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Talksintext

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Grinding isn't such a bad thing . . . it's necessary to do tasks to survive, but right now, instead of it being something that happens naturally over the lifetime of your character, it's very easily gameable. Making the XP rewards adding class-based penalties removes the viability of grinding past a certain point.

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No it isn´t, because you MUST HAVE carpentry in order to make Rain barrels.

 

Your 'Must have' description is Hyperbole.

 

IF indeed you were embarking on a difficult, single player game mode, then yes, you would indeed be wise to take carpentry, but its most certainly not mandatory and I for one would relish the challenge.

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I agree with you in part Ohbal. I think you are saying some core abilities need to be generally available and not strictly limited to a single specialized skill path.

 

For example, getting water is such a critical survival aspect, Carpentry Level 2 Rain Barrels shouldn't be the only way to get water for your character. Someone should be able to have a chance at surviving without being a Carpenter or knowing a MP or NPC Carpenter.

 

I think the solution isn't a split between general and special skills, but the ability to create "makeshift" items at the lowest skill level. These "jury rigged" solutions might buy a character time, but long term survival should require an exploitation of specialized skill sets. If you want to make it to the late game, you either befriend a Carpenter or take his stuff. Grinding should be so resource intensive or dangerous that it just isn't worth it starting at the lowest level.

 

Having said that, I think skill sets should have overlap. Each necessity - food, water, health, shelter - should have more than one skill that can address that need. Some obviously better than others.

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Eh, don't like the idea of banning growing plants during the winter . . .
Kentucky's hardiness zonse: http://www.plantmaps.com/interactive-kentucky-usda-plant-zone-hardiness-map.php

Looks like most root vegetables can survive that (some with more preparation than others) to be harvested in the spring or throughout the winter. There are also winter grains and legumes.

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Besides, if you waste all your time grinding skills and things are balanced right... the game will kill you. Maybe we're not there yet, but the goal is that if you're just screwing around doing things your bad at (rather than actively trying to survive) the game is just going to  kick your ass.

 and if you DON´T waste all your time grinding, you wont have your carpentry skill at a high enough level and you will die of thirst, due to the lack of rain barrels.

 

catch 22?

 

 

No it isn´t, because you MUST HAVE carpentry in order to make Rain barrels.

 

Your 'Must have' description is Hyperbole.

 

IF indeed you were embarking on a difficult, single player game mode, then yes, you would indeed be wise to take carpentry, but its most certainly not mandatory and I for one would relish the challenge.

 

Huh, no, it describes exactly how the game works. Are you implying that you can build rain barrels without Carpentry?

 

And you are playing in "survive as much as possible mode", then yes, it IS mandatory, unless you want to hole up in the cabins in the middle of nowhere and never leave: those are the only places that have wells in Muldraugh.

 

 

Also, another point that has NOT been addressed bby commenters in this thread. As of now, getting any skill to lvl 4 and 5 takes ages, requiring several months (game time), if the RNG decides to NOT give you the correct skill book.. IN fact, you will probably will a)die or b) get bored with the game long, LONG before you get a skill to lvl 5 without books.

 

Conclusion:

 

-Considering that your cheracter isn´t suposed to survive long;

-Considering that high levels of skill (in this case, carpentry) is needed to ensure long term survival;

-Considering that XP gain is already very slow if you can´t get a profession book;

 

XP gain is in need of buffs, not penalties.

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The whole point of the update is that you can't be a master-of-all (have multiple 5-point skills).

 

Where exactly it was argued that carpentry= all?

 

 

 

Thus, players having an impossible grind to level 5 is intentional.

 

 

Why have a max level 5 for skills in the first place, then?

 

 

Working as intended.

 

Near-Forcing everyone to be a carpenter in order to not die of thirst due to the lack of Rain Barrels is intentional?

 

Make Carpenters dependent on RNG for the correct Profession book for skill lvl 4 and 5 is intentional?

 

Inserting even more grinding for skill levels 4 and 5 (if the RNG does not grace you with the correct book) is intentional?

 

 

 

 

Thus, perception of the leveling system must change to accommodate this new paradigm.

 

I honestly think that the dev team must rethink this paradigm.

 

It is going to shoehorn players in one path, and it is going to add more grinding to the game. I don´t think that´s the desired outcome.

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There is more to PZ than water barrels, particularly if you're a carpenter that sucks at farming and fighting. :-|

I can plant cabbages with farming 0, and I can sneak past/run away from zombies. I can fight and win with Blunt/Blade 0

 

I can make simple meals with cooking 0. I can forage some berries with Foraging 0.

 

I can´t make water last more without rain barrels, and that will require Carpentry 4 and more coming next update.

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No it isn´t, because you MUST HAVE carpentry in order to make Rain barrels.

 

I urge Indiestone to re-think the decision to apply penalties to XP gain. If you can´t find the correct profession books, getting any skill to lvl 3 takes long enough already; to lvl 4 and 5 is damn near impossible.

 

making Water barrels require carpentry 4 and 5 (small and big, respectively) will FORCE anyone to be a carpenter.

 

And even for those who ARE carpenters, missing out the correct profession books will mean they will die of thirst long before the grinded the skill enough to make the rain barrels.

There is a trait costing 4 that gives a point in carpentry ;) - You can have a point to start off in carpentry + normal speed XP for 4 points, which you can offset with a disadvantage. Don't worry we've thought about it all. :) Just a case of balancing.

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Lemmy, what about the players that, for <insert motive here> do NOT want to have those initial points in carpentry?

 

Their long-term survival will be, at the very least, severely impaired, and will shoehorn many, if not most players, into getting this particular carpenty trait.

 

And what about those that, for <insert reason here>, WANT to have their skills at the highest possible level? As of now, getting any skill to lvl 4 and 5 IS a grindfest if you don´t have a profession book, and that drops based on RNG. Slowing down XP gains won´t help in that regard.

 

Thats why I am voicing these concerns right now, before even balancing has started.

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And what about those that, for <insert reason here>, WANT to have their skills at the highest possible level? As of now, getting any skill to lvl 4 and 5 IS a grindfest if you don´t have a profession book, and that drops based on RNG. Slowing down XP gains won´t help in that regard.

 

Thats why I am voicing these concerns right now, before even balancing has started.

Then they can play sandbox with a massive XP modifier. :-)

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Or load their multiplayer save file with 5/5/5 and be invincible / untouchable.

You're right Jack -- people should be forced to have only one save for multiplayer; preferably with the save file cached on the server.

Until then, what's your point? It's the same situation as now and doesn't appear relevant to this discussion.

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And what about those that, for <insert reason here>, WANT to have their skills at the highest possible level? As of now, getting any skill to lvl 4 and 5 IS a grindfest if you don´t have a profession book, and that drops based on RNG. Slowing down XP gains won´t help in that regard.

 

Thats why I am voicing these concerns right now, before even balancing has started.

Lemmy, what about the players that, for <insert motive here> do NOT want to have those initial points in carpentry?

 

Their long-term survival will be, at the very least, severely impaired, and will shoehorn many, if not most players, into getting this particular carpenty trait.

As opposed to the previous days of Light Drinker, Brooding, Short Tempered characters?

The point is that type of carpentry would only be feasibly possible for someone with some kind of pre-apocalypse experience relevant to it, or someone who read a book on it, or who practiced for a long long time.

There won't necessarily just be one trait that offers a carpentry point, nor one profession which does. There are numerous ways to. And if you don't pick any of those ways, then your character isn't built to do DIY building water collectors and that would be an interesting survival challenge in itself. The new system is to encourage people to actually pick and weigh up more disadvantages in the negative traits. If it costs people another negative trait for the privilege of that pre-apocalypse knowledge, and if that kind of experience turns out to have that much of an effect on their survival, then the game, being of a realistic angle, should factor that into it.

And who is to say skill books will retain the same power? We have numerous things we can rebalance to make it perfect. 3x may turn out to be too long, or may not be long enough. We're not going to release this officially until it's balanced.

re: your second point, as EG says you always have sandbox. We could even add in an option to disable the skill train time modifiers.

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More I post about it the higher chance these exploits will get fixed.

Your concerns are noted and the devs are definitely aware of the problem (and have been for a very long time). When a fix is feasible, it'll be released. Until then, continuing to post the same gripes in multiple threads just draws attention to yourself.

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I'm not sure what the point of making it easier is. Should everyone just be proficient in everything? That's the exact opposite of what they're trying to do here. The WHOLE point is to differentiate characters as much as possible. If you need to be neurotic and level everything to 5, that's really on you. Otherwise, there's several other options for water. Find a well, be prepared, go to the lake (eventually). Other options may be available in the future.

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This is kinda turning into the broken windows medical update scenario all over again. Implementing something without a (good) solution to fix it.

 

Yeah, people can go and build their base by a well, but thats pigeon-holing them into 2 locations on the map. If there are gonna be alternative water collection methods (such as boiling the lake water and/or leaving pots/buckets on the ground to collect rain) then all is fine. But, if carpentry remains the sole source of water collection........then this is just creating more problems.

 

Carpentry is already a pretty powerful profession, allowing you access to rooftops for glorious unlimted survival (but to be fair, there is still the option of using pre-placed homes and knocking out the stairs with a sledge hammer). Hopefully before this update is released there is a reasonable alternative ready to go instead of rain barrels for water collection. It doesn't have to be as good as rain barrels, but we need something other than living by 1 of 2 wells.

 

Really looking forward to the profession/trait overhaul, but I'm hoping that it won't be the same scenario where 1 or 2 professions are useful and everyone ends up being forced to pick up carpentry.

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I would advocate for two things here, patience and constructive feedback.

 

IMO, everybody should be given a way to collect water. Its such a basic survival necessity (and so freaking easy to do... seriously, you don't need to build a rain water collector to get water. You could use a bucket, a bath, some hole in the ground that you plastify... there are dozens of ways). It just feels like an artificial barrier. 

 

As Moose65 says, as long as we are given something that somewhat guarantees our basic needs, I'm fine with it. It can be 10% as effective as something built by a carpenter, but it would give you the chance to survive. I would bet the water stored in WCs and such is likely to get nerfed at some point (or made it stagnant, I can't really see how we can drink from toilets one year after the water went down). 

 

In any case, and switching the subject to the grinding problem... I've always hated grinding, but somehow I always end up grinding in MP games. I can't help it. Since I started playing MMO games the grinding has been a burden in my soul. There are many games out there that force the player to repeat the same actions over and over.

 

The industry hasn't really come out with any good solution so far... except in one case: EVE Online. You need time (a lot of time) to level up some skills in that game, but you know what? You don't gind them. You just state that you are learning somethimg, and a time begins to count down. You are not forced to blast 1000 ships to get proficience in aiming. You just wait for the skill to get completed while enjoying the game itself (I'm stating it all the time, but this is just my personal opinion, I'm not saying this is perfect for all). 

 

If the leveling system in PZ was to change, somehow avoiding the grindfest, I would have no problem with it. This is more or less what I tried to explain before: you are not making it impossible for people to have everything on 5. You are just making it more boring and longer. Not really a brilliant design if you ask me. 

 

If you are truly commited to have variety in chars, which is great, I would like to challenge you to make it in a different way. If you are truly commited to the design choice of limiting skills, do it for real. Just tell me that a policeman will not ever be able to be proficient at Carpentry. Cap the levels 3-4-5 to certain professions. But please...do not condemn your players to a grindfest... :) 

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We understand your concerns, and as I stated we have already factored this into the design.

If we LOCKED off Carpentry for those without the starting points, we'd get 10x this aggravation so I'm not really sure why that's been suggested as a better alternative to slowing it down.

I really think people are missing the point of the hobby / skill traits here. The point is even if 99% of people need to pick either a trait that offers carpentry skill or a profession that does, then guess what? TURNS OUT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT SURVIVAL SKILL!!!1111

"All characters that can survive alone for 6 months after the apocalypse tended to have some ability to use a hammer and nails to build stuff! Tres surprise." And yes we were talking about how to provide more mechanics for water. You're talking about 'shoehorning people' I really really don't get how this is an issue considering how shoehorned people have been with the existing traits / professions. This is a 1000x vast improvement but you may have to take a choice of a 4 point trait in every game. I don't see the big deal at all. All it's doing is making you need to pick another disadvantages. Don't want to do that? Change XP in sandbox instead, but guess what? We WANT you to need to pick disadvantages as it makes characters more interesting as do the positives. I couldn't give a hoot if it turns out all experienced people pick one of those traits / professions with carpentry. They can have another 10 traits if they want so why all the tears? And hell, perhaps SOME people would like to purposefully avoid these traits actually perhaps use the water storing / looting mechanics and find some challenge in that, instead of everyone identiplaying to water collector and a farm.

If being able to build stuff is THAT important that everyone who plays go out of their way to ensure its a pre-apocalypse skill, then as I said above, that means it's pretty indicative that most people who survive would be in some way skilled in it and makes complete sense and maybe we should all have a practice with woodwork IRL.

This is before we consider multiplayer, or finally NPCs.

I'm really not even going to try and explain myself any more, I just get wound up answering the same thing 5 times :P

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I'm really not even going to try and explain myself any more, I just get wound up answering the same thing 5 times :P

 

With repect and humbly, Its not like you have spent so much time explaining anything. Should be understandable that a big change in game mechanics will bring noise and people would want to know more. 

 

But for real now. You make it sound like we are actually being a pain! I thought this is what Early Access was about: we giving our feedback and voicing our concerns during game development. In today's gaming world is hard to voice up your corcerns without being considered a whiner or a troll. If clear answers were given, unnecesary questions would be avoided. Not telling you that you MUST give us straight answers, just that you should expect this level of questioning and noise otherwise. You may even decide not to answer anything, its fine. 

 

And just in a final effort to explain myself: I'm not suggesting LOCKING carpentry completely. I'm suggesting several ways to avoid the grindfest. At the same time I suggest to limit what a character can learn, I'm asking for implementation of some generic skills available for everybody, based on the most basic survival skills. 

 

But I'll shup up now. Wouldn't want to be a problem...  :???:

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