Exhaustion feedback

[Sadeyx]

since running is now more of a rare, emergency only kind of thing,  it would make sense that what running you do do levels the skill up faster.

[Zorak]

Is exhaustion when you run tied somehow with how much your carrying ?

[nasKo]

Sprinting helps a lot. The map is huge, do you really want to walk everywhere? I personally usually make one or two trips between West Point and Muldraugh during a lenghty run and even with sprinting that journey takes about 2 in-game days :S

After leveling Sprinting to 4 I am afraid to make the hike with the new system at this point.

Increased the need for vehicles tenfold.

[Florin]

From EVERY playthrough/twitch I watched, people ALWAYS run, that is their main problem with endurance..

Running is bad in a zombie apocalypse anyway, you should always be careful, by walking you won't be using your endurance, remember that

The reason I used to always run was to level up sprinting. But if we can't run except in emergencies how else can we level it up?

Same. It's probably not worth investing effort into levelling up sprinting anymore. I can't think of very many situations in the game where you'd want to waste energy running, other than in very short bursts whilst kiting.

 

Sprinting helps a lot. The map is huge, do you really want to walk everywhere? I personally usually make one or two trips between West Point and Muldraugh during a lenghty run and even with sprinting that journey takes about 2 in-game days :S

It takes exactly 23 hours to walk from Muldraugh to West Point. I know this because I timed it for reasons. It sucks, but it sucks less than trying to sprint it and reaching maximum exertion constantly.

[Mithrawndo]

From EVERY playthrough/twitch I watched, people ALWAYS run, that is their main problem with endurance..

 

An average joe will run 30min before getting exhausted, trust me, it's even more than that in the game. But then, they run 30-40min, and fight 2-3 zombies, and become first level of exhausted (it's not a so bad thing, you can still manage to kill zombies with it), and then they are "wtf? system broken!", do it one day, go run 30min and do 20min workout, seriously, tell me you're not exhausted then and don't need at least 1h rest before doing it again.

 

Running is bad in a zombie apocalypse anyway, you should always be careful, by walking you won't be using your endurance, remember that

 

The irony is that if you didn't show the first level exhaustion moodle, I'd wager that nobody would have noticed or complained in this thread! The current system seems fine from my first few play through on 30.8, though I'd personally say it needs tweaked slightly for more exhaustion from moving around/carrying and less from fighting, as this keeps the flavour without punishing the player too much.

A system to improve your endurance through exercise is also, in my opinion a must have.

 

30 minutes running and 20 minutes lifting is almost exactly a gym session for me, and I don't have the luxury of sitting idle for an hour after I'm done. If I did, though, I wouldn't be so exhausted as to require complete rest without even the ability to cook, or clean, or read a book, or reorganise my shelves, or whatever.

 

I can live with having to sit down to get my breath back as a game mechanic, but honestly you should be able to do things like eat, drink, smoke and read whilst doing this. Right now, it's a fairly annoying and unnecessary mechanic: 9/10 times you'd be better served just sleeping for an hour, making resting nearly pointless!

[EnigmaGrey]

I can live with having to sit down to get my breath back as a game mechanic, but honestly you should be able to do things like eat, drink, smoke and read whilst doing this. Right now, it's a fairly annoying and unnecessary mechanic: 9/10 times you'd be better served just sleeping for an hour, making resting nearly pointless!

 

Oddly enough, it does slowly recharge while you stand still, and it'll likely be changed to allow some degree of this while moving around in the future, so resting/sleep to remove it isn't truly mandatory, it's just the more efficient option.

[Sadeyx]

 

 

From EVERY playthrough/twitch I watched, people ALWAYS run, that is their main problem with endurance..

Running is bad in a zombie apocalypse anyway, you should always be careful, by walking you won't be using your endurance, remember that

The reason I used to always run was to level up sprinting. But if we can't run except in emergencies how else can we level it up?

Same. It's probably not worth investing effort into levelling up sprinting anymore. I can't think of very many situations in the game where you'd want to waste energy running, other than in very short bursts whilst kiting.

 

I think it would be, since this is just the start of 'project fix late game by killing you before you get there'  I'm anticipating the need for good sprinting skills, especially if higher sprint skill means it cost less endurance

[Florin]

If they changed the skill so as to let you run for longer rather than faster, then yes, it would be worthwhile again.

[Ohbal]

I just started a new game on IWBUMS. 

 

Its practically unavoidable to get chased by Z's and once this happens, you get tired too soon. Either from running (which I didn't) or from swinging your weaping against 2-3 enemies. 

 

I need to give it more time, that's for sure, but my first impression was that the exhaustion penalties are a bit too much, and they come way to soon. 

 

I'll keep on testing

[RobertJohnson]

If they changed the skill so as to let you run for longer rather than faster, then yes, it would be worthwhile again.

 

It's the case already....

[Ohbal]

 

On the 8 Months After Preset i was able to kill 10-15 a day pretty easily while Hungry/Very Hungry with a Bat. Plus i was sprinting around like a madman in and out of houses to break zed line of sight. I never got lower than 50% stamina. 

 

 

Quick question, how do you know how much stamina you have left? 

 

Thanks!

[EnigmaGrey]

On the 8 Months After Preset i was able to kill 10-15 a day pretty easily while Hungry/Very Hungry with a Bat. Plus i was sprinting around like a madman in and out of houses to break zed line of sight. I never got lower than 50% stamina.

 

Quick question, how do you know how much stamina you have left? 

 

Thanks!

If the moderate exertion moodle appears, you have 80% remaining.

[Suomiboi]

I think what's throwing the curve here is something like Mithrawndo said, the old moodle used to make you be extremely tired in a single swoop. But now that there are increments people are just noticing the moodle and judging on that. I've found this a very functional update so far.

[EnigmaGrey]

I think what's throwing the curve here is something like Mithrawndo said, the old moodle used to make you be extremely tired in a single swoop. But now that there are increments people are just noticing the moodle and judging on that. I've found this a very functional update so far.

It doesn't help that it's angry red and calls itself "exhaustion." Sort of geared to trigger the "oh shit" alarm in one's head.

You can go to extreme exaustion and still be viable, if a bit weakened and slower.

[Jack Bower]

Sprinting skills adding speed is the best, that way I can track down those athletic people with melee weapons who think they are so clever taking their speed trait and show them some good old shotgun justice.

Also, has anyone tested sledgehammer with this new patch? Can I run around and just spam sledgehammer people to death with my extra-energy?

[Rathlord]

 

do it one day, go run 30min and do 20min workout, seriously, tell me you're not exhausted then and don't need at least 1h rest before doing it again.

30 minutes running and 20 minutes lifting is almost exactly a gym session for me, and I don't have the luxury of sitting idle for an hour after I'm done. If I did, though, I wouldn't be so exhausted as to require complete rest without even the ability to cook, or clean, or read a book, or reorganise my shelves, or whatever.

 

 

I appreciate that you don't like the system, but keep in mind you can actually do all of the things you posted with the exertion moodle; it doesn't stop you from doing any of those. I also mentioned to Lemmy that maybe those things could also reduce your exertion as well, so maybe that could help alleviate your concerns.

[lemmy101]

Right, not wanting to quell discussion but I think this thread has gone on long enough and is unlikely to reach any agreement and tempers are fraying quickly.

 

In short:

 

1)  We have and have always had a very specific ideology for the game, and that ideology has served us well and the majority of people who play our game bought it for that ideology. We can't buckle over a few people's disagreement when we know we're serving the vision the game is built on otherwise that vision is compromised and the result becomes diluted. We've buckled in the past and its that buckling that lead to the watered down difficulty levels in the first place. A camel is a horse designed by committee. While we value and involve the community heavily in the development of the game and that should be clear to anyone in the community, we need to be steadfast in what we feel important to serve the game's vision. It's our past dedication to hardcore, you're not immune, you're just a normal joe that got our game where it is, and horde killing is a no no for our game's default Survival mode or story modes. It's the antithesis of what the game is supposed to be about. The old endurance and zombie difficulty resulted in many players killing more zombies in a few days than Rick Grimes has killed throughout the entirety of The Walking Dead. In terms of the ethos of Project Zomboid it was broken. Simple as that.

2) The system is still being balanced. It will improve over the next few beta builds and all kinks will be worked out. If something is legitimately annoying or frustrating then of course we'll balance to remove the frustration from it while retaining the advantages the system is designed to have.

3) We will provide enough sandbox options that will cater for those who don't like the new endurance, or who value killing 10s or 100s of zombies more than being hunted and being terrified of them. If that's the experience you want to play, and paid money for the game while that playstyle was possible, you deserve the opportunity to play that way and we have no right to say you are wrong. However we will not compromise the vision of the default vanilla game and firmly believe (as many others do) that the new exhaustion system, while not final and not perfect, is in line with that vision. The old system was wrong for Survival mode, even if its a perfectly valid way people should be able to play our game should they choose. We added sandbox mode so that we would be free to pursue our vision for the main Survival mode, and as such will continue to do so. We will not deny you your own preferred playstyle but we're under no obligation to make your preferred play style the default or official play style on which most play, experience and judge the game, and we reserve the right to pursue the vision we set out for the game if we're not denying you the ability to play your own.

[Rathlord]

Copying this over from the other thread to centralize discussion:

So Florin, let's maybe focus on the future instead of the past. What could TIS do that would make the new system feel good for you? Are you willing to give it a chance or are you only willing to accept the old system back?

As I mentioned elsewhere, would you be okay with having timed actions/inventory management quickly regenerate your exertion so that you're actually encouraged to do things in between slaying zombies/exploring? Spend some time in a house messing with inventory or cooking your raw food, or building something and exertion could come back up? The point of the system is to get you to do other things than fight or run, and it sounds like that's what you do/want to do as well.

I honestly do want to work with you and anyone else who doesn't like the current iteration to get something worked out we can all enjoy. I apologize if I'm coming off blunt, that's not my intent. The current system is something I've been asking for for a long time so I hope you can understand that it's a bit frustrating when I feel like you're dismissing it out of hand without giving it a chance (or trying it after it's been balanced).

Have you tried a new game in the latest update today? Do you feel like that's a step in the right direction?

Again, I apologize if I've been letting my frustration show towards you. We both want the same thing, which is for PZ to continue to grow and flourish. I hope we can work together towards that goal.