also point out that the game is originally meant for SP and that's one of the main reasons I've wanted to support it for as long as I now have (I've never tried MP and likely never will). And imo for SP the multipliers work. At least for me. I do think they could really bump down the multiplier benefit and make them more rare (perhaps make faster to read?), but I wouldn't take them out entirely. Would you think that there's a compromise in that or do they just entirely spoil the whole game for you guys?

I don't really know how mods work on MP Servers, but couldn't you just have the sever run a modified suburbsdistribution.lua that doesn't have any all skill books? Thus none would spawn?

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-snip-

That's a well put argument actually. Made me at least rethink my stand on it. Just pointing out that Lemmy actually agrees with you and wants to take the multiplier books out... I'll also point out that the game is originally meant for SP and that's one of the main reasons I've wanted to support it for as long as I now have (I've never tried MP and likely never will). And imo for SP the multipliers work. At least for me. I do think they could really bump down the multiplier benefit and make them more rare (perhaps make faster to read?), but I wouldn't take them out entirely. Would you think that there's a compromise in that or do they just entirely spoil the whole game for you guys?

I don't really know how mods work on MP Servers, but couldn't you just have the sever run a modified suburbsdistribution.lua that doesn't have any all skill books? Thus none would spawn?

 

It's possible afaik, of course it would require everyone to have the same mod installed who'd join the server.

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I like skill books in the current state. Just decrease multipler to x4 at max and reading time in MP and they will be fine.

The leveling aspect will be harder in build 31 so no one will complaining (at least i hope so) that mastering skills is to easy.

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It's possible afaik, of course it would require everyone to have the same mod installed who'd join the server.

 

 

That part is not hard, as there's a server setting that. The limitation is that I have no fucking clue how to actually make the mod.

 

Depending on what direction the devs end up taking with the skill books, I may have to learn it though. I love the game far too much to stop playing it entirely, over a problem that seems like it would be rather trivial to fix if I knew the first thing about modding :)

 

EDIT: Also, removing the books entirely is actually a sufficient, although not completely optimal, approach, since there's also a server setting with a global XP modifier. Would require some tinkering to find the right value to satisfy everyone on the server, but that bit is just a matter of trial and error :)

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It's possible afaik, of course it would require everyone to have the same mod installed who'd join the server.

That part is not hard, as there's a server setting that. The limitation is that I have no fucking clue how to actually make the mod.

Depending on what direction the devs end up taking with the skill books, I may have to learn it though. I love the game far too much to stop playing it entirely, over a problem that seems like it would be rather trivial to fix if I knew the first thing about modding :)

EDIT: Also, removing the books entirely is actually a sufficient, although not completely optimal, approach, since there's also a server setting with a global XP modifier. Would require some tinkering to find the right value to satisfy everyone on the server, but that bit is just a matter of trial and error :)

Modding is easier than you think. Since mods load after the base game, you can have them overwrite base game files such as the item spawning Lua file. Download an existing mod or two and take a look at the files. You will see the logic behind the design. You can open and edit lua files with Notepad (I prefer free Notepad+).

I'm a big dummy and I was able to make a couple mods. The tutorials are a big help. I think adding or removing items is the easiest kind of mod to make.

Running an MP server seems harder than modding to me!

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