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lemmy101

Exhaustion feedback

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1) You're meant to be able to kill at least 15 or so zombies before getting an exertion moodle. If you're getting it after killing a couple then something is wrong. Please report what weapon you used, what framerate you used etc because this is a blatant bug, perhaps framerate or weapon related, and shouldn't be used to judge the success or failure of the new endurance system.

2) Assuming it works correctly, is this too high, too low etc? My view on it, and one that is core to what Zomboid is meant to be about: Point is if you're sat there merrily killing 20-30 zombies in row on level 0 on all the fitness related skills, then you're being a super human horde slayer and its something we want to discourage since the idea is if there are 20-30 zombies there and you are on your own, you should be running. That's what the game's always been about. Or meant to have been about. Fear the horde.

You're meant to be fleeing for your life from the horde, not mowing them down with a baseball bat. and now I'm kind of scared we have developed a community of horde killers since the difficulty dropped who wouldn't consider anything else and would inherently consider it a faiure of the game if they can't singlehandedly wipe out a group of 20 zombies in the morning before lunch without getting tired. But I'm hoping it's just bug/balancing and these people are only killing a couple. Thoughts?

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I don't know about my frame rate at the time, but using a baseball bat/nail bat, I have trouble fighting a group of six to eight without getting exertion moodles. This is just kiting them around and swinging when safe to do so. Sometimes I can't even kill a single one before reaching high exertion and retreating to rest. Axe works better and can kill more zombies, as you'd expect, but exertion still occurs quickly.

I know you don't want people cutting down hordes of zombies effortlessly, but the effect of this change for me has been to turn every fight into a multiple-round slugfest with rest breaks in between each round. I already avoided fighting in the game as it's usually a waste of time and resources, but when you do have to fight, you don't want it to be like this.

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I got "barely able to move" after killing about three-five zombies. Axe. 45 framerate cap and 15 for lighting updates (if that even matters).

 

I like the system in general but I think it definitely needs tweaking before settling on it. I mean, maybe when the stealth system is introduced the stamina will be less annoying than I personally found it now, because you'll be wanting to stay out of a fight and save your breath in case you get spotted, then run.

But as of now I don't think it works so well, I walked out going for a looting run, zombies bunched together in a small group and I got exhausted way too quickly to the point going back to my safehouse would take 5 minutes of painfully walking while also getting chased closely.

 

Definitely would like balancing because I don't like being forced back to my safehouse every three minutes without being able to loot. As I said, maybe with stealth it'll help balance but we can only wait and see for that, I would like a temporary balance or something else for now personally. Thanks for giving us a place and for giving us time for feedback on features than being "we're the devs, deal with it" type of devs we get sometimes. Have a Clyde.  (clyde)

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Should note that 1) depends on the item used. If you're going at them with a golf club, rolling pin, or a plank, exhaustion may happen sooner. Know your weapon (frying pans, bats, axes, kitchen/combat knives are preferred).

And remember, the game doesn't take kindly to spamming attacks. Charge for a second or two prior to striking the zombie, and don't try to hit them while moving.

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To be fair, the numbers do vary quite a bit depending on the type of fighting:

In my epic quest to find a bat, I downed half a dozen zombies with a frying pan (no running) before the first moodle appeared. Rested a very short period of time.

Found a bat. Took out 3 zombies before the exhaustion meter appeared, but it was a hell of a lot struggling to down those zombies: shoving, pushing, hitting new zombies (trying to fight a small pack of them).

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I've played a few hours of it and I like it. It's nice to be limited by the game mechanics instead of my twitch. It used to be the only time I retreated from a massive horde of zombies was when I didn't feel like taking the time to kite them dead. Now even if I can properly manage them, the game literally forbids me from cheesing it. I like being forced to run from a sane number of zombies for once.

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Love it, can manage about 10-20 zombies (not all at once but in the same fight at least.) before tiring out. I have had more rewarding fights for my life since in the short term I can handle more zombies, but the fear is real again. You can't waste time fighting them if more are coming.

 

In my opinion it is most definitely on the right track. Coupled with a broken foot it becomes truly terrifying. Top marks to you lot.

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After some investigation the cause is clearer, as well as the reason why we and various others have never experienced the issue and couldn't replicate it. It seems this is very much related to wild swinging (those people :P we simply cannot seem to stop people from swinging their bat around their heads frantically no matter what we do :P) and people who do charged deliberate shots seem to be able to hit the 10-20 target easily, we may have a solution. Elegantly simple if a bit of a compromise on realism:

Tie the endurance loss from combat to the actual damage done to zombies. This way a frantic swinger does 10 swings to down a zombie, they are getting the same net endurance loss once that zombie is dead as someone who does it properly. Obviously this isn't entirely realistic, and in an ideal world we'd continue to punish those who spam the mouse button however the past year or two have taught us that they will never stop spamming the mouse and will continue to blame the game and get angry. So its not ideal but will provide the same benefits to those who like the new system and fight zombies properly, while not annoying those who don't. Seems like the best compromise possible. :)

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Tie the endurance loss from combat to the actual damage done to zombies.

 

Does this mean that a swing that hits nothing, takes no endurance?

 

And, presumably this also means you cant do more damage to the zombie than the zombie can take?   I dont know how damage and hitpoints works, but I'd worry that, for example, I execute a hit that does 200 damage to a zombie that only has 1 hit point left.

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Clutchin' at straws now... I did consider I may need some kind of text to better serve say the player noticing an NPC look a bit suspicious or nervous or whatever.

stawclutching.jpg

Tie the endurance loss from combat to the actual damage done to zombies.

 

Does this mean that a swing that hits nothing, takes no endurance?

 

And, presumably this also means you cant do more damage to the zombie than the zombie can take?   I dont know how damage and hitpoints works, but I'd worry that, for example, I execute a hit that does 200 damage to a zombie that only has 1 hit point left.

it would be capped to 1 hitpoint worth of endurance loss in your example there. And we'd likely put a small endurance penalty to missing swings.

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Maybe the effects of frantic swinging is something that can be covered in a tutorial/Kate + Baldspot mode or something. People often learn from in-game, participated tutorials nowadays, so it could help more now than it did before.

 

Put it on a switch so that the first time they play the game without the value = 1, the tutorial plays. After that point, it becomes an option before starting a new world, to replace the Survival Guide.

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Y'know, I was thinking that with this new animator.. why not just add a "winding up" animation? Pulling the weapon back a little slowly, and then when its peaked, tensing up a little, ready to swing?

It would tell players that your character is "charging" an attack, and that there's something happening, while making it fluid enough to not break up a sloppy, fast swing. People just don't see a difference between charging and crazily attacking; and there really isn't any feedback, in-game, during combat that lets the player know there's even a charging system. The fact they have to open up a tutorial and such might seem a little excessive, when you can make it immediately obvious without breaking immersion with a gauge, or meter.

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Clutchin' at straws now... I did consider I may need some kind of text to better serve say the player noticing an NPC look a bit suspicious or nervous or whatever.

stawclutching.jpg

Looks fine to me.

I guess sneaking it into an update an see what people say? :P

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After some investigation the cause is clearer, as well as the reason why we and various others have never experienced the issue and couldn't replicate it. It seems this is very much related to wild swinging (those people :P we simply cannot seem to stop people from swinging their bat around their heads frantically no matter what we do :P) and people who do charged deliberate shots seem to be able to hit the 10-20 target easily, we may have a solution. Elegantly simple if a bit of a compromise on realism:

Tie the endurance loss from combat to the actual damage done to zombies. This way a frantic swinger does 10 swings to down a zombie, they are getting the same net endurance loss once that zombie is dead as someone who does it properly. Obviously this isn't entirely realistic, and in an ideal world we'd continue to punish those who spam the mouse button however the past year or two have taught us that they will never stop spamming the mouse and will continue to blame the game and get angry. So its not ideal but will provide the same benefits to those who like the new system and fight zombies properly, while not annoying those who don't. Seems like the best compromise possible. :)

 

Why would you hold hand to those who not learn and play properly? Wildly swing sure make me exhaust faster than proper charge up and hit. The problem would be, they don't understand and the game not tell them anything or give them any clue. Still, PZ still in alpha and there will be a lot of change. I wouldn't care much about bad talking until the game is fully release.

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Clutchin' at straws now... I did consider I may need some kind of text to better serve say the player noticing an NPC look a bit suspicious or nervous or whatever.

stawclutching.jpg

 

Tie the endurance loss from combat to the actual damage done to zombies.

 

Does this mean that a swing that hits nothing, takes no endurance?

 

And, presumably this also means you cant do more damage to the zombie than the zombie can take?   I dont know how damage and hitpoints works, but I'd worry that, for example, I execute a hit that does 200 damage to a zombie that only has 1 hit point left.

 

it would be capped to 1 hitpoint worth of endurance loss in your example there. And we'd likely put a small endurance penalty to missing swings.

 

This also looks nice! Reminds me of the older Fallouts, and examining things in those games.

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After some investigation the cause is clearer, as well as the reason why we and various others have never experienced the issue and couldn't replicate it. It seems this is very much related to wild swinging (those people :P we simply cannot seem to stop people from swinging their bat around their heads frantically no matter what we do :P) and people who do charged deliberate shots seem to be able to hit the 10-20 target easily, we may have a solution. Elegantly simple if a bit of a compromise on realism:

Tie the endurance loss from combat to the actual damage done to zombies. This way a frantic swinger does 10 swings to down a zombie, they are getting the same net endurance loss once that zombie is dead as someone who does it properly. Obviously this isn't entirely realistic, and in an ideal world we'd continue to punish those who spam the mouse button however the past year or two have taught us that they will never stop spamming the mouse and will continue to blame the game and get angry. So its not ideal but will provide the same benefits to those who like the new system and fight zombies properly, while not annoying those who don't. Seems like the best compromise possible. :)

 

Why would you hold hand to those who not learn and play properly? Wildly swing sure make me exhaust faster than proper charge up and hit. The problem would be, they don't understand and the game not tell them anything or give them any clue. Still, PZ still in alpha and there will be a lot of change. I wouldn't care much about bad talking until the game is fully release.

Because those people are many in number and are just one forum post away from saying PZ sucks and stopping others from trying it out, or even moreso only a thumbs down button on Steam away from screwing our upvotes and affecting our visibility on steam and thus funding for the game going forward :)

Not to mention we want everyone to enjoy the game, and don't like reading people not enjoying the game. We just don't want those who don't look how to play properly to affect the experience of those who invest time into learning the game by making us compromise on what Survival mode is.

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Clutchin' at straws now... I did consider I may need some kind of text to better serve say the player noticing an NPC look a bit suspicious or nervous or whatever.

stawclutching.jpg

 

 

I'd love it if all those texts were stored in a single "journal" button, just in case you get more than 1 "text moodle explanation". Just put a little flashing "warning" icon for a few seconds when there is an update in your "journal" pad and let them read themselves what's happening to them.

 

They could also describe in detail other problems within you, like when you have a "Pain" moodle, it doesn't describe much what's happening and what is causing the pain, or why they feel "queasy" suddenly, with the help of this journal they could know the details. Locate it near the moodles screen :P You can name it "character's thoughts" or whatever works.

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Because those people are many in number and are just one forum post away from saying PZ sucks and stopping others from trying it out, or even moreso only a thumbs down button on Steam away from screwing our upvotes and affecting our visibility on steam and thus funding for the game going forward :)

Not to mention we want everyone to enjoy the game, and don't like reading people not enjoying the game. We just don't want those who don't look how to play properly to affect the experience of those who invest time into learning the game by making us compromise on what Survival mode is.

 

Be confidence in your game. Steam people are mostly cancer anyway. If they lack of simple and common sense thing about this while not seeking out the info and answer. Why would you lower your game standard for them? How about take this as one of "option" in Sandbox setting or make it in beginner mode? In State of Decay, the miss swing still take your stamina off, so you can't swing it wildly either. But that game has obvious stamina bar, so many people will stop doing it quickly. If PZ will go to the way without those obvious health and stamina bar, then there should be some clue about it. At lease make the Survival Guide come up as default everytime you play. It is outdated, but better than nothing.

Calling a group of people a "cancer" is never going to fly on this site . . . Be lovely in the future.

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Could we possibly make a text popup that happens any time a player swings like… more than ten time in ten seconds? Have it come up like ten times before shutting down.

I kinda agree that if people continually refuse to play the game right when being directly told we can't cater to them. Obviously we want to be as clear and up front as possible; but it's like people who want to play te game by grabbing firearms and shooting up all of the zombies. We can't cater to those people, either.

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