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Talksintext

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I'm really not even going to try and explain myself any more, I just get wound up answering the same thing 5 times :P

 

With repect and humbly, Its not like you have spent so much time explaining anything. Should be understandable that a big change in game mechanics will bring noise and people would want to know more. 

 

But for real now. You make it sound like we are actually being a pain! I thought this is what Early Access was about: we giving our feedback and voicing our concerns during game development. In today's gaming world is hard to voice up your corcerns without being considered a whiner or a troll. If clear answers were given, unnecesary questions would be avoided. Not telling you that you MUST give us straight answers, just that you should expect this level of questioning and noise otherwise. You may even decide not to answer anything, its fine. 

 

And just in a final effort to explain myself: I'm not suggesting LOCKING carpentry completely. I'm suggesting several ways to avoid the grindfest. At the same time I suggest to limit what a character can learn, I'm asking for implementation of some generic skills available for everybody, based on the most basic survival skills. 

 

But I'll shup up now. Wouldn't want to be a problem...  :???:

You're not being a pain, but the last few posts on this thread are pretty much repeating the exact same stuff I replied to on this very page. I've been down this road before and it just results in me getting frustrated. You say I haven't took much time to explain it all but it was pretty explained in the Mondoid as well as in this thread but people are still responding with 'I don't want to be shoehorned into picking Carpentry' profession. Despite there about about 5-6 ways to get Carpentry skill.

Early Access - sure, definitely! But Early Access usually revolves around that 'access'. People are making assumptions based on what they THINK might happen on a system they have read a few paragraphs about on a news update. Someone involved in it has come on and said 'no don't worry we're taking this into account' and basically not being believed by a bunch of people who've never seen let alone played it. Doesn't become an Early Access build until it's actually released to anyone and until then all I can say is we're balancing the system to very much address the problem of everyone picking the same traits and professions.

And hey I've been writing these posts for the past 30 mins or so now, instead of working. So yeah I said I was going to stop posting before I get drawn into something because there is nothing to be gained by me defending a system no one has even tried yet, especially if my defenses just get ignored and the same concerns raised time again.

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We understand your concerns, and as I stated we have already factored this into the design.

If we LOCKED off Carpentry for those without the starting points, we'd get 10x this aggravation so I'm not really sure why that's been suggested as a better alternative to slowing it down.

I really think people are missing the point of the hobby / skill traits here. The point is even if 99% of people need to pick either a trait that offers carpentry skill or a profession that does, then guess what? TURNS OUT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT SURVIVAL SKILL!!!1111

"All characters that can survive alone for 6 months after the apocalypse tended to have some ability to use a hammer and nails to build stuff! Tres surprise." And yes we were talking about how to provide more mechanics for water. You're talking about 'shoehorning people' I really really don't get how this is an issue considering how shoehorned people have been with the existing traits / professions. This is a 1000x vast improvement but you may have to take a choice of a 4 point trait in every game. I don't see the big deal at all. All it's doing is making you need to pick another disadvantages. Don't want to do that? Change XP in sandbox instead, but guess what? We WANT you to need to pick disadvantages as it makes characters more interesting as do the positives. I couldn't give a hoot if it turns out all people pick one of those traits / professions with carpentry. They can have another 10 traits if they want so why all the tears? And hell, perhaps SOME people would like to purposefully avoid these traits actually perhaps use the water storing / looting mechanics and find some challenge in that, instead of everyone identiplaying to water collector and a farm.

If being able to build stuff is THAT important that everyone needs to go out of their way to ensure its a pre-apocalypse skill, then as I said above, that means it's pretty indicative that most people who survive would be in some way skilled in it and makes complete sense.

This is before we consider multiplayer, or finally NPCs.

I'm really not even going to try and explain myself any more, I just get wound up answering the same thing 5 times :P

 

That.......seems a bit excessive. My apologies if my post was one of the ones that added to the frustration. I think we all understand that the current profession/trait system is broken (they either don't work, provide an excessive/underwhelming bonus, and/or are simply must haves). The concern was that the new system doesn't repeat the same mistakes with obvious must have professions/trait picks.

 

Personally, to me carpentry only has two main attractions that make it a must have. Water collection and, to a lesser extent, stairs. If you are providing alternatives to water collecting, then its a moot point. While rain barrels will obviously always be the best means of collection, having alternative, and less effective, methods is very acceptable.

 

Stairs are only really needed for rooftop access, which is a nice perk, but you can accomplish the same things without them, so I don't consider it mandatory. Really I think the only concern here is water collection that is locked behind what will now be level 3 carpentry with the new system. People are only freaking out because we don't know your current plans with water collection, and while its kinda silly, the broken window thing riled up a few people too because they were introduced without a way to fix them (without doing extreme means), and they fear the same thing will happen with water collection.

 

Personally, I think its a great idea to restrict professions, but at the same time, its gonna be frustrating to play with the new system if alternatives are not added at the same time for water collection.

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I'll finish with one point: It's not even been released on IWBUMS yet. It's not finished yet. We're aware of all your concerns and will do our best to make sure they are unfounded concerns. And once it's released on IWBUMS, if we have 10 threads complaining that everyone only picks Carpenter profession then we'd obviously address that before it went to 31 release (which as I've said I doubt we will need to. Carpenter profession had to be given free points to make it worth picking at all as it happens (when you play it you'll see) the specific 'one skill only' professions actually felt like the weaker choices regardless of what skill they provide.)

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Early Access - sure, definitely! But Early Access usually revolves around that 'access'. People are making assumptions based on what they THINK might happen on a system they have read a few paragraphs about on a news update. 

 

Hey, we work with that we have, and that was my point entirely :) I've been advocating for patience since the begining, as I really trust you guys.

 

You are completely entitled to run the dev process as you like. You can give us the information at whatever pace you consider best. But you cannot be surprised by the level of noise raised on a topic like this. After all, I think for the good, we are quite an enthusiastic community ;)

 

Even if we are completely blind on the full picture, we may (only may) be expressing concerns that may (and only may) help to polish the system you have designed. 

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Guest easy AI opponent

I cannot imagine why in world full of containers, buckets and wheelie bins (+ plastic bag if necessary),
even an expert carpenter would choose to go through the trouble of contructing a (rain)barrel by himself.

For me thats the original design FLAW.
 

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Should note for anyone that feels this indicates some new "bad practice," this is very common: The system is implemented, tweaked, then content is expanded to accommodate it.

Water is infinite, whoo!
Add water shutoff? Better add reserves in taps so people don't die.
Add water to taps, but it's finite? Better add a massive well (that's also ultimately finite).
New carpentry system! Hey, a craftable item that lets you collect water, genius!
Let's add a river . . .

None of it just happens out the gate, and though there'll be new people constantly on the community, they need to at least take the future with some faith that things do change and are expanded on.

I cannot imagine why in world full of containers, buckets and wheelie bins (+ plastic bag if necessary),
even an expert carpenter would choose to go through the trouble of contructing a (rain)barrel by himself.

For me thats the original design FLAW.
 

28 Days Later.

Gosh, those buckets sure looked ineffective on that roof . . . (Takes opportunity to point out the rain collector should use adjacent roof spaces to determine the amount of water it collets. Tosses smokebomb and retreats to Suggestions.)

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No it isn´t, because you MUST HAVE carpentry in order to make Rain barrels.

 

Your 'Must have' description is Hyperbole.

 

IF indeed you were embarking on a difficult, single player game mode, then yes, you would indeed be wise to take carpentry, but its most certainly not mandatory and I for one would relish the challenge.

 

Huh, no, it describes exactly how the game works. Are you implying that you can build rain barrels without Carpentry?

Correct, you can have a friend who does have carpentry to build them.

 

And even if you didn't take the carpentry skill you can still level carpentry up it just takes longer, skill books will still presumably help.

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Guest easy AI opponent

I cannot imagine why in world full of containers, buckets and wheelie bins (+ plastic bag if necessary),

even an expert carpenter would choose to go through the trouble of contructing a (rain)barrel by himself.

For me thats the original design FLAW.

 

28 Days Later.

Gosh, those buckets sure looked ineffective on that roof . . . (Takes opportunity to point out the rain collector should use adjacent roof spaces to determine the amount of water it collets. Tosses smokebomb and retreats to Suggestions.)

 

OK granted, efficent rain collection requires a roof.

 

However to construct a wooden rain barrel by yourself feels remote from everday life.

I can not imagine in a million years that somebody would do that.

 

Maybe in medieval times or when stranded on a remote island but not in a modern day city.

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OMG so much drama about carpentry :-D.

You dont have to take that trait, it will just speed up bulding. In single player, right now you need about 200 nails + books to get those rain barrels. If you grind exp by sawing logs into planks it take evel less nails. In single player its not a problem to lvl up carpentry even if you need 10x more time and resources.

The new system is aimed for MP and NPC games. It will work a lot better once we get NPC.

The new system its great. Game gets harder deal with it or change it in sandbox.

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Correct, you can have a friend who does have carpentry to build them.

 

And even if you didn't take the carpentry skill you can still level carpentry up it just takes longer, skill books will still presumably help.

 

 

That will just alienate (I realize that this isn´t the best word, but I can´t think of another) many of the players that prefer Single-player.

Or the ones whose friends are not carpenters themselves.

Or those whose friends ARE carenters but failed to get the correct Profession Books.

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Correct, you can have a friend who does have carpentry to build them.

 

And even if you didn't take the carpentry skill you can still level carpentry up it just takes longer, skill books will still presumably help.

 

 

That will just alienate (I realize that this isn´t the best word, but I can´t think of another) many of the players that prefer Single-player.

Or the ones whose friends are not carpenters themselves.

Or those whose friends ARE carpenters but failed to get the correct Profession Books.

 

 

 

I prefer SP.  This latest addition will change things. It might make it harder.  It might make it so you really need to find some NPC friends to increase you chances for survival.  Judgement should be reserved until you have a chance to play it and see how it goes.  I am confident that if they release a feature that really throws off the game they will hear about it and they will change it.  It is good for us to hypothesize about what these changes might do to the game but we won't really know until we get a lot of people playing and see what works well and what might be broken.

 

Have faith in the developers.  They are trying to make the best game they can and they are clearly open to making changes when something they put in the game doesn't work out like they intended. Remember the game is still in development. 

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That will just alienate (I realize that this isn´t the best word, but I can´t think of another) many of the players that prefer Single-player.

Or the ones whose friends are not carpenters themselves.

Or those whose friends ARE carenters but failed to get the correct Profession Books.

 

 

I dont think you understand how the new system is going to work.

 

You dont 'Need' the proffesion books and you dont 'need' to take a carpentry skill, it will simply takes more time to level the skill.. 

 

I play SP and yes, I will mostly likley assign some of the free 8 points into carpentry, 

 

But even if I decided to make a character that had no carpentry, which I definatly will,  then YES, I will indeed have to level up carpentry.  And guess what?  If I dont find the skill book and dont manage to make a barrell before water shuts off, I will have to drink water from the toilets and sinks from some of the hundreds of houses,  indeed, I may even have to search out the well.

 

Unlike what you are suggesting there are an abundance of strategies to test, research and adopt,  Yup yup, I am certainly looking forward to trying to adapt to such situations and playing the game this way :)

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If you are truly commited to have variety in chars, which is great, I would like to challenge you to make it in a different way. If you are truly commited to the design choice of limiting skills, do it for real. Just tell me that a policeman will not ever be able to be proficient at Carpentry. Cap the levels 3-4-5 to certain professions. But please...do not condemn your players to a grindfest... :)

 

 

Personally, I think its a great idea to restrict professions, but at the same time, its gonna be frustrating to play with the new system if alternatives are not added at the same time for water collection.

 

 

I was about to write the same thing.

 

It's kind of pointless if we'll be able to reach lvl5 in every skill, honestly; obviously if must be role playing then you should add those elements that would allow that to be believable.

 

So if carpenter's advantage is the ability to create a rain barrel, I would like to believe, let's say, a female (let's pretend) doctor could survive using buckets, harder but not impossible. I don't expect her to chop wood and build stairs (but can barricade walls for sure), be the best cook or know everything about farming, I know she's smart and can learn, but she would not be that good. That would help roleplaying , especially in multiplayer, when you need someone to deal with your broken leg or your bruises and you don't want that person to be a carpenter that just learned first aid using tweezers.

 

The funny thing is, you already have all that it depends just on how you use it, so I understand the concern of users knowing it might go in a direction they don't want to because they've already been there.

And it's kind of unfair saying: you don't know and you're already "complaining". We talk about what we see and what you tell, so if many had the same impression, I really hope they're all wrong about everything, but listening (even in part) to them could be helpful in order to avoid a session of fixes/balancing, just saying.

If everything will be ok and it will turn out they were wrong, I am sure they'll be the first to be happy about it.

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I play SP and yes, I will mostly likley assign some of the free 8 points into carpentry, 

 

I think those "free" points come only with the unemployed "profession". 

 

Unemployed gives 8 points to start

 

In any case, after reading this thread again, I think indeed there are many impressions that will change once we get our hands into the update. For example, while reading this:

 

 They can have another 10 traits if they want 

 

 

Go and check this:

 

http://projectzomboid.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/charcreation.png

 

There is quite a big scroll bar on the traits screen. plus the ones already assigned. That's probably 4x (or more) the traits we have now... and we don't know what most of them will do. Template variety is going to increase even if every one picks carpentry either as a profession or a hobby. We'll see how it plays out... I'm already eager to do so :)

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I really think people are missing the point of the hobby / skill traits here. The point is even if 99% of people need to pick either a trait that offers carpentry skill or a profession that does, then guess what? TURNS OUT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT SURVIVAL SKILL!!!1111

"All characters that can survive alone for 6 months after the apocalypse tended to have some ability to use a hammer and nails to build stuff! Tres surprise." And yes we were talking about how to provide more mechanics for water. You're talking about 'shoehorning people' I really really don't get how this is an issue considering how shoehorned people have been with the existing traits / professions. This is a 1000x vast improvement but you may have to take a choice of a 4 point trait in every game. I don't see the big deal at all. All it's doing is making you need to pick another disadvantages. Don't want to do that? Change XP in sandbox instead, but guess what? We WANT you to need to pick disadvantages as it makes characters more interesting as do the positives

 

Hey, I agree with you. I think the only issue people really have is how carpentry is necessary, not because we want to build fancy bases (I never do, just a shelf and collectors typically), but because it's unrealistically necessary for water collection ONLY, which is necessary for life. But that's not realistic. Carpentry should be a skill people pick up because they want to be able to build up bases/forts.

 

There's lots of ways to balance water but not make it carpentry-only. Or require a natural water source.

 

For instance: greatly increase thirst. Make it so a couple bottles are needed per day (fairly realistic I'd say for being out in the elements and doing stuff). Now water management is needed for when you're out and about.

 

Second, make stale water go bad after a while (risk of sickness). So you can't just drink straight from a sink if it's been sitting there post-shutoff for 2 months (or a collector after a month of disuse). And toilets should have a risk of disease just because, from day 0. Now you're out and about, but unless you want to set up a fire and sterilize that toilet water you just found, if your supply of clean water runs out, you've gotta RTB or risk it.

 

Third, yes, buckets and more buckets (and garbage cans), and just draping a garbage bag over a simple log setup would work (but would be inefficient and prone to breaking ;)) These will hold a lot less, requiring more looting to find enough just for the player, not to mention crops, which require a more indepth system, either a lot of looting for basic collection supplies, a proximity to a lake/river and a sterilization setup, or carpetry skills for advanced rain collection (and that drip mod).

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