ORMtnMan's Real Guns Mod 1.242 [32.30]

[ORMtnMan]

 

 

I want to be able to have a colt commander in 45acp or 9mm as they were chambered in such. Also i found it weird that the 45acp cartridges dont work with the m1911 and it takes only regular .45, 45acp stands for colt automatic pistol and from what ive seen is only used in the one rifle and not the pistol the cartridge it was literally designed for.

I'll have to look into that, the 1911 should be loading the .45 ACP rounds and not the .45 Colt.

As for the Colt Commander, it is a bit too similar to the 1911 to make much difference. There is a .38 super version already in there.

What kind of compelling case would you have for the .45 Commander? or the 9

 

 

Also i have not really seen a difference in calibers or guns? A 44magnum feels as powerful as a 9mm pistol. Was kind of hoping there would be a reqson to use the other guns besides the rapid fire ones like a tradeoff between firepower and fireate.

I think that has most to do with how Zomboid handles damage. In regards to zeds, only headshots are effective and are instantly fatal always. So no matter what gun you have the caliber is insignificant to killing power. Larger rounds should, however, have a larger knockback effect on non-fatal hits, but I haven't looked at it.

It might have a larger difference against players, so try shooting your friends and see which hurts more.

Edit, I also personally use revolvers over semi-pistols so I don't have to deal with reloading magazines all the time.

Actualy i never even used it on zeds only other players on zeeks haven server with a police officer character and shot some of my friends which is how i came to this conclusion. Compared to a berreta or a glock it takes almost the same about of shots unless they are critical but the berreta fires faster and has better dps overall just want a .44 to mess up someones day like it should.

The damage ranges for the game don't really allow for much difference damage wise, but I assure you that the damage of the .44 is quite a bit higher than the 9mm pistols. When using the .44 I have been able to gun down zombies in one shot (when I hit)

As Fuji said, revolvers are easier to deal with as you don't need to load mags.

 

 

Also i have not really seen a difference in calibers or guns? A 44magnum feels as powerful as a 9mm pistol. Was kind of hoping there would be a reqson to use the other guns besides the rapid fire ones like a tradeoff between firepower and fireate.

I think that has most to do with how Zomboid handles damage. In regards to zeds, only headshots are effective and are instantly fatal always. So no matter what gun you have the caliber is insignificant to killing power. Larger rounds should, however, have a larger knockback effect on non-fatal hits, but I haven't looked at it.

It might have a larger difference against players, so try shooting your friends and see which hurts more.

Edit, I also personally use revolvers over semi-pistols so I don't have to deal with reloading magazines all the time.

Can change the min/max damage per shot fired directly in item scripts? Pretty simple to have zombies say their health to test it out if it needs balancing . . .

I might need to do some rebalancing later but as I said above, the base game damage range is not very wide...

Might be better to give the 44 mag and the 454 casul round to have the damage of a rifle so it acts like a close range hand cannon like it should. Also noticed the 50 cal deagle has the same damage as the revolvers which could have a buff.

 

 

MY only qualm is that kinetially, the 44 and 454 are not as strong as the rifle rounds... I will have to go back over and do some damage balancing soon

[Fuji]

Well, to be fair, rifle rounds do exert higher energies than pistol rounds, but over a smaller area for penetration. A .44 Magnum will do more tissue damage than a 5.56 NATO, but won't go through body armor or walls as easily. Hammers and knives.

[ORMtnMan]

Well, to be fair, rifle rounds do exert higher energies than pistol rounds, but over a smaller area for penetration. A .44 Magnum will do more tissue damage than a 5.56 NATO, but won't go through body armor or walls as easily. Hammers and knives.

 

Fair point, I suppose but the formula for energy transfer (which is above my paygrade) if a function of mass and velocity, the difference in mass between a 556 (at 4g/62gr) and a 44 at (16g/240gr) is comparatively large, but the velocities are also very different. 556 at 940 m/s; 44 at 360 m/s.

 

As I said the formula is beyond my studies, so I am not sure what weighs heavier damage wise. One arguement is you want more surface area "whollop"  when dealing with zombies, more flesh damage, but on the other token, faster smaller rounds will more likely pierce the skull, which is generally more important...

 

Perhaps when I am balancing it I will do it this way, Make base damage more a factor of bullet weight and less on velocity, but up the crit modifier to very high for smaller rounds...

 

Though, the problem with that is that the game doesn't differentiate between humans and zombies damage wise...

 

Any thoughts?

[Fuji]

From a pure balance perspective, barring reality: Slow, low capacity, high weight weapons like revolvers and bolt-action rifles should do more damage than their automatic friends. Rifles always trump pistols, single action trumps automatic, etc.

But its not perfect, nor realistic. But until armor becomes a thing, range is really the only measurable difference. Bullets leave holes in people, and there's not a whole lot more the damage model can support besides that. Even in real life, more often than not, guns are chosen by reliability, ergonomics, or capacity rather than how well they kills things.

[Jether]

From a pure balance perspective, barring reality: Slow, low capacity, high weight weapons like revolvers and bolt-action rifles should do more damage than their automatic friends. Rifles always trump pistols, single action trumps automatic, etc.

But its not perfect, nor realistic. But until armor becomes a thing, range is really the only measurable difference. Bullets leave holes in people, and there's not a whole lot more the damage model can support besides that. Even in real life, more often than not, guns are chosen by reliability, ergonomics, or capacity rather than how well they kills things.

The us army is moving away from the 9mm because it doesnt kill things as well as the good old .45 which was used to stop jap banzai charges by knocking them on their asses. Also a .44 magnum round will obliterate someone as it is a revolver cartridge designed for such a .45acp is pretty different as its designed for semi autos. Calibers are tricky things where size doesnt always matter like the 5.56 having larger wounds the a 7.62 reason the ruskies adopted a variation of americas round was because it killed so damn well while a 7.62 wouls pass right through you. But the .357 and .44 mag for originally for law enforcement(i dont know specifics on that for the .44 mag id have to read back up on it. But it is a cartidge that is used to hunt big game where a .45acp ive never heard of it being used to actual hunt with besides as a backup for a rifle.

[Jether]

I love this mod though you nailed alot of things like being able to convert an m16 to .223 which is essentialy a lower power 5.56 round. Most people would never even imagine how similar they are and go off of the numbering. Calibers are a pain to really understand i still have issues grasping them all but your doing a fine job with this mod and cant wait for the gun porn version maybe a colt walker lol.

[Jether]

Sorry to be the one that blows up this thread but my friend recently showed me his taurus raging judge and i thought that itd be perfect for the zombie apocalyose. A handgun that fire shotgun shells and act as a revolver. Seems a no brainer right?

It can fire .454 casul and has a bore of 4.10, Maybe add a 4.10 shotgun or add the regular snub nose Taurus judge with a lighter weight but they might be to similar to add.

[ORMtnMan]

Sorry to be the one that blows up this thread but my friend recently showed me his taurus raging judge and i thought that itd be perfect for the zombie apocalyose. A handgun that fire shotgun shells and act as a revolver. Seems a no brainer right?

It can fire .454 casul and has a bore of 4.10, Maybe add a 4.10 shotgun or add the regular snub nose Taurus judge with a lighter weight but they might be to similar to add.

 

I think the raging Judge is already on the list for that exact reason.

 

I have no interest in "balancing" this mod game wise, I am much more about realism. I will readdress the damages, when I get time.

[Jether]

ok then I wanna add one more thing for now lol/ the m249 reload is crazy fast, faster then a pistol even, but probably not on a list of your priorities have been just doing a ton of testing with the guns.

[ORMtnMan]

ok then I wanna add one more thing for now lol/ the m249 reload is crazy fast, faster then a pistol even, but probably not on a list of your priorities have been just doing a ton of testing with the guns.

 

Why would the M249 not be fast? I'm confused

[Fuji]

ok then I wanna add one more thing for now lol/ the m249 reload is crazy fast, faster then a pistol even, but probably not on a list of your priorities have been just doing a ton of testing with the guns.

Why would the M249 not be fast? I'm confused

Boxes are awkward and heavy, plus the extra time for clipping the belt and closing the chamber. Speaking of which, though, and I don't know if you did it already, but M249s are STANAG compatable.

[ORMtnMan]

 

 

ok then I wanna add one more thing for now lol/ the m249 reload is crazy fast, faster then a pistol even, but probably not on a list of your priorities have been just doing a ton of testing with the guns.

Why would the M249 not be fast? I'm confused

Boxes are awkward and heavy, plus the extra time for clipping the belt and closing the chamber. Speaking of which, though, and I don't know if you did it already, but M249s are STANAG compatable.

 

Oh, he means reloading wise, got it, I'll fix that.  Wouldn't the M249 need to have a conversion kit to change between belts and stanag mags?

[Khaos]

Have you got an idea into how jamming would actually work? I was just thinking, if it's possible to detect chambered +1 rounds and delete them that would just mean the player would have to charge or rack the weapon again which would work well enough as a jamming mechanic? Obviously it would need a little sound to not confuse the hell out of people but that might mean it wouldn't be too intruding/interfering with other scripts the mod runs.

The suggestions and ideas being given on here like different ammunition qualities causing weapon condition damage sounds awesome. Hell if PZ eventually gets capable without having to be script heavy it would be amazing to see individual part damage and make replacements available such as barrel changes, etc. However I guess that would play hell trying to find various parts to fix up a weapon with the current map only having a single gunstore. But hey that's just some speculation.

As for a weapon suggestion, a blackpowder rifle might be interesting. I understand completely that it isn't a widespread type weapon but it would be a great weapon to draw away hordes with the noise of one of those. If it's rarity can be set individually it could be really damn high no matter the sandbox setting.

[Khaos]

No a conversion isn't needed, most modern manufactured M249's come with a magazine well on the left hand side which usually the belt from a box just moves over the top of.

From what I recall however it can jam really easily when using a stanag but I could be wrong.

*edit*

Can PZ even support multiple magazine types for one weapon or would it just be a right click conversion such as the fire modes? Speaking of firemodes is it possible to create custom keys as that would be great just being able to hit a button and switch.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jether]

It shouldn't need a conversion kit because with US military doctrine a squad usually all carries the same ammo and carry interchangeable magazines. So incase the m249 gunner runs out of ammo an automatic rifleman can supply him with their own stanag ones to keep him firing. There is also the new IAR M27 Infantry Assault rifle that is based around this concept and is essentially a larger Ar platform designed for longrange rapid fire, it also is being designed to use a 100 round beta mag but currently while its in service has only used the 30 rounds stanags until the beta mags are done being evaluated.

[ORMtnMan]

Have you got an idea into how jamming would actually work? I was just thinking, if it's possible to detect chambered +1 rounds and delete them that would just mean the player would have to charge or rack the weapon again which would work well enough as a jamming mechanic? Obviously it would need a little sound to not confuse the hell out of people but that might mean it wouldn't be too intruding/interfering with other scripts the mod runs.

The suggestions and ideas being given on here like different ammunition qualities causing weapon condition damage sounds awesome. Hell if PZ eventually gets capable without having to be script heavy it would be amazing to see individual part damage and make replacements available such as barrel changes, etc. However I guess that would play hell trying to find various parts to fix up a weapon with the current map only having a single gunstore. But hey that's just some speculation.

As for a weapon suggestion, a blackpowder rifle might be interesting. I understand completely that it isn't a widespread type weapon but it would be a great weapon to draw away hordes with the noise of one of those. If it's rarity can be set individually it could be really damn high no matter the sandbox setting.

 

You are on the same track that I was for jamming, the more worn the weapon is the more likely you would need to clear a jam with an extra racking, which would eject the chambered round onto the ground. The tracking of damage to separate parts is currently beyond me, though. It would require a lot of separate tracking of damage to each part, though, now that I sound it out, it is possible, and possibly not that hard. You would just have a couple of durability stats for the gun, the only hard part is the ui, which I am not good with coding for showing the durability of different parts.

 

Hrm, a black powder rifle like an old sharps? If you can find multiple weapons that use the ammo, I might add them to the list.

 

 

No a conversion isn't needed, most modern manufactured M249's come with a magazine well on the left hand side which usually the belt from a box just moves over the top of.

From what I recall however it can jam really easily when using a stanag but I could be wrong.

*edit*

Can PZ even support multiple magazine types for one weapon or would it just be a right click conversion such as the fire modes? Speaking of firemodes is it possible to create custom keys as that would be great just being able to hit a button and switch.

 

 

Well, you learn new things every day I'll make that compatible.

 

Doing a conversion would be annoying when you are trying to use multiple mags when mobbed by zombies. So I have been doing a complete rewrite of the reloading code (which is what has been taking me so long.)  I am also going to be changing the firemodes so they are not conversions anymore because that has been fairly disastrous in its implementation. It was a good idea... but I will make it better. 

 

That is a good idea about the hotkey switch. Finding an easily accessible one that isnt already taken is the problem.

[Khaos]

I mean even older than a sharpes I was thinking a muzzleloader.

Hearing that you are re-writing the reloading just like that really goes to show the dedication involved. Besides bug reports is there anything I can help with? I don't imagine I'd be much help with coding but I can definitely look in to helping out with artwork.

I've been pondering writing a document which briefly details all the weapons like manufacturer and date and then its attachments and firenodes, etc to just inform those not that familiar with the firearms in the mod and to do it concisively if that could be of any help?

[ORMtnMan]

I mean even older than a sharpes I was thinking a muzzleloader.

Hearing that you are re-writing the reloading just like that really goes to show the dedication involved. Besides bug reports is there anything I can help with? I don't imagine I'd be much help with coding but I can definitely look in to helping out with artwork.

I've been pondering writing a document which briefly details all the weapons like manufacturer and date and then its attachments and firenodes, etc in-game to just inform those not that familiar with firearms concisely if that could be of any help?

 

Oh, like Renaissance... wowza. Well, again give me a couple specific examples (and possibly send me some side shot pics I can convert into Icons and I'll add them. Those would have a stupidly long reload time... not good in a pinch that's for sure.

 

Hey, I really appreciate your willingness to help!

 

Testing, finding bugs and pointing out inaccuracies/inconsistencies is incredibly helpful to me! I can be pretty nit-picky, but there are some things I just don't know yet or miss because there are so many things going on in this mod already.

 

Artwork is also always helpful! Especially if you are good with modelling, I have some wonderful people helping with that, but, there are a lot of unique looking weapons on the list, so let me know if you have the talent.  Otherwise... the icons I do myself and are quick for me to throw together. Sounds are also something I struggle with because I do not delve into that at all. I had a guy really helping me out with them but I haven't heard from him (or reached out, so blame myself) in a while. I haven't even gotten into jamming or breaking sounds, bullet or shell drop sounds. If you could find any of those from sources that I can use (free or with permission) that would be incredible.

 

Hey, and SRD would be incredible, though, you could just start a wiki (I have never done it, so I don't know what is involved) so that more people could access it.  I give you full permission to make either thing!

 

Your name will be added to the wall of gentlemen soon I believe.

[Khaos]

I was looking at a wiki creator, its the same one the PZ Wiki uses so I will definitely give that a go and could potentially have one working tomorrow so I'll report back.

I'd be interested in trying to create some models but that might not go too well xD. Any idea what software the contributors are using?

*edit* After checking out the creator the PZ Wiki uses it became apparent that it requires personal hosting which I don't have the equipment to do, Wikia however is hosted internally, the only downside is adverts so I mocked up a very rough test and if this looks ok to you I'll get to work on completing it and making it look a lot nicer: http://ormtnman-real-guns-mod.wikia.com/wiki/ORMtnMan%27_Real_Guns_Mod_Wikia

[ORMtnMan]

I was looking at a wiki creator, its the same one the PZ Wiki uses so I will definitely give that a go and could potentially have one working tomorrow so I'll report back.

I'd be interested in trying to create some models but that might not go too well xD. Any idea what software the contributors are using?

*edit* After checking out the creator the PZ Wiki uses it became apparent that it requires personal hosting which I don't have the equipment to do, Wikia however is hosted internally, the only downside is adverts so I mocked up a very rough test and if this looks ok to you I'll get to work on completing it and making it look a lot nicer: http://ormtnman-real-guns-mod.wikia.com/wiki/ORMtnMan%27_Real_Guns_Mod_Wikia

 

Well, for models, I believe that they use blender which is a free program you can download.

 

Here's a link to the import/export scripts you would need. Also for actually making the guns, thankfully the models for pz are low poly, so you don't need to make them greatly detailed. The textures are also pretty basic. Fuji, was always helpful to me might be able to help you out with some pointers.

 

The ORGM wiki looks great! Is that the permanent link? If so, I'll post it on the front page.

[Khaos]

It should be permanent but it will take some time to get it done. Would it be possible to get the icons for the weapons, ammo, attachments, etc? As well as the stats for the weapons if you have them? I wouldn't think the site needs every single stat like the PZ Wiki has but some basic ones would probably work.

[Fuji]

I was looking at a wiki creator, its the same one the PZ Wiki uses so I will definitely give that a go and could potentially have one working tomorrow so I'll report back.

I'd be interested in trying to create some models but that might not go too well xD. Any idea what software the contributors are using?

*edit* After checking out the creator the PZ Wiki uses it became apparent that it requires personal hosting which I don't have the equipment to do, Wikia however is hosted internally, the only downside is adverts so I mocked up a very rough test and if this looks ok to you I'll get to work on completing it and making it look a lot nicer: http://ormtnman-real-guns-mod.wikia.com/wiki/ORMtnMan%27_Real_Guns_Mod_Wikia

Well, for models, I believe that they use blender which is a free program you can download.

Here's a link to the import/export scripts you would need. Also for actually making the guns, thankfully the models for pz are low poly, so you don't need to make them greatly detailed. The textures are also pretty basic. Fuji, was always helpful to me might be able to help you out with some pointers.

The ORGM wiki looks great! Is that the permanent link? If so, I'll post it on the front page.

Yep, if you need Blender help you can shoot me or Jab over on the #pzmodding IRC, or just PM me.

[Khaos]

Entered all the pistols, it's good they have the highest amount as I ran out of room on that table, I'm going to have to look into how to extend it even more when new pistols are added as it is full now. Now onto detailing!

[endders]

Just wondering if you know about the fn p90 unable to be repaired ? I found out quickly about this after I only got 200 rounds through it. 

Which leads me to another suggestion. Realistic condition degrading.

Not sure if it can be implemented but most guns have a good 10,000 rounds OR more depending on who made the gun etc. Just something I'm bringing up since I note a lot of guns going through just 300-400 rounds and being broken

[fluffe9911]

I think that's more of a balancing feature lol