RELEASED: Build 30.12

[Wolfen]

 

Maybe there could be an item that worked against exhaustion like an engery bar/drink/pill that could give you a short burst of stamina. of course you could in theory keep using the items and totally defeat the purpose of exhaustion so maybe have some sort of kickback of using to many like passing out instantly when you stop taking them (like what happens when you go on a coffee binge) or maybe you become addicted to them and you must depend on them to stay awake for some time until you get over the addiction.

Yep we're considering various ways to combat exhaustion as a quick fix but they would need to be balanced so you could only take it so far.

 

 

Maybe you could do it like this

 

For example you incur 100 exhaustion points

80 of that would be hard points that couldn't be regained except by sleeping and or taking it easy

while 20 would be soft points that could be regained by things like chocolate or energy drinks

 

Although this would require a bar so as to communicate this to the player, possibly in the health panel?

 

 

Can't really think of anything that works like that in real life. Other than pure adrenaline, none of the energy bar/Gatorade/energy drink type stuff helps in the short term at all (and the long term impact is dubious at best).

For sleepiness, sure, that would make sense.

 

In WWII American soldiers were sometimes given thick slabs of chocolate for energy that were packed with sugar, protein and caffeine to keep them awake, alert and energized (especially for European winters as their bodies would require energy just to warm themselves up)

 

Sugar has a purpose other than getting people fat and tasting good.

[EnigmaGrey]

Yes, but caffeine is a valid stimulant . . . sugar isn't.

[Rathlord]

Again, there's a difference between fighting off sleepiness and being worn out. Your body can't instantly repair torn muscle (which happens when working hard for long periods of time) no matter what stimulants you pump it with.

[lemmy101]

Again, there's a difference between fighting off sleepiness and being worn out. Your body can't instantly repair torn muscle (which happens when working hard for long periods of time) no matter what stimulants you pump it with.

Yep again tho we want to balance realism for gameplay. People don't ACTUALLY get sick if they are out in the rain too long, etc, and people don't ACTUALLY become a better shot by popping some beta-blockers, or ACTUALLY suddenly stop feeling sad because they popped some anti-depressants 2 minutes ago. There is a certain level of gamefication that's allowed for the sake of balancing a fun game, and I think energy drinks having a balanced and not OP effect on giving you that extra push if required is a nice thing for gameplay.

i think we walk the realism line quite well and are still leaps and bounds ahead of most other games in that regard, but we need to consider more traditional game design paradigms despite this philosophy. Mario style powerups it maybe, but subtley enough and with enough kinda 'that makes sense'ness about them to justify it.

I don't think drinking an energy drink and slightly subduing your physical exhaustion is too far out the realms of logical realism to cause an issue in our game world, any more than sawing three perfect planks out of a log from a thin conifer tree trunk with a normal hand saw is

We need to provide logical buffs and debuffs to any stat we can to provide the RPG experience alongside the sim experience.

[Wolfen]

Yes, but caffeine is a valid stimulant . . . sugar isn't.

 

 

Sugar is digested quicker and can be used for energy relatively quickly

 

 

============================

Source:

http://www.myfooddiary.com/Resources/nutrient_facts/nutrient_sugar.asp

 

How is sugar used by the body?

Sugar gives the body energy.  Actually, it is the only source of energy for the brain and red blood cells.  Each gram of sugar contains 4 calories.  Unlike complex carbohydrates, sugars are digested quickly and are easily broken down into glucose, which is then used for energy.  If a lot of sugar is eaten at one time, blood sugar levels can spike, which can increase the risk for developing diabetes.

=============================

 

Though it should be said for regular folk just jogging around the part for a couple minutes a day, water is better

[GameBoy357]

Update 30.7 - Did Zombie AI change? I am able to attract a horde with very little effort now and I think I'm scared.

[Wolfen]

[nvm misunderstood quote]

[Dkeegs]

yeah I can live with the exhaustion system (save for tweaking to the resting system) if the herds were nerfed a bit, it's like one sees me and they all come barreling at me. 

[deprav]

Thought for a tweak for the new zombies-luring-each-other feature :

Right now when a large event happens (such as a house alarm), the massive group that comes to form then become a swarm of constant weird movements, zombies luring each other on very small distances which looks kinda silly. It kinda looks like a metal concert mosh pit more than a dead horde

What about changing it so zombies do not lure each other at very close distance ? since zombies being real close to each other would actually hear the same noise that a player would make and move toward it on their own, but that would prevent the chain reaction of massive hordes attracting itself.
But if a zombie actually gets lured by the player and walks away from the nearby zombies and its mates didn't, as soon as the zombie leaves the "dead lure-radius", those passive zombies would start being interested in what that the single zombie is doing and start following it.

[ComradeSidorenko]

I'd just like to point out that carpentry is very, very annoying with the new exhaustion system.

I've got a fully maxed out carpentry skill, I chop down two trees (which is 10 axe swings) and I'm instantly highly exerted. I pick up two or three logs and haul them across the street, saw them into planks, the exertion lingers and I start getting sleepy just from hauling the logs across the street and sawing them into planks?

 

I really don't like that. Nobody wakes up at 8 AM, chops down two trees, saws some planks and then is so tired 4 hours later that they are in danger of passing out because of exhaustion.

 

The way the current exhaustion system works makes carpentry and fortifying very, very annoying...

 

To end on a high note though, I appreciate the update and I have to say I really like the new zombie behaviour and the new shaders!

[Dkeegs]

hey I know I'm jumping the gun here but I have an idea for NPC's, you know all of those personal hygiene items you find, maybe you could use those to spruce yourself up before you try and talk an NPC into joining your group or trading. The reasoning is that the better you look in the apocalypse the more people will trust you or think you have it better off than them. Am I being stupid?  

[Rathlord]

yeah I can live with the exhaustion system (save for tweaking to the resting system) if the herds were nerfed a bit, it's like one sees me and they all come barreling at me. 

 

That's the idea, though =\

[syfy]

hey I know I'm jumping the gun here but I have an idea for NPC's, you know all of those personal hygiene items you find, maybe you could use those to spruce yourself up before you try and talk an NPC into joining your group or trading. The reasoning is that the better you look in the apocalypse the more people will trust you or think you have it better off than them. Am I being stupid?  

no, not stupid. but the Devs have confirmed there will not be Hygiene in the game.

[Dkeegs]

 

yeah I can live with the exhaustion system (save for tweaking to the resting system) if the herds were nerfed a bit, it's like one sees me and they all come barreling at me. 

 

That's the idea, though =\

 

Yeah i guess you right but maybe you could expand your stamina somehow, eating right, working yourself to the max everyday. does that sound good?

[Rathlord]

I really don't like that. Nobody wakes up at 8 AM, chops down two trees, saws some planks and then is so tired 4 hours later that they are in danger of passing out because of exhaustion.

 

As someone who has cleared several acres of heavy tree growth... that's exactly how it works. While I agree that the impact on "sleepiness" doesn't need to be terribly pronounced, chopping down trees and then sawing logs out of them is exhausting work. It takes hours to saw a single tree into planks by hand, if not days. For the sake of gameplay I understand not making it take that long, but making balance heavy, exhausting labor with less labor intensive things (like training skill books, cooking, and looting) is something healthy and positive for the game imo.

[Dkeegs]

 

yeah I can live with the exhaustion system (save for tweaking to the resting system) if the herds were nerfed a bit, it's like one sees me and they all come barreling at me. 

 

That's the idea, though =\

 

Yeah i guess you right but maybe you could expand your stamina somehow to deal with the herds, eating right, working yourself to the max everyday. does that sound good? 

[Rathlord]

 

 

yeah I can live with the exhaustion system (save for tweaking to the resting system) if the herds were nerfed a bit, it's like one sees me and they all come barreling at me. 

 

That's the idea, though =\

 

Yeah i guess you right but maybe you could expand your stamina somehow, eating right, working yourself to the max everyday. does that sound good?

 

 

I think that's planned or already in, so that's good

[lemmy101]

I'd just like to point out that carpentry is very, very annoying with the new exhaustion system.

I've got a fully maxed out carpentry skill, I chop down two trees (which is 10 axe swings) and I'm instantly highly exerted.

This is a bug if its the case.

[Fortport]

[ !Wall of text! ]

I can't quite play the new version until a few hours from now, but I have been reading up about the endurance system. I totally agree that backing off over and over pointlessly breaks up the pacing, but..

Well, with the new system, you're balancing that I see! I just want to know if it holds up well with your well of energy. Think of it this way: you can still get exhausted after facing so many zombies at once, in one fight.. right? Taking on eight zombies could still be a challenge, a daunting one; I cannot imagine a survivor kiting that many zombies around, beating them all down without getting winded, and then suddenly beginning to get tired from exhaustion hours later.

Maybe there could be temporary stamina, and then long-term? Use up your temporary stamina, and when you recover, that counts against your long-term energy?

As a demonstration, let's say we kill eight zombies in the morning. The last one goes down, but now you're out of breath.. some heard the scuffle, and are coming your way. You have to run off and hide because your stamina is low. Fighting them now would be suicide, because you're too slow to take on another horde. You use the remainder of your strength to quickly walk off and escape. Now you're back home. It's noon, and your body's a little bit tired. You've rested, you're not sleepy.. but if you took on eight more zombies, you would get more tired by the time you knocked down the fifth or sixth! And so on!

So basically, the more stamina you use, the less you have when you recover! Not only that, but you get less vigorous when you're ready again. After taking on a little horde and resting up, your strikes don't have that much oomph. Your running isn't as quick.

This might make firearms good for people who are overweight, or don't want to put up with fighting using stamina. As it stands, I think guns could use a little more affection; they're impractical and rare, with the system before. Melee is too simple and easy, while firearms are at the other end of the spectrum. Just, why bother?

It also makes stealth a more viable option, when it's more fleshed out! Sneaking becomes the way to go, as it should be.  I don't think anybody runs out and kills fifty zombies with a bat, in one day, without getting scratched, bitten, or maimed. Especially if he took them all on in chunks, rather than singling out the ones he needed to get rid of.

I may have slipped off the main point a little bit, but I still think this adds up to it. Just my thoughts.

[NewBornpt]

I can't quite play the new version until a few hours from now, but I have been reading up about the endurance system. I totally agree that backing off over and over pointlessly breaks up the pacing, but..

Well, with the new system, you're balancing that I see! I just want to know if it holds up well with your well of energy. Think of it this way: you should still get exhausted after facing so many zombies at once, in one fight.. right? Taking on eight zombies should still be a challenge, a daunting one. I cannot imagine a survivor kiting that many zombies around, beating them all down without getting winded, and then suddenly beginning to collapse from exhaustion hours later.

Maybe there could be a temporary stamina, and then long-term? Use up your temporary stamina, and when you recover, that counts against your long-term energy?

As a demonstration, let's say we kill eight zombies in the morning. The last one goes down, but now you're out of breath.. some heard the scuffle, and are coming your way. You have to run off and hide because your stamina is low. Fighting them now would be suicide, because you're too slow to take on another horde. You use the remainder of your strength to quickly walk off and escape. Now you're back home. It's noon, and your body's a little bit tired. You're not sleepy, but if you took on eight more zombies, you would get more tired by the time you knocked down the fourth or fifth. And so on!

So basically, the more stamina you use, the less you have when you recover! Not only that, but you get less vigorous when you're ready again. After taking on a small horde and resting up, your blows are softer. Keep it up, and it gets worse, to the point that you can't walk or run as quickly.

How about that?

 

I agree with that... right now the stamina is almost unplayable... I just woke up ingame at 7am... chopped 3 trees and killed 3 zombies and my character couldnt run... and i went to sleep again more 9 hours at about 12h...that means i slept like almost 16 hours from 22pm to 20pm in the next day... thats crazy XD

 

I see you what you talking Fortport and i agree... Devs should imagine stamina like this bar in this MMA game 

  ... the more stamina u depleete, the less stamina youll have to recover. So you could run for a long time and thats it, or you could run LOOOONGER but making small rest in the way just like the previus stamina worked in other Builds of PZ

Does the stamina increase over time ... like our character becomes stronger and fit???

[Wolfen]

 

I can't quite play the new version until a few hours from now, but I have been reading up about the endurance system. I totally agree that backing off over and over pointlessly breaks up the pacing, but..

Well, with the new system, you're balancing that I see! I just want to know if it holds up well with your well of energy. Think of it this way: you should still get exhausted after facing so many zombies at once, in one fight.. right? Taking on eight zombies should still be a challenge, a daunting one. I cannot imagine a survivor kiting that many zombies around, beating them all down without getting winded, and then suddenly beginning to collapse from exhaustion hours later.

Maybe there could be a temporary stamina, and then long-term? Use up your temporary stamina, and when you recover, that counts against your long-term energy?

As a demonstration, let's say we kill eight zombies in the morning. The last one goes down, but now you're out of breath.. some heard the scuffle, and are coming your way. You have to run off and hide because your stamina is low. Fighting them now would be suicide, because you're too slow to take on another horde. You use the remainder of your strength to quickly walk off and escape. Now you're back home. It's noon, and your body's a little bit tired. You're not sleepy, but if you took on eight more zombies, you would get more tired by the time you knocked down the fourth or fifth. And so on!

So basically, the more stamina you use, the less you have when you recover! Not only that, but you get less vigorous when you're ready again. After taking on a small horde and resting up, your blows are softer. Keep it up, and it gets worse, to the point that you can't walk or run as quickly.

How about that?

 

I agree with that... right now the stamina is almost unplayable... I just woke up ingame at 7am... chopped 3 trees and killed 3 zombies and my character couldnt run... and i went to sleep again more 9 hours at about 12h...that means i slept like almost 16 hours from 22pm to 20pm in the next day... thats crazy XD

 

Does the stamina increase over time ... like our character becomes stronger and fit???

 

 

If you think that's an unproductive day then you should see what I'm doing with my life

[lemmy101]

I can't quite play the new version until a few hours from now, but I have been reading up about the endurance system. I totally agree that backing off over and over pointlessly breaks up the pacing, but..

Well, with the new system, you're balancing that I see! I just want to know if it holds up well with your well of energy. Think of it this way: you should still get exhausted after facing so many zombies at once, in one fight.. right? Taking on eight zombies should still be a challenge, a daunting one. I cannot imagine a survivor kiting that many zombies around, beating them all down without getting winded, and then suddenly beginning to collapse from exhaustion hours later.

Maybe there could be a temporary stamina, and then long-term? Use up your temporary stamina, and when you recover, that counts against your long-term energy?

As a demonstration, let's say we kill eight zombies in the morning. The last one goes down, but now you're out of breath.. some heard the scuffle, and are coming your way. You have to run off and hide because your stamina is low. Fighting them now would be suicide, because you're too slow to take on another horde. You use the remainder of your strength to quickly walk off and escape. Now you're back home. It's noon, and your body's a little bit tired. You're not sleepy, but if you took on eight more zombies, you would get more tired by the time you knocked down the fourth or fifth. And so on!

So basically, the more stamina you use, the less you have when you recover! Not only that, but you get less vigorous when you're ready again. After taking on a small horde and resting up, your blows are softer. Keep it up, and it gets worse, to the point that you can't walk or run as quickly.

How about that?

I agree with that... right now the stamina is almost unplayable... I just woke up ingame at 7am... chopped 3 trees and killed 3 zombies and my character couldnt run... and i went to sleep again more 9 hours at about 12h...that means i slept like almost 16 hours from 22pm to 20pm in the next day... thats crazy XD

 

Does the stamina increase over time ... like our character becomes stronger and fit???

For the nth time. If you're getting exhausted after chopping 3 trees down, then there is a BUG. This is not working as intended.

You should be able to chop down 10-20 trees before getting exhausted*

*number out my ass. But not 3 trees and 3 zombies.

What we're discussing here is the general system, and the general system doesn't fall over because chopping three trees down and being exhausted sucks, because the entire point of the new endurance system is that it should take a LOT more than it used to to become exhausted.

[Darrow]

Just a quick question,

 

Am I able to run a server with this build with my friend or no? Thanks

[Fortport]

 

 

I can't quite play the new version until a few hours from now, but I have been reading up about the endurance system. I totally agree that backing off over and over pointlessly breaks up the pacing, but..

Well, with the new system, you're balancing that I see! I just want to know if it holds up well with your well of energy. Think of it this way: you should still get exhausted after facing so many zombies at once, in one fight.. right? Taking on eight zombies should still be a challenge, a daunting one. I cannot imagine a survivor kiting that many zombies around, beating them all down without getting winded, and then suddenly beginning to collapse from exhaustion hours later.

Maybe there could be a temporary stamina, and then long-term? Use up your temporary stamina, and when you recover, that counts against your long-term energy?

As a demonstration, let's say we kill eight zombies in the morning. The last one goes down, but now you're out of breath.. some heard the scuffle, and are coming your way. You have to run off and hide because your stamina is low. Fighting them now would be suicide, because you're too slow to take on another horde. You use the remainder of your strength to quickly walk off and escape. Now you're back home. It's noon, and your body's a little bit tired. You're not sleepy, but if you took on eight more zombies, you would get more tired by the time you knocked down the fourth or fifth. And so on!

So basically, the more stamina you use, the less you have when you recover! Not only that, but you get less vigorous when you're ready again. After taking on a small horde and resting up, your blows are softer. Keep it up, and it gets worse, to the point that you can't walk or run as quickly.

How about that?

I agree with that... right now the stamina is almost unplayable... I just woke up ingame at 7am... chopped 3 trees and killed 3 zombies and my character couldnt run... and i went to sleep again more 9 hours at about 12h...that means i slept like almost 16 hours from 22pm to 20pm in the next day... thats crazy XD

 

Does the stamina increase over time ... like our character becomes stronger and fit???

 

For the nth time. If you're getting exhausted after chopping 3 trees down, then there is a BUG. This is not working as intended.

You should be able to chop down 10-20 trees before getting exhausted*

*number out my ass. But not 3 trees and 3 zombies.

What we're discussing here is the general system, and the general system doesn't fall over because chopping three trees down and being exhausted sucks, because the entire point of the new endurance system is that it should take a LOT more than it used to to become exhausted.

 

I like that, and I think it's great. But simultaneously doing this, while giving semi-realistic limitations would be exceptional; hence the short term and long term exhaustion. What do think about my concept, mm?

[ComradeSidorenko]

 

I really don't like that. Nobody wakes up at 8 AM, chops down two trees, saws some planks and then is so tired 4 hours later that they are in danger of passing out because of exhaustion.

 

As someone who has cleared several acres of heavy tree growth... that's exactly how it works. While I agree that the impact on "sleepiness" doesn't need to be terribly pronounced, chopping down trees and then sawing logs out of them is exhausting work. It takes hours to saw a single tree into planks by hand, if not days. For the sake of gameplay I understand not making it take that long, but making balance heavy, exhausting labor with less labor intensive things (like training skill books, cooking, and looting) is something healthy and positive for the game imo.

 

 

I do landscaping as a sidejob while I'm at Uni and I've chopped down my fair share of trees aswell, granted I didn't use an axe on a fully grown tree yet (addition of chainsaws for easy tree cutting into PZ, anyone?) and I agree it's pretty straining work to swing an axe, but in reality if you'd chop down a tree you wouldn't just get 3 planks per tree out of it and you can definitely chop down more than 2 trees without getting exhausted to a point that you can't stand anymore. Doesn't really matter as Lemmy already said it's a bug anyway, but I insist that it's not realistic to be dead tired and having to sleep after chopping down two trees.

 

 

I'd just like to point out that carpentry is very, very annoying with the new exhaustion system.

I've got a fully maxed out carpentry skill, I chop down two trees (which is 10 axe swings) and I'm instantly highly exerted.

This is a bug if its the case.

 

 

You might find the information that I've been using the right-click context menu action for chopping them down useful.

Have not tried cutting them down manually yet, since right-click is faster.

 

All in all I really like the concept of the new stamina system though.

 

Edit:

 

I also have a question regarind how getting tired while being exhausted works.

Is it correct that you get sleepy faster when you are exhausted or were exhausted during the day?

 

I also just tested chopping down trees manually in game and my suspicion was correct, the insane exertion only happens when using the right-click action. Chopping them down manually is fine.