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Idea for reorganizing expectation of difficulty in the game. Thoughts?


lemmy101

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Just to get everyone on the same page . . .

Beginner is meant to be the "learn the game, please don't hold us responsible if you don't know how to play yet" mode.

Survival is the default experience, assuming you know how to play it.

Sandbox is the mode in which you get to define how Survival plays.




Leery about using "causal" explicitly in PZ, though. That word is everything the game isn't supposed to be: a tablet/cell phone game that's very easy to get into and doesn't require any real dedication from the player.
 
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Don't call it "casual". It doesn't matter what you call it. Add a tooltip or somesuch that pops up the first time you start a game, with a message akin to "If you've never played PZ before, it is strongly recommended that you choose the beginner preset". A lot of games do this with their tutorial. Development endorsement for starting out slow helps people feel less wimpy about it.

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"I kind of agree (and Will raised this very issue) however calling it Normal is a no no because it is NOT normal and we don't want to paint the impression that playing on this mode is a 'normal' PZ experience as it's not. Maybe we need a different name to beginner but we need some indication that its easier."

I actually think Lemmy is talking about beginner mode here. Not wanting it to be called Normal, because it's not. He don't mean survival.

Anyway, as Enigma just said sounds about right to me.

Edit: my quote got f'd up. Sorry :)

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Don't call it "casual". It doesn't matter what you call it. Add a tooltip or somesuch that pops up the first time you start a game, with a message akin to "If you've never played PZ before, it is strongly recommended that you choose the beginner preset". A lot of games do this with their tutorial. Development endorsement for starting out slow helps people feel less wimpy about it.

 

Problem is...People kinda just go:"I am sure that is bullshit, i want the real game!" and go to play what they see first, most people dont even read the tooltips sometimes, but that is on the player side, nothing a dev can do.

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I agree too, I never play "Beginner" mode on any game, always normal or hard, but if we explain it's like a tutorial and you SHOULD play that if it's your first game or if you having difficulty in Survival, it could be ok i think.. Still may need to find another word, I don't really like "Casual" tho...

 

What about "Pink Poney and Rainbow Zombie Apocalypse" ?

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How about having it so a player must start on the easiest setting and have several dozen NPC Survivors that tell the player how to play... like a tutorial they're forced to play?  As the Survivor gains experience, unlock (or maybe even force) more difficult settings.

 

Perhaps have difficulty settings like:

 

"New Disease - Some people have died after being scratched by the dead"  Maybe start in a funeral home where the deceased rises and scratches/bites the mourners.  NPCs can give the player tips for looting abandoned structures as most people flee, not very many zombies yet.  Maybe have the TVs working before the power goes out, have them give some bad advice like "stay in your home and wait for help"

 

"Outbreak - The newly dead rise and attack the living"  NPCs teach the player how to avoid and kill zombies, build simple structures

 

"Epidemic (or pandemic or make both) - You're one of only a few to survive this long" Most NPCs would be dead by now, maybe have some turn against the player to help their own odds of surviving

 

"Last person on Earth - Is there anyone else left?"  Probably have this pretty much how "Survival" is now, maybe with a couple reclusive NPCs in each town... maybe an ally, maybe an enemy.

I would like to see something much more difficult than the present difficulty of "survival"... I came in at build 29 (I understand it used to be harder), and honestly it gets boring after about an in-game month.  You've made a roof-top farm and bedroom, stashed all the non-perishable food in dozens of crates lining the roof, killed every zombie in town and looted everything you could need for years.  Unless something changes late-game, I think I could survive indefinately.  I've eaten *maybe* a dozen bags of chips.  Had my cabbage come in while I still had unspoiled food from before the grid went down.  What I need is a giant horde of slow moving zombies to come through, knocking down wooden walls, destroying items, etc. that forces me to move.  I can stay here forever. 

 

Maybe this should be a new topic, but since it deals with difficulty, I'll leave it here.  I think there should be guns and ammo everywhere... This is set in the USA after all, our guns outnumber our people, I literally own more guns and ammo than what I've found in the game.  Only down side is if you use them, you attract every zombie in a HUGE radius.  In real life, even a 9mm pistol would be heard for at least a mile, shoot that .308 and you get zombies walking through the forrest from Muldraugh to West Point.  Maybe bottle rockets to confuse zombies after gunfire?

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I agree too, I never play "Beginner" mode on any game, always normal or hard, but if we explain it's like a tutorial and you SHOULD play that if it's your first game or if you having difficulty in Survival, it could be ok i think.. Still may need to find another word, I don't really like "Casual" tho...

What about "Pink Poney and Rainbow Zombie Apocalypse" ?

Or "Easy but you're still gonna die hard if it's the first time you play".

Jason: I don't think difficulty should be forced upon a player. It would suck for a vet to have to go through all that. :/ I hate hand holding and babysitting.

Edit: maybe it's best not to overthink this and just let the devs decide on something pure and simple that works for everyone.

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BEGINNER - If you're a new player, start here. Trust us, this game is brutal. Don't get cocky. Find your feet here or stress and humiliation will ensue. Etc.

SANDBOX - For the intermediate player. Choose from presets, or customize every aspect of your game to your skill level or playing preferences. Etc.

SURVIVAL - The true, brutal and bloodthirsty Zomboid survival challenge. It takes no prisoners, so don't expect to survive for long. How many days can you last?

LAST STAND - Blah last stand blah. Quick dose of BAM zombies everywhere eek.

 

 

If I read Beginner, Sandbox, Survival I think about one, two, banana. Should mean, beginner might not be the the science proofed prequel to survival. If you are trying to give it a name, there should be a decision to which type of a game( r) your start screen should fit into. Something like:

 

economic:

Tutorial, Survival, Custom

Roleplay'd:

Tourist, Citizen, Philosopher, Spielkiste

Joking:

Very Easy, Easy, not normal, Zombox

 

I kind of agree (and Will raised this very issue) however calling it Normal is a no no because it is NOT normal and we don't want to paint the impression that playing on this mode is a 'normal' PZ experience as it's not. Maybe we need a different name to beginner but we need some indication that its easier. If people forgoe it even with the accompanying text warning them explicitly, then they deserve to crash and burn and nothing we can possibly do can steer them  :P

 

If you don't want to be normal, which I agree, this ain't it, there should be a independent difference between the game modes. I played about 30 hours before I every touched the sandbox. Now, when I play, I choose between shoot'em up, survival and building, depending on who I play with, then I configure it in sandbox just as I think it suits the best for those I play with. A predefined game mode should do the same, so someone who doesn't know the game(or sandbox) oder just doesn't want to configure could just use a preset which suits his play style. e.g somehow like this:

 

Living (focus on looting and exploring):

Low zombie population, Normal strength, low loot, slightly longer days

Survival (focus on realistic survivalism):

Normal zombie population, nigher strength, keen smell, normal loot

Killing (focus on sadisitc slaughtering of huge amounts of innocent zombies):

High zombie population, normal strength, keen hearing, high loot

 

 

 

Psycolog....Psyolo.... Py... PSYCHOLOGY(haha I googled it)!

 

If you don't want to give the player a decision, or brand him as a newbie ( there is only one world, my son: The real world) I think there could be two other possibilities:

 

1. Increasing game difficulty

You could prevent a heavy/bad start, by making the beginning easier. If the first 10 buildings around the starting location get better loot than normal, or the first 3 days spawn rate/strength is reduced, and raises day by day, until average after a week or so.

 

2. Increasing difficulty after playthrough

Yes, I played, the game until the end, repaired the helicopter, went for mount olympus, reanimated Einstein and defeated Satan with a spoon and a sheet rope. Now, I want my achievement! Nevermind. But even for those, who didn't reached the end of the game as I did, it could be some kind of account, that puts the game after installation in a beginner's mode with reduced difficulty. With every game that has been started, and played longer than 15 minutes, or per every hour played, or number of zombies slain.. meals cooked, pillows eaten, Spiffos saved... the difficulty rises a few times up to normal difficulty after 10 hours play time (or 50 Spiffos saved).

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Yes I think 'begginer' is one of those things where people dont like to class themselves as a begginer and wont select it, and then make it too difficult for themselves and are then forced to admit their mistake and eat humble pie by going back down the difficulty.  This isnt a good feeling, you kind of embarassed by your own over-confidence and start to feel bad about yourself.  When you start down this path, psycologically of feeling bad about yourself you associate that feeling with the game, and we dont want that =)

 

When Story mode is in, I Imagine that would be the first port of call for most new players.

 

Depending on how long and involved the story is of course a new player would probably use the story mode as a kind of tutorial or get to know the game.  Much like a 'campaign' option for an RTS, most people do that to get a feel for the game and dont feel bad if they suck.    But this very much depnds on how difficult the story mode is!  .. Ideally, you could plan for story mode itself to have different levels of difficulty,  and then have sandbox with its own difficulty settings where you can select 'begginer'

 

So my proposal would be;

 

STORY MODE -> Begginer -> Intermediate -> Advanced

SANDBOX has its own pre-sets Begginer -> Advanced..etc etc

SURVIVAL -> The real McCoy

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If you called it exploration mode people might try it to explore the mechanics of the game / look around and get a grasp before multiplayer

 

The problem I see with that word is that a new player typically regards 'exploration' as something to do when they are already familiar with the game.  An 'explorer' is usually someone who is already equiped to explore, its not the first thing you look to as a tutorial. At least, thats how I regard it.

 

I also feel 'Exploration mode' overlaps somewhat with 'Sandbox mode'  so it might be confusing to see those two options together.

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I think we just think about it too much.

I dont beleive this at all,  I would strongly argue that small things like this arnt thought about enough.

 

 Just add plain and simple "Easy" or "Survival light" or something,

 

case in point.

 

This first screen and first impression is extremly important,  you cant just throw 'or something' and hope it will work :)

 

They call it 'Expectation managment'

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I think we just think about it too much.

I dont beleive this at all, I would strongly argue that small things like this arnt thought about enough.

Just add plain and simple "Easy" or "Survival light" or something,

case in point.

This first screen and first impression is extremly important, you cant just throw 'or something' and hope it will work :)

They call it 'Expectation managment'

Ok you're right :P I guess you've got a good point there :)

I guess that answer only reflects my personality when I get frustrated.

When people overthink things, I tend to say "Dammit just do it and get it over with!" But I also agree that's not always the best solution.. :P it's probably a good idea to think this through a bit deeper. After all this is my dream baby game <3 thanks for the correction.

Edit: spelling

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I think the best would be to add your own imaginative name for a difficulty...

Maybe similar with the reference to doom 2 before, "I'm too young to die", with an added explanation of the game mode next to it.

It would definitely be very personal for this game and make it stand out from the rest of games with "easy, normal, veteran, brutal" etc.

A personal name that fits the PZ "theme" with a detailed description would be the best if you ask me.

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BEGINNER - If you're a new player, start here. Trust us, this game is brutal. Don't get cocky. Find your feet here or stress and humiliation will ensue. Etc.

SANDBOX - For the intermediate player. Choose from presets, or customize every aspect of your game to your skill level or playing preferences. Etc.

SURVIVAL - The true, brutal and bloodthirsty Zomboid survival challenge. It takes no prisoners, so don't expect to survive for long. How many days can you last?

LAST STAND - Blah last stand blah. Quick dose of BAM zombies everywhere eek.

 

...

We then make the SURVIVAL survival time on death specifically say 'ON SURVIVAL MODE' to make it clear (perhaps adding a check for expected checksums to ascertain if the files have been modded, and reporting that. As such giving us back our survival time competition that was lost as the game's difficulty waned. Also we make survival mode force a new game world on each new game. Each game starts at day dot, and you can't stack multiple characters on a single world. It's a true competitive game mode again, as it's always an equal footing start point.

Thoughts?

 

I think the difficulty layouts are fine, and I'm liking the purist survival mode! No mods, use checksums, have leaderboards!

 

In addition to the text description, I'd also include a small example screenshot to show what you're talking about. Not a whole screen thing, just a small area that changes picture based on the option selected.

BEGINNER: Have a picture of a character with a shotgun, in a house with fully stocked shelves and a single zombie

SANDBOX: Character with an axe, in a house with half-empty shelves and a few zombies

SURVIVAL: Character with a spoon, in a house with bare, blood-spattered shelves, broken windows, broken door, being overrun with zombies

LAST STAND: I have no idea, I don't play last stand. :)

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I honestly think Sandbox should be split into it's own category. Then you would have something like.

 

-----

Sandbox checkbox

Beginner (or Casual)

Sandbox list of options

Survival (default experience)

 

Hardcore (or any higher difficulty than the default experience)

 

-----

 

Selecting the sandbox checkbox would let you tweak with the presets to adjust to your liking. Pretty much like the proper zombies checkbox does.

 

Also in my opinion Last Stand is it's own gamemode separate from the survival gamemode and I would place in another form or menu like if it were some kind of extra (which coincidentally it is :D).

 

About the problem of people diving into the normal difficulty I would simply add a pop up the first time saying something like "Hey, it seems like this is your first game! Project Zomboid is a very unforgiving zombie apocalypse survival game and we REALLY recommend playing your first game on the Casual difficulty to learn the ropes." with a "don't ask me again" checkbox.

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The best suggestion to rename the difficulty levels is x days in. Beginner or casual have the exact same negative connotations in german (I am a native german speaker) and should be avoided at all costs. Just add some text to the different game modes and you are set. Many people don't like too much grinding and you can deter them by from choosing 8 months in or whatever it will finally be called from stating that there will be a fair amount of it in.

 

On the other hand everyone likes a good story, so I expect people to go for that game mode first. That is the right place for some tutorial and lower difficulty level.

 

Another source of frustration is the lack of a wiki with all the recipes and no ingame map. I don't know if it's a legal issue but a link to the map will be of great help. Please add a warning that this will spoil the experience, because you won't be exploring the world on your own. A link to a complete wiki is very much needed, or people will just rage quit.

I recently bought "The Guild 2 Renaissance" and had to download a demo, because the demo had a tutorial, which the stand-alone expansion lacked. I didn't like that either.

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The best suggestion to rename the difficulty levels is x days in. Beginner or casual have the exact same negative connotations in german (I am a native german speaker) and should be avoided at all costs. Just add some text to the different game modes and you are set. Many people don't like too much grinding and you can deter them by from choosing 8 months in or whatever it will finally be called from stating that there will be a fair amount of it in.

 

On the other hand everyone likes a good story, so I expect people to go for that game mode first. That is the right place for some tutorial and lower difficulty level.

 

Another source of frustration is the lack of a wiki with all the recipes and no ingame map. I don't know if it's a legal issue but a link to the map will be of great help. Please add a warning that this will spoil the experience, because you won't be exploring the world on your own. A link to a complete wiki is very much needed, or people will just rage quit.

I recently bought "The Guild 2 Renaissance" and had to download a demo, because the demo had a tutorial, which the stand-alone expansion lacked. I didn't like that either.

 

We dont have NPCs yet, so no idea of how to make the tutorial feel interactive.

 

Like K&B kinda taught me how to make soup, use a hammer to barricade, kill zombie and cook and learn not to set the house on fire, after that you were on your own, which i liked.

 

But now you have way more features than we used to, so now you have to teach a player how to open windows, how swing correctly, how you can make all kinds of food, campfires, farming, "hunting" or trapping, carpentery, fishing, ect.

 

I would like to see (or maybe do if the right tools are realsed when NPCs go out) a story of a farmer with his friend or son trying to survive a month into the game, a story that teaches you the outdoors survival part of the game, like it gives you the basics of farming, trapping, and carpentery cause you need rain barrels, stuff like that,

 

Meanwhile K&B gives you the tutorial of how to survive in the urban area for a while?

After the tutorial is over, the story progresses and difficulty steps up like the tech build.

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NEW PLAYER - If this is one of your first playthroughs. Meant to help you learn the ropes before said ropes twist around your neck and suck the life out of you.
SANDBOX - Fully customizable to personal taste.
HARDCORE - The true, brutal and bloodthirsty Zomboid survival challenge. It takes no prisoners, so don't expect to survive for long. How many days can you last?
LAST STAND - Blah last stand blah. Quick dose of BAM zombies everywhere eek.

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NEW PLAYER - If this is one of your first playthroughs. Meant to help you learn the ropes before said ropes twist around your neck and suck the life out of you.

SANDBOX - Fully customizable to personal taste.

HARDCORE - The true, brutal and bloodthirsty Zomboid survival challenge. It takes no prisoners, so don't expect to survive for long. How many days can you last?

LAST STAND - Blah last stand blah. Quick dose of BAM zombies everywhere eek.

 

People when it comes to games they think they are hot shit, so they jump right into the hardcore shit and they get rekt by X game.

So two things either happens, they accept their error and go to the New Player thingy or they go and complain in the fourms about how the game is bullshit artificial difficulty and that is the worst game ever.

 

That is why the devs need to think of a original name where the players are not going to be "a tutorial? who needs that shit lol" or "who needs tooltips? i can figure it out"

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NEW PLAYER - If this is one of your first playthroughs. Meant to help you learn the ropes before said ropes twist around your neck and suck the life out of you.

SANDBOX - Fully customizable to personal taste.

HARDCORE - The true, brutal and bloodthirsty Zomboid survival challenge. It takes no prisoners, so don't expect to survive for long. How many days can you last?

LAST STAND - Blah last stand blah. Quick dose of BAM zombies everywhere eek.

 

People when it comes to games they think they are hot shit, so they jump right into the hardcore shit and they get rekt by X game.

So two things either happens, they accept their error and go to the New Player thingy or they go and complain in the fourms about how the game is bullshit artificial difficulty and that is the worst game ever.

 

That is why the devs need to think of a original name where the players are not going to be "a tutorial? who needs that shit lol" or "who needs tooltips? i can figure it out"

 

 

That's pretty much me, except when I'm being ripped apart by zombies I go 'well at least I learned something'

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