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Things in the game that need to be cleaned up.


Jack Bower

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[...]

 

Broken windows are one of the last, non-zombie related dangers in the game, all be it a minor one, and it just makes me sad to think players even want this minor puzzle to be removable.

 

[...]

 

I think making more challenges to overcome would be more fun that simply removing them.

 

 

Well, you have to agree with me that it sounds a bit sad. A broken window a puzzle? A danger? What kind of world is PZ set in? I'm all for making our in game time as hellish as possible... but I think making silly things become a danger is not the best way to achieve this. 

 

Bring in more challenges, more danger, more whatever, but please don't make me feel like taking glass out of a window is out of my reach, because at least for me is an inmersion breaker. 

 

I'm pretty sure TIS minds are able to pull more realistic hazards our way than a broken window ;)

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Getting the carpentry skill to break into bases is all just part of raider gameplay imo. An issue is people constantly making new characters and non-stop attacking your base.

 

There should defiantly be a better solution than level 4 carpentry and building a set of stairs. Its kinda unrealistic, especially with the speed you can build stairs at. There should defiantly be alternatives, cause it just seems weird "oh look, that guy is building stairs straight into my base and.........it took all of 10 in-game minutes to do.

 

Realistically, it would take quite awhile to build some stairs, and someone would simply shoot you before you got anywhere near done finishing them if they were inside the base at the time. Things like ladders that you could transport (although at a heavy weight cost) would make more sense, as well as when they eventually add in physics so that floating sky bases isn't a thing.

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Yeah, except if I shoot a level 4 carpenter he invested a lot of time into that character. Meanwhile one could ladder his way into your base with sticks and stones.

 

That isn't a very good argument. That's like saying its not ok that someone with poor gun skill can gun down a master axemans. Not everything is fair. Also, I was thinking more of like a ladder that you could loot from select locations like the hardware store, although I guess a craftable ladder is imaginable......but would surely be dangerous. Crafted ladders could even have severe weight restrictions, to make sure your not running off with too much stuff.

 

Besides, think of the counter play involved. You could wait till someone is climbing the ladder, and simply push it back so they fall and break a leg. Stairs should only be an option into a person's base if you got plenty of time and there isn't anyone actively in the base.

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But I suppose the 'Realists' out there would argue "Hey, I could easy use my bat to remove broken glass in *real life* so why cant I in game?"

 

xD

 

 

As a realist myself, I go even further! 8-)

 

Why can't I put some gloves? Why can't I use some cloths to wrap my hand on it before removing the glasses? Getting injured becase you are in a hurry makes all the sense in the world. You are choosing the less of two evils. Getting injured because once that window is broken you have no way of removing the glass... not so much sense :)

 

 

Well, there are no gloves in this world yet.  So that answers the first one. ;)

Using cloth.. yea, I usually keep sheets in my pack and yes you could indeed remove broken glass with a weapon easily.

 

Its just that, you could use real-life examples to effectivly nerf the game back to pre v30,  people argue a whole host of survival things should be added because they are possible in real-life.  Winter Fishing, Trenches, Food Preservation, but all they effectivly do is make the "Game" easier..  Instead of playing the game and over coming these puzzles and challenges.. lets just petition the Developer to make it easier! 

 

Broken windows are one of the last, non-zombie related dangers in the game, all be it a minor one, and it just makes me sad to think players even want this minor puzzle to be removable.

 

How about... lets make breaking windows MUCH harder, instead one hit? (Double glazing?) Lets increase the chance of getting a cut, lets make those cuts be more dangerous..   lets make smashing a window MUCH louder.. like.. gun shot loud..

 

I think making more challenges to overcome would be more fun that simply removing them.

 

 

You are right that many suggestions that are 'realistic' would make the game easier.

 

The problem is that these 'puzzles' should not be the main challenges to the game. The challenge should come from primarily zombies, then NPCs and other players, then environmental issues, and lastly dangers from what I am going to call Darwinism (climbing through a window with broken glass in the frame is not smart. Any sensible person with a few brain cells between their ears would remove the glass before climbing through. Assuming they have the time to do so.)

 

Most of the 'realistic' suggestions that I read come from the environmental dangers or the Darwinism challenges. Few are mentioned about surviving zombies or players (of course there are always players that want armor and super weapons, etc). Most that I have seen tend to deal with issues that do not allow players to solve problems 'realistically' or in a logical manner.

 

Why can't I just remove the glass from the window frame, why can't I drink water from the river, why can't I put out fire, why are there floating safehouses? These aren't suggestions aimed at making the game easier, they are meant to fix broken game mechanics.

 

I do not believe the difficulty in PZ should stem from trying to figure out the only possible solution within the game realm/limitations, when realistically there should be multiple ways to solve these 'puzzles'. PZ has done a great job in some areas like food or medicine. You have lots of options to find food; Scavenging, fishing, farming, looting. I can disinfect and make bandages in multiple ways. I don't feel that having these options is what is killing the 'difficulty'.

 

This game will obviously never be totally realistic, but I believe the dev team and a lot of the community that loves it, hopes that it will be as realistic as possible (within the limitations of having a fun game). That's why we keep hearing these 'realistic' suggestions all the time. For many it is not fun to not be able to solve simple problems like glass in a window frame, or why my couch can't be moved. People are looking to play a Z-Apoc RPG survival game that allows them the creativity to do what they think is best in a Z-Apoc. This game is fantastic (better than any other) at delivering that, but it can still be improved.

 

Make zombies and environmental dangers a real threat. Catch a cold in the rain, pass out from exhaustion, get injured carrying too much weight up a sheet rope (Darwinism), have a horde of zombies bust down my door, have NPCs drive a truck through my outer wall with guns blazing. Things like that are what I feel should make the game difficult.

 

Glass in window frames is not what should make this game difficult. The game is fundamentally broken if that is one of the only real threats.

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To be honest, I think too much thought is being put into the whole "broken glass shouldn't be a threat" thing. The developers intend to put in a way to remove broken glass, which is why atm the chance for injury is low.

 

I think the idea they were really going for is "oh crap, there is a horde after me, I need to get inside asap!", where you wouldn't have time to try to force the window open or carefully clean the glass out. Your panicking, you smash a window, and while carelessly rushing through you get some nasty lacerations or some glass lodged in you.

 

I imagine when you can clean out broken windows, it will be a timed action, which you probably won't have time to do if your trying to get away from a horde in a hurry. So I wouldn't fret too much on this issue anymore, because its a unfinished feature.

 

Now if you want to argue they should have waited before implementing a half finished feature, that's fine. But remember, they needed to test the medical system (after all, this is an alpha), so they probably decided it was worth putting it in so they could make sure removing glass was working properly.

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i agree, there has been a little too much focus on broken glass. i mean when it comes right down to it, we should also be running a risk of getting cut WHILE breaking the glass in the first place, depending on the tool being used. i know that happens IRL, it happened to me a few times. and why do we not have a crunching sound while walking on broken glass that would give away our location? what if we walk across broken glass with no shoes on, why do our feet not get cut up?

 

don't worry so much about the Dangers of Broken Glass in a Window Frame. there are zombies outside who want to eat you, a cut from a piece of broken glass pales in comparison.

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, we should also be running a risk of getting cut WHILE breaking the glass in the first place, depending on the tool being used. i know that happens IRL, it happened to me a few times. and why do we not have a crunching sound while walking on broken glass that would give away our location? what if we walk across broken glass with no shoes on, why do our feet not get cut up?

 

ah, this is more like it!  Broken glass on the floor, risk of injury from breaking glass.

 

 

 

[...]

 

Broken windows are one of the last, non-zombie related dangers in the game, all be it a minor one, and it just makes me sad to think players even want this minor puzzle to be removable.

 

[...]

 

I think making more challenges to overcome would be more fun that simply removing them.

 

 

Well, you have to agree with me that it sounds a bit sad. A broken window a puzzle? A danger? What kind of world is PZ set in? I

 

No I think you mis-understand.  First, I did say 'Minor' puzzle.. I did NOT say danger :P

 

And then everyone has jumped on this whole idea that breaking windows should be the ultimate challenge or something. lol

 

Thats not my intention,  my intention is to point out that the majority of players focus seems to be leaning toward making suggestions to REMOVE challenges, instead of CREATING them ;)

 

syfy's suggestion I quoted above is exactly what I'm talking about....  for every 'new survival method'  there should be a 'new risk of danger'

 

Simply having the ability to remove broken glass, on its own is just lame...  sure have the ability to remove glass, but at the same time, introduce a counter balance, like risk of breaking glass to injury you and leaving broken glass on the floor (thats an excelent suggestion) so that every little challenge in the game isnt stomped out for the sake of realism :D

 

Anyway, I'll shut up now hehe

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Simply having the ability to remove broken glass, on its own is just lame...  sure have the ability to remove glass, but at the same time, introduce a counter balance, like risk of breaking glass to injury you and leaving broken glass on the floor (thats an excelent suggestion) so that every little challenge in the game isnt stomped out for the sake of realism :D

 

Anyway, I'll shut up now hehe

 

 

This part I REALLY have to disagree with. Technically, we can already "clean" a broken window by destroying the whole section with a sledgehammer and rebuilding it.......but should we really have to resort to that? No, it doesn't make sense either to always have a busted window in your base that could cut you at any moment. When they do implement a way to clean out the broken glass (in a reasonable manner), it will not diminish any of the challenge that is currently in the game.

 

As far as having a chance to leave broken glass on the floor when trying to clean out the window, that simply makes the whole exercise redundant. You have time to safely clean out the window (if you didn't, you wouldn't be cleaning it up in the first place right?), so why add in the extra layer of having to randomly clean it again because your guy spilled glass everywhere? Just doesn't make sense.

 

Sometimes realism needs to concede to gameplay, but this is not one of those situations IMO.

 

Seriously though........what is it with broken windows lately :/ Its almost turning into "yeah, don't worry about the zombies man, worry about broken windows that will slice your jugular open!" lately.

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Broken windows are one of the last, non-zombie related dangers in the game, all be it a minor one, and it just makes me sad to think players even want this minor puzzle to be removable.

 

Well, you have to agree with me that it sounds a bit sad. A broken window a puzzle? A danger? What kind of world is PZ set in? I

 

No I think you mis-understand.  First, I did say 'Minor' puzzle.. I did NOT say danger :P

 

Yes you did mate, yes you did :P

 

Its fine though, I understand your point. 

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Not bothered by broken windows :)  I'm always "Yay I cut myself..I hope glass is embedded in my arm :)" But so far just cuts...even got to the point of not looking for a unlocked window. I just break one out and climb in lol.

 

Would like to see player made doors work better when placed on the backside of a house. Made one today on a little base I set up and it's hard to get it to open from the outside....you have to pull up the drop down menu to open it :( 

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The puzzle in the game is how do you design a base that'll tirck the rank 4 carpenter to murder himself and ruin any chances of reaching the secure second floor, some examples of an addiquite trap would be a rope ladder leading to a second floor and after you have to stair your way to the second floor you'll trust the second sheet rope and take it to the apparent <Top floor> when really it just drops you down to ground floor and instantly kills you. The secret in this game is not being on 24/7 or simply building the skybase. It is about designing a base that after they break into it, they'll feel safe enough to kill themselves on their level 4 carpenter charater on your inside base traps.

 

*Edit* Which BTW is ruined if you implement ladders or siege items. The true struggle is the battle between character points and getting infected by any zombie who gets too close. You can in theory run around and grab tons of bullets / guns supplies but if you are bit at rank 4 accuracy it won't matter.

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The puzzle in the game is how do you design a base that'll tirck the rank 4 carpenter to murder himself and ruin any chances of reaching the secure second floor, some examples of an addiquite trap would be a rope ladder leading to a second floor and after you have to stair your way to the second floor you'll trust the second sheet rope and take it to the apparent <Top floor> when really it just drops you down to ground floor and instantly kills you. The secret in this game is not being on 24/7 or simply building the skybase. It is about designing a base that after they break into it, they'll feel safe enough to kill themselves on their level 4 carpenter charater on your inside base traps.

 

*Edit* Which BTW is ruined if you implement ladders or siege items. The true struggle is the battle between character points and getting infected by any zombie who gets too close. You can in theory run around and grab tons of bullets / guns supplies but if you are bit at rank 4 accuracy it won't matter.

 

Right now those are just bad gameplay mechanics that I would expect to be polished later. Setting traps is one thing, but being able to climb a sheet rope and NOT stop your character from falling is simply silly. Same thing with climbing stairs and falling through because the top tile is removed and you can't see it. If your relying on these mechanics now, don't be surprised when they change. Its called alpha for a reason.

 

No reason why you shouldn't expect changes, especially something simple and realistic like ladders (which I'm sure there would be counter-play to like tipping them backwards to remove them). Doesn't matter if their low skilled, you don't need and shouldn't need level 4 carpentry. Sky bases won't always be a thing, so if you piss someone off enough they can simply burn your base to the ground.

 

Also, I just want to point out, that zombie bites delete all kinds of skilled people, not just marksmen. Don't focus on what seems like broken mechanics right now and plan your strategy 100% around stuff like that. It WILL eventually change, and the developers will give you more legit traps, as well as more legit tools, for people raiding and defending.

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The puzzle in the game is how do you design a base that'll tirck the rank 4 carpenter to murder himself and ruin any chances of reaching the secure second floor, some examples of an addiquite trap would be a rope ladder leading to a second floor and after you have to stair your way to the second floor you'll trust the second sheet rope and take it to the apparent <Top floor> when really it just drops you down to ground floor and instantly kills you. The secret in this game is not being on 24/7 or simply building the skybase. It is about designing a base that after they break into it, they'll feel safe enough to kill themselves on their level 4 carpenter charater on your inside base traps.

 

*Edit* Which BTW is ruined if you implement ladders or siege items. The true struggle is the battle between character points and getting infected by any zombie who gets too close. You can in theory run around and grab tons of bullets / guns supplies but if you are bit at rank 4 accuracy it won't matter.

 

I find this fascinating as I don't play PvP multiplayer. I imagine poisoned food comes into play too. Locked doors and crates will also obviously further transform PvP multiplayer.

 

This might seem counter-intuitive, but I think enhanced communication might also further strengthen base security. If you can post a sign saying "Beware! This safehouse belongs to the Night Raiders. It is filled with traps, and if you attempt to break in we will hunt you down. Also, we leave nothing of value inside. Otherwise, leave us a message in the front door crate for all communications."

 

I think your safe house faces three types of potential intruders. One is the random opportunist who wants to steal some easy loot. The second is a known enemy. The third is the random grief player who wants to just be a dick and ruin someone's safe house for lulz.

 

You can ward off number 1 if you can communicate that you are a dangerous target. The reward just isn't worth the risk to the random opportunist.

 

But the nature of PvP is that number 2 is part of the fun. You want to match wits against an enemy. So you don't want safe houses to be impenetrable. A clever and determined enemy should be able to succeed and vice versa. Otherwise, why play PvP?

 

Number 3 is the biggest problem. How do you allow 2 but prevent 3? Aside from white list servers, I think the only answer is to continue to develop traps and counter measures which require an ever increasing commitment from the players to develop. Jack's defenses above utilize unpolished aspects of the game, but the theory behind it is good. You will have less grief players if they have to "grind up" skills just to be a threat. This suggests that overpowered game play tactics, like starting a safe house fire, should require more commitment (skills, items) than the counter measure (fire retardant wall coating).

 

Insta-death is a good balance mechanism in PZ. Give an advantage to defense over offense, and grief play should decrease. But determined enemies will engage in the arms race.

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Rope should function the same as sheet rope and I want to be able to tarp my windows instead of using sheets.

Which reminds me: Why can I use either rope or sheet rope to build a log wall, but I can only lash logs together for carrying with regular rope and not some sheet rope?

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Rope should function the same as sheet rope and I want to be able to tarp my windows instead of using sheets.

Which reminds me: Why can I use either rope or sheet rope to build a log wall, but I can only lash logs together for carrying with regular rope and not some sheet rope?

 

 

Good point.

 

But, I like to think of it as the ripped sheets simply hold the logs in place while I anchor them into the ground. Then the ground is what keeps them secure. (BTW we should need a spade to build a log wall. Just saying). I guess I like the idea that we shouldn't be able to use ripped sheet, and only sheet ropes.

 

As for carrying a set of logs. I just like to think that some ripped fabric from a skirt isn't going to have the tensile strength to support carrying multiple logs, where actual rope does.

 

I guess I support using sheet ropes and actual rope, but not ripped sheets. Ripped sheets should have little value other than crappy bandages and making crappy tools.

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When people steal from my base, I don't use stairs, I find there base and burn it to the ground. Or on evil dead server fire shots to swarm their base with zeds as theres so many of them, they break the place down.. I spent time gathering my supplies and building my base, steal from me you'll spend a hell of a lot more time fixing what I do. :)

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