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Some suggestions from a survivalist.


YehudiRoman

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Well, I apologize for doubling this up. I sent you guys an email then noticed the forum. I guess if I post in both places I'll be more certain that you'll get the information.

 

I'm going to get my qualifications for my criticisms out of the way.

I'm a wilderness survivalist. I can survive nearly indefinitely in the wilderness (and that will be indefinite by this time next year). I know about building shelters, the limits of the human body, making water safe to drink and food safe to eat, hunting, snaring, fishing, gardening, foraging, etc.

I've been trained in hand-to-hand combat, knife combat as well as gun combat by an ex-French Foreign Legionnaire. (Specific martial art is Krav Maga, Israeli special forces hand-to-hand combat.)

I've downloaded the demo and read the tutorial. During that time, these are the issues I came across.

1. In real life, you don't make an attack and then go back to your original position. This is true of both the trained and untrained. You instead reverse your previous attack or use the momentum from your previous attack to move into a new one. This allows you to attack faster, more often. A charge up, therefore, is nowhere near realistic. If you watch any bar fight, most untrained people will alternative their punches; left, right, left right. This only doesn't happen if they are holding one arm up to try to block. Which probably isn't going to happen with zombies unless you've armoured up your forearm.

2. There is no such thing as a charged swing. Sure there is a difference between slapping and hitting someone; but a charged swing does not exist. Attack damage is very simple. The speed and the weight behind it. That's about it (at least, when facing something without pressure points and major weak spots, such as a zombie; this is quite different for a human being). So a running attack will do more damage than a standing attack. If you're using a weapon, starting from farther back and having more distance to swing and put in power will do more damage than just bopping an enemy on the head. An attack from the waist will do more damage than swinging just your arms. Regardless, these are issues of skill. There is no "charging up" an attack. Poor mechanic and horrifyingly unrealistic.

3. More useful than a powerful swing will be a precision strike to the head. Even if the zombie ignores pain and its own demise, this is still the most destabilizing area of the body as the brain (courtesy of the fact that destruction kills the zombie) is still a weak point.

4. I noticed thirst onset was very rapid. The human body can survive three days without water prior to kidney damage occurring. Any survivalist can tell you that you will remain lucid and able to function fine for about 48 hours without water. As long as one tries to avoid exertion, this can be pushed slightly (as sweat will increase water loss). The more exertion, the less time you have before kidney damage occurs and you will likely lose consciousness. Exertion will also decrease the time you can stay lucid for.

5. Hunger onset was also very rapid. During tense situations, the brain naturally suppresses the hunger impulses. It takes three days without food before starvation sets in and your body begins to lose strength as it breaks down its fat and muscle reserves. From there, it takes an additional 18 days before your body starts to shut down. The rapid onset of both hunger and thirst in such tense situations is EXTREMELY unrealistic.

6. While cooking food does decrease the risk of disease and parasites (and warm food boosts your morale in bad situations), it is NOT more nutritious than raw food. Cooked food is partially broken down and loses many of its nutrients. From a purely hunger and nutrition standpoint, raw food is better for you than cooked food, as you need to eat more cooked food to gain the same nutrient levels. Risk of disease and parasites is dependent upon their prevalence in the local wildlife population.

7. Power stations require constant regulation in order to maintain proper power generation levels. The whole reason that we get a steady flow of electricity is because the strain on the grid is constantly monitored and power production increased and decreased to meet the requirements. If it is the zombie apocalypse, the power grid will fail almost immediately. The electrical stations will either run too low and you can't get power OR they will run so hot as appliance usage goes down that anything you hook up will instantly fry. Starting with electricity and being surrounded by zombies is ridiculous unless your premise is that you are at ground zero (in which case it would be unrealistic for an average Joe to have survived to this point). (I've also taken some college level electrical courses.)

8. On that note, an average Joe would not be likely to have survived to this point alone. Numerous simulations have been run on the end of Western civilization. The people with the highest chances of living are not average Joes. Not by any long shot. They are people with skills. Wilderness survivalists, preppers (not the crazy doomsday preppers, just normal ones with a few weeks to a few months stock of food, clean water, water purifiers, ammunition, etc. for natural disasters), ex-military, PMCs and the like (okay... probably the doomsday preppers, too) are going to make up probably about half of all survivors. They will also be the ones in charge as society starts to come back together. If you are going with the person playing an average Joe instead of at least some knowledge, they will most likely only survive due to the charity of someone more skilled than them. There is next to nil chance that they would survive the collapse alone and this start is unrealistic unless you have a plausible reason for it.

9. Bags do not cause you to carry more because of weight; they cause you to carry more because of space (please correct me if I'm reading what the tutorial has said wrong). You can carry a can in your hand, but you can carry multiple cans in a doubled up plastic bag. Backpacks do similar. Large, touring backpacks that you find at wilderness/camping stores for going on long backcountry trips and hiking trips displace the weight from your shoulders to your hips. At no point is your maximum carrying capacity changed. Physically, you cannot carry more weight. These tools simply make it easier to get to your maximum carry load by providing places to put objects and displace the load to the most efficient parts of the body to carry weight.

That's just what I've noticed so far, but I'll do a clean start of the demo and play for a bit, see if there is anything else to note.

And before the criticisms of "dur hur, if u so badass why you playing games" BS comes about...

Many survivalists can be quite nerdy. I participate in a practice group with others that play/ed pen and paper role playing games such as Dungeons and Dragons. Stereotypes do exist for a reason, but there is also extensive overlap. Many people in the military are closet nerds, for instance. Several of my military friends, infantry as well as other trades, play the Warhammer and Warhammer 40k tabletop wargames.

 

I myself spend time on video games when I'm not in the outdoors or at combat practice in order to pass the time.

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Also, bicycles. Everyone seems to forget their existence in all SHTF scenarios. Which is ridiculous. Bicycles can be loaded with saddlebags to carry more gear (the large hiking backpacks do not displace weight when you sitting on a bicycle) and they can also be rigged with a hitch to pull small trailers. Significantly faster than moving on foot, quiet and can carry a lot of gear. With a mountain bike and just the saddlebags, you can still use it for transportation in the wilderness.

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I suspect the "Charged swing" is simply the devs way of simulating how much weight and speed you're putting into your swing. When you've swung and carved through flesh a few times you start tiring, can't swing at the same speed/weight you did with your initial attack, fairly close to what'd happen in the real world. I see no problems with that feature at all.

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some interesting points for sure. bikes will be along..."soon"

 

safe to say they have indeed taken a few liberties in the name of game play, but try to remember the stage of development the game is in. what we play now, in Build 29.3 is not necessarily the same as what we will be playing when V1.0 arrives...."Soon"ish

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I suspect the "Charged swing" is simply the devs way of simulating how much weight and speed you're putting into your swing. When you've swung and carved through flesh a few times you start tiring, can't swing at the same speed/weight you did with your initial attack, fairly close to what'd happen in the real world. I see no problems with that feature at all.

Fair enough.

 

I have a point on sleep and exhaustion.

 

A human is pretty much capable of sleeping anywhere. I was struggling to figure out how to get rest when I found this: http://pzwiki.net/wiki/Sleep

If this is the current mechanic, this is one that I'd recommend revising ASAP.

 

I've slept on concrete floors, grass, dirt... It's not difficult to get sleep when you need it and are tired. You do not need deep sleep. Nor do you even need sleep every day. It takes about three days without sleep before you hallucinate and are at risk of collapsing from exhaustion. As long as you are physically active, you can go about 36 hours without sleep without suffering any noticeable side effects. Even without sleep to the point where you start hallucinating, your strength will not be affected. It can take nearly a week to be so tired that you will pass out from exhaustion while physically active.

 

That being said, a makeshift bed is one of the easiest items you can ever make.

I noticed pine trees everywhere. The most basic bed every survivalist knows how to make is to simply take soft pine bows and... make a bed. It smells good and calms your nerves. You do not need a pillow, although you can create a makeshift one with a thicker pile of pine bows. (Makeshift pillows can be made out of anything soft stacked up, including clothing.) Two armfuls of pine bows collected from a few trees will suffice. This is faster with a knife, but the soft parts of the branches that you want to use are often weak enough to rip off with your bare hands. Getting enough branches, even without a knife, would take no longer than 20 minutes. You need about two armfuls.

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Thanks for the feedback! A couple of points, though.

 

It's actually quite untrue that you don't "charge" swings. You do when you're holding long weapons. Having a longer range of motion (by "charging" it, aka moving it back behind you a bit) does indeed let you move the weapon faster and put more force behind it. There's a reason baseball players have a long, wide swing not a short, jagged one. It may be a tiny bit more pronounced in game, but that's what they're going for.

 

Regarding combat, swinging and animations, it's largely been limited in the past due to time budget. Animations take a long time and they simply hadn't gotten there yet. A full combat overhaul is planned and should now be much more possible with another animator temporarily on board.

 

Neither hunger nor thirst say "dying of hunger/thirst." Moodles just represent how your character is feeling. People start feeling hungry or thirsty in hours and minutes, not days.

 

Definitely agree about the food cooking.

 

The power goes out after a short period of time, a few days to a month at most. I've actually done some work at a power plant, a lot of it is automated. They can work for quite a while with no human interaction, though that's obviously not optimal. The game does a very good, accurate representation of this.

 

I don't really think you're qualified to say who would and wouldn't survive in this situation. It's completely hypothetical, and survivalist or not there's no one on earth who could predict how an event like this would play out. Further, if even one "average" person was alive a few days/weeks into this scenario... your point is invalid. You're playing as that one person, if that's what you need to make yourself view this as "realistic." But truth be told, simply by locking the door and staying inside if you had a decent house, a 90 year old with two hip replacements could survive a week in this situation. Just eat the food in the house and don't move around too much. The game starts you somewhat relatively close to the beginning of the scenario, so I don't really think there's anything wrong with the way it's presented at all and find your criticism a bit puzzling.

 

"Weight" in game is a hyrbrid of space and actual weight. That's how the bags are simulated- just works better to keep it simple. Some concessions do have to be made for gameplay.

 

Bicycles have been planned since day one. They weren't forgotten, they just haven't been implemented yet.

 

The devs always like to hear criticism and helpful suggestions, but do please keep in mind it's still an early access game and it's still a game in general.


Sleeping anywhere is something I've wanted for a long time, hopefully we'll see that soon.

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It's actually quite untrue that you don't "charge" swings. You do when you're holding long weapons. Having a longer range of motion (by "charging" it, aka moving it back behind you a bit) does indeed let you move the weapon faster and put more force behind it. There's a reason baseball players have a long, wide swing not a short, jagged one. It may be a tiny bit more pronounced in game, but that's what they're going for.

 

Yes, someone else covered what you were going for. It seems that I mostly take issue with the terminology used.

 

 

 

Neither hunger nor thirst say "dying of hunger/thirst." Moodles just represent how your character is feeling. People start feeling hungry or thirsty in hours and minutes, not days.

 

I still have to take issue with this. As stated, in a situation such as this, your mind naturally suppresses your hunger and even your thirst. When I'm out in the bush, I have to actively remind myself to eat, or I won't. That's not even in a dangerous situation, that's just an everyday where I'm busy and keeping myself focused on work for making the camp livable, setting up snares, keeping an eye out for potential dangers, etc. In an extreme situation such as this, it would be some time before you would notice that you were hungry, potentially even more than a day. This is completely natural response as your subconscious and unconscious mind prioritizes survival needs.

 

 

 

The power goes out after a short period of time, a few days to a month at most. I've actually done some work at a power plant, a lot of it is automated. They can work for quite a while with no human interaction, though that's obviously not optimal. The game does a very good, accurate representation of this.

I did not know this, thank you for the information.

 

 

 

I don't really think you're qualified to say who would and wouldn't survive in this situation. It's completely hypothetical, and survivalist or not there's no one on earth who could predict how an event like this would play out.

 

People more qualified than me have considered these scenarios, though and I've read their research. There are people that actively prepare for bugging out and/or long term survival, including dealing with military invasion, martial law, natural disasters, etc.

 

 

 

Further, if even one "average" person was alive a few days/weeks into this scenario... your point is invalid. You're playing as that one person, if that's what you need to make yourself view this as "realistic." But truth be told, simply by locking the door and staying inside if you had a decent house, a 90 year old with two hip replacements could survive a week in this situation. Just eat the food in the house and don't move around too much. The game starts you somewhat relatively close to the beginning of the scenario, so I don't really think there's anything wrong with the way it's presented at all and find your criticism a bit puzzling.

Yes, as I stated, some average Joes will survive. If your premise is that this is fairly immediately afterwards, then yes, even an average person locked away will survive to that point. However, the point about people with skills and preparation being the majority of survivors should still be kept in mind. If not for the player, then for NPCs in future releases. A person with three months worth of food and water in a hidden room in the basement that barricaded himself in is going to be fine for a long time, especially with this type of scenario and slower moving zombie. One with a bug out plan and wilderness survival skills is not someone that's going to be worried about dying any time soon. People with survival and combat skills are the ones most likely to survive, no matter how you look at it.

Something else to consider on this front; I have an uncle in British Columbia, Canada, that works in forestry. While he was marking out areas for logging this summer, he had to kick half a dozen squatters out of their cabins. Wilderness squatters are more common than many people realise. If there's a forest more than a couple of square kilometres that isn't logged, there's probably a good chance you'll find a squatter in it. The city I live, there was forests inside the city where homeless people used to live before the forests were cut down to make way for housing 20-30 years ago. Back in BC, I have a cousin that was hiking just outside of a town surrounded by wilderness. He and his friend ran across an entire community of squatters living in abandoned machinery. You wouldn't even know they were there from the air and you would have no idea how to find the place unless you were shown or someone took you there. People such as this would be relatively safe from zombies. Some might not even ever realise that anything had happened.

 

 

 

"Weight" in game is a hyrbrid of space and actual weight. That's how the bags are simulated- just works better to keep it simple. Some concessions do have to be made for gameplay.

Fair enough.

 

 

 

The devs always like to hear criticism and helpful suggestions, but do please keep in mind it's still an early access game and it's still a game in general.

Just some notes I've made. I have never purchased a survival game because I've failed to find one that I find satisfactory. I'm hoping yours will be different, as you claim to be aiming for realistic survival.

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Regarding hunger and thirst... I'm still going to have to say "no." First of all, I'm a survivalist/hunter as well; I don't feel the need to brag about my qualifications, but the tl;dr is unless you are actively producing adrenaline you're still hungry or thirsty. It's very nice for you if you don't feel that way, but people get hungry and thirsty naturally, especially people who have been used to 3 meals a day for their entire lives.

Edit: And sorry if I'm coming off blunt here, but I've had a pretty rough night and you're just wrong about this. When I was lost in the middle of winter out in the wilderness and thought I was going to die of exposure... I remember being thirsty quite clearly. I'm not going to pretend like being a survivalist makes me some macho super hero. You still feel and remember every little pain and discomfort in situations like this.

To be clear, I'm not accusing you of bragging; I'm just saying I'm not going to spen time touting my qualifications as it doesn't actually add to the discussion.

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I don't feel the need to brag about my qualifications

I was simply making a point as to where my knowledge is coming from, not bragging. I could say a hell of a lot more about this if I wanted to brag.

 

 

 

unless you are actively producing adrenaline you're still hungry or thirsty. It's very nice for you if you don't feel that way, but people get hungry and thirsty naturally, especially people who have been used to 3 meals a day for their entire lives.

You appear to be the exception to the rule in my experience, then. I actively practice with other survivalists who have found the same thing as I; that hunger and thirst quickly become lower priorities and you don't feel them to the same extent as you do in other situations. I even speak to a man that owns an off grid property, powered by solar panels and battery stations. When he's working on things vital to ensuring that he has food, water, etc., his hunger and thirst also dissipate.

Hunger obviously dissipates more than thirst, but you get the picture.

 

 

 

Edit: And sorry if I'm coming off blunt here, but I've had a pretty rough night and you're just wrong about this. When I was lost in the middle of winter out in the wilderness and thought I was going to die of exposure... I remember being thirsty quite clearly. I'm not going to pretend like being a survivalist makes me some macho super hero. You still feel and remember every little pain and discomfort in situations like this.

And how long until you were feeling thirsty? A few minutes? A few hours? Or was it after nearly a full day of panic and heavy exertion?

 

I went on a trip deliberately with not enough water. I was rationing it and after a time I ran out entirely. No food and no water for some time. I had no hunger even though I went nearly two days without food (no water for digestion means no eating) and I didn't start actually feeling thirsty until I hit 12 hours without taking a sip. Other things took priority and the feelings were suppressed. I'm used to getting three squares a day as well. And yet, survival taking priority, hunger and thirst were suppressed. This is even while taking a medication that caused further dehydration, meaning I was even more dehydrated than one would normally expect and STILL not feeling thirsty.

Our experiences seem to be completely different on this, but I also know other survivalists that have had similar experiences as I have.

 

As for your bluntness, I'm not so weak that some words on a screen hurt me. I'm puzzled by how adversarial you've been and unwillingness to listen to others with similar training and experience. But if you want further, the one who trained me in combat had... experiences... where he had to go through far worse. Combat (and a zombie apocalypse IS combat) suppresses hunger and thirst feelings even further. They are distractions to more immediate issues.

 

So I wouldn't say I'm wrong so much as there appears to be differing experiences for different people, you being the very first I've run into that hasn't had the same experiences I have. Perhaps that is due to the fact that I don't participate in any online communities with other survivalists and the small sampling of perhaps 8 others that I practice with is some sort of exception, but I find that unlikely.

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It's not really charging, anyway: it's just what we call the aiming system. The longer you charge, the better your attack. It's effectively just a concentration meter without a reticule.

Animations returning to some default state is just the way games tend to be (I'm sure there are exceptions out there): much simpler to animate.

Thirst/hunger will be a customizable option in sandbox in the near future. However, it's always going to differ from person to person. I get thirsty every couple of hours and especially after bursts of physical activity, for example. If you don't then well . . . think of it as "the character I'm playing does."

Though I'll actively disagree with this notion:

However, the point about people with skills and preparation being the majority of survivors should still be kept in mind.

That's a nice fantasy (the typical "If I prepare, I'll be the one to survive while the others don't!") but I have a feeling it doesn't pan out in practice, when something as random as illness decimates a population.

Not that there are (or are likely to be) any examples of this.

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May I just point out that I feel you guys are needlessly abrasive towards this suggestion and discussion. Also your reactions aren't in a official capacity and that isn't particularly clear to new forum users.

Maybe you should use the report function and specifically mention what and whom you're referring to.

You've been here long enough to know to do this . . .

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Right, then. Appears yet another game that will turn into a disappointment. Oh well. I shall not bother you again.

 

I'll point out that the game is highly moddable and if there's a feature where you don't quite fully agree with the devs, you can always mod it in or wait for a mod. One feature shouldn't be a tipping point if a game's good or shit, however way you look at it.

 

I'm sure that in time we'll get to a point where an extremely realistic survivalist mod will appear. (and I think it could even be a community effort since there are so many knowledgeable people around.) The game atm has to make some concessions with reality to make gameplay more approachable.

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It would seem the one who created this topic has a "' my way or the highway" approach. With hunger and thirst, just cause one guy, don't "feel hungry/ thirsty" don't mean I won't, or who ever. That's a total set if variables that no one can assume. Just the things we think and tell ourselfs change the outcome of a situations greatly. Mentally strong as a powerful effects all on its own.

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