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Operation Fix Late Game By Killing You Before You Get There


lemmy101

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I dont support the sacrifice of realism for the sake of difficult. If you want to make end game harder you just need to make farming time longer (About 2 months to 4 months to grow potatoes) and make then last a little longer or keep then fresh when unripped.

 

That's just trading difficulty for boredom, and also entirely against the "players shouldn't be surviving for several months" concept this whole thread is about.

 

Upon further reflection, I think the real problem in the current version is that there are entire basic game mechanics that reward not doing anything. Right now we have four main sustenance routes:

  1. Farming: safe, somewhat reliable once you know the system, and produces a truly ridiculous amount of food if you focus on it. The downsides are the arcane rules, that it's mind-numbingly boring and requires constant tedious busywork, and finally that it rewards players for sedentary behavior instead of actually taking risks and having fun. So yeah, not a fan of farming in its current form. ;)
  2. Trapping: not as safe as farming as the traps must be placed in unoccupied areas, but as a consequence it's not as boring either. The randomness and lack of feedback as to why a trap isn't working are probably my biggest gripes with it right now.
  3. Fishing: I haven't played around with this one much, but it's fairly easy to comprehend without a wiki (unlike the prior two) and even an unskilled character can survive on a few good catches. It also puts you in a bit of danger as you'll have to relocate occasionally and you are vulnerable while fishing, but since the area around the river is free of obstacles and thus easy to keep clear, you'd almost have to be trying to get caught by a zombie.
  4. Looting: the most dangerous and unpredictable route (and honestly the most fun), this is the only gameplay mechanic that forces you to leave your comfortable base for extended periods of time. It leads to interesting encounters (dealing with the weather, zombie hordes, other players, and eventually NPCs; all in unfriendly and uncharted territory) and allows you to obtain loot other than food. I consider looting the heart and soul of Project Zomboid's gameplay, but a lot of players stop doing it once they have the tools to reach self-sufficiency. More game mechanics that kept it relevant in the end-game would be very welcome.
  5. (-ish) Foraging: Not really a valid food gathering method since AFAIK you can't find enough early on to sustain yourself, but it's a good supplement to the others in a pinch. It's also moderately dangerous (zombies in the woods, man!). All in all a good addition to the game. :)
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Fist, thanks for the kind feedback to my post. I don't want the "easy mode" if it sounded that way :) But I'd like to see the possibility to some day make it to the zombie-proof homebase/community, that survives.

Still every day has death lurking just around the corner. But have me have the chance to beat death again and again, improving my living conditions slow but steady and becoming the last man standing who looks down from his base on the horror shuffling around his safehaven.

 

The problem with lategame is not that its possible at all, but that it does not feel rewarding to make it that far

 

I want to share another idea, that would make the game harder, more realistic, and would add to the feeling to have lost civilization:

 

What about the greatest source of death ever? Infections. If you get scratched (with new and higher chances to get scratched while fighting/doing carpentry/climbing fences/broken windows) there could be a slim chance of the scratch catching an infection that has a high chance of killing you and can only be countered with antibiotics (which would be scarce and irreplacable). If you try to cure the infection with staying well-fed it could work also, but take time and has a very low chance of survival.

I would approve of the infection mechanics, but with a difference. Add the ability to treat scratches/wounds with fire / alcohol to dramatically reduce the chance of infection. I'd do some research on the effectiveness of various treatments of wounds.

I agree with the general sentiment that SailorWolf has; I want to be able to survive for longer periods of time, but I want it to be brutally hard (without being unrealistically so, like artificially fast decay of food and stuff like that). Also, NPCs will likely dramatically affect how the game is played. There is so much more that is being added that it is hard to say where things will go.

 

This update seems to be like a step in the right direction.

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 Given the fact that even reasonable people would fight for good reasons (see above.) and this is why war is waged.

 

Your post is right, but on that precise point I'd say it's true 50% percent of the time. There are good reasons to fight for, but wars aren't all started by good reasons ;o

Wars are a very efficient source of income for certain people, and a very efficient wave to surf on for politics, politics often financed in good part by those people making profit on wars.

Most soldiers in any modern war are just people who didn't have enough hindsight to realise they're fighting for the benefits of some other people, or brainwashed by propaganda, religious or political.

Because objectively, war never is a good solution to improve a people's situation, it generally ends up taking years, and the consequences taking decades ; a source of hatred on both sides of the conflict, hard to overcome on many generations.

Anyway, all of this to say agree that we can't compare modern wars that are an intricacy of many complicated factors, and a zombie apocalypse.

 

Most veterans I know aren't at all oblivious to the likelyhood of alterior motives of politicans and whatnot. They joined because the benfits were nice, and/or it was a family tradition.

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Fist, thanks for the kind feedback to my post. I don't want the "easy mode" if it sounded that way :) But I'd like to see the possibility to some day make it to the zombie-proof homebase/community, that survives.

Still every day has death lurking just around the corner. But have me have the chance to beat death again and again, improving my living conditions slow but steady and becoming the last man standing who looks down from his base on the horror shuffling around his safehaven.

 

The problem with lategame is not that its possible at all, but that it does not feel rewarding to make it that far

 

I want to share another idea, that would make the game harder, more realistic, and would add to the feeling to have lost civilization:

 

What about the greatest source of death ever? Infections. If you get scratched (with new and higher chances to get scratched while fighting/doing carpentry/climbing fences/broken windows) there could be a slim chance of the scratch catching an infection that has a high chance of killing you and can only be countered with antibiotics (which would be scarce and irreplacable). If you try to cure the infection with staying well-fed it could work also, but take time and has a very low chance of survival.

I would approve of the infection mechanics, but with a difference. Add the ability to treat scratches/wounds with fire / alcohol to dramatically reduce the chance of infection. I'd do some research on the effectiveness of various treatments of wounds.

I agree with the general sentiment that SailorWolf has; I want to be able to survive for longer periods of time, but I want it to be brutally hard (without being unrealistically so, like artificially fast decay of food and stuff like that). Also, NPCs will likely dramatically affect how the game is played. There is so much more that is being added that it is hard to say where things will go.

 

This update seems to be like a step in the right direction.

 

Fire is not a good method of sanitizing wounds. Burns can get infected and they have an even more difficult time healing than regular cuts and scrapes.

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Fire is not a good method of sanitizing wounds. Burns can get infected and they have an even more difficult time healing than regular cuts and scrapes.

 

 

never understood why Hollywood ever punted this idea as you already injured now you going to injure yourself again ...noooo   no no no no no   dose not compute in my books.

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To be fair it's an emergency treatment if you're bleeding out and need to stop the blood loss right the hell now. The long term risk of infection and healing complications is outweighed by the immediate necessity of stopping the bleeding. Could be a good treatment for gushing wounds that bandaging isn't doing a good job of stemming.

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First time poster here - love the game - Indie all the way!

 

This thread made me want to post my thoughts which many may disagree with...but hey...let's see.

 

Having got a few toons through 7 months plus I have a few thoughts.

 

1). Zombie respawn repopulation needs some work. I like the thought of hordes/roving masses both in the game in general and ways to repopulate cleansed areas.

 

2). I don't really like the idea of a forcing of difficulty just to kill you. I would like the game harder so that strategy, planning, cunning and backup plans need to be constantly updated and used. I'm fine with all of that. Just don't like the idea of insta-kills or events that just wipe you for the sake of 'hard'.

 

3). I think there needs to be a balance between risk and reward but also safety. I think there should be ways of building a safe-house/fort that zombies find difficult to penetrate..such as masonry, concrete walls but the rub comes with needing larger equipment (cranes/trucks/mixers) to move materials and undertake construction. I feel that end-game construction/fortification has a lot of potential and fun - but durability should cost effort and resources.

 

4). If I build a wooden safe-house a horde just flattening it all and killing me in my sleep is no fun...and somewhat punitive.  I get the hopelessness you want us to feel, that's all good. I'd prefer to be on my feet and at least go down fighting ...or escape...so traps, alarms (cans on a rope etc.) would be great. Again crates with grab bags - bug out planning, building multiple escape routes, fenced off zones to buy time etc.

 

5). Power generation (grid/portable generators), water supply, plumbing, sanitation, wiring, cabling, comms equipment, electric fencing, fuel, oil, gas etc  all potentially have lots of skills/mats/recipes and fun stuff to expand end-game.

 

6). I think there could be work around melee endurance/training and skills as well. we do a lot of melee and we never seem to build up our endurance despite all those workouts!

 

7. Farming - hopefully the new seasons will affect the viability of framing through the winter - but I would like to see more in the direction of food preservation. More crop pestilence/bugs and ways to fix them would be good.

 

8). I can probably put up with more extreme and unusual weather events (huge storms, dust storms, fog, damaging winds, flooding?) but It may feel forced if we added masses of tornadoes flattening everything in their path! lightning, wild fires? they do really happen, hmm not sure again, don't want to feel too much like the game is bored with me!

 

9). More safe-house defence options would be nice - oil filled ditches, bring back Molotov's, ability to craft ammunition, crude cannons, black powder, build traps, explosives etc...especially as Fort Knox gets added. Hopefully not quite a tower-defence game....

 

10). Dogs...we need dogs...wild packs (and some other animals) and tameable side kicks....that fetch the odd zombie arm...(game animals to use the .22 on and maybe these will help distribute/move zeds around too)..bears, skunks, wolves, mountain lions (ooo...and mountains!), horses...can we ride?

 

Just some rambling thoughts...

 

Looking forward to how it turns out!

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Hey guys, first post here. Please forgive my bad english, it's not my first language.
 
I think everyone is missing the point entirely - it doesn't matter if the "official" survival difficulty is harder, if there is a beginner mode, or whatever. The only sure way to please everyone is to have very detailed game customization options, so everyone gets their cup of tea. 
 
It's obvious that each person wants a different thing for the game (as it should be). Some want to feel like their lives hang by a thread every single second; others want to get a sense of progression and feel that they can make their way with enough effort and skill. Some don't care if realism is thrown out of the window for the sake of difficulty, and others feel the other way around.
 
And, I think, most people want their own personal middle ground somewhere between the extremes.
 
What I humbly think that could address all concerns is making more aspects of the game customizable in Sandbox Mode - let each person play the game like they want to. Set sliders for food spoilage, zombie horde strength and behavior; enable, disable, and set difficulty levels for things like food preservation, refrigeration, fishing, loot respawn, overall survivor behavior... Stuff like that. I could make a huge list!
 
That would not just make Project Zomboid tailored for every player, but would also make each new game a different, unique experience each time you play it. It would make the game live longer for everyone. 

Some may argue that more customization sliders would bring more complication to the game; but those customizations are optional - you can still play your preset beginner or survival difficulties without picking any variables. 
 
Also, the devs should take into account that not everyone plays multiplayer (I do, actually, with a small group of five), and if "classes" are too specialized, lone survivors wouldn't have a very fun game. 
 
I agree some specialization would add up to the game (it's nice to depend on your friendly medic to heal, your creative chef to cook, your violent serial killer neighbor to whack the zeds around the base), but people playing in single player shouldn't feel like they are one trick ponies.
 
 
TL;DR: Don't alienate part of your player base by setting fixed game variables - make those, well, variable. All of those, way more than sandbox allows now. Let we decided how deadly or realistic our version of undead Knox County is going to be.
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Keep in mind for solo players NPCs will help cover some of their weaknesses; or, you can struggle.

Regarding sandbox options, more is definitely nice, but keep in mind the devs also have a game to make- they may not have that amount of time to spend on just trying to appease everyone. There's definitely a core audience.

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Keep in mind for solo players NPCs will help cover some of their weaknesses; or, you can struggle.

Regarding sandbox options, more is definitely nice, but keep in mind the devs also have a game to make- they may not have that amount of time to spend on just trying to appease everyone. There's definitely a core audience.

I understand this, Rath, but look - if an absolute computer amateur like myself can alter the .ini (or .lua) files to change game configurations beyond the options menu, I'm sure the devs can just port these into an easy to tinker with menu.

As far as my very limited programming knowledge goes, the fact that the devs used lua as the game language makes it trivial to add the changes I was talking about. The graphic U.I. already exists (the existing sandbox customization menu)... I believe it's just a matter of adding more options to it - i.e.; linking the lua variables into the interface.

Again, I'm talking about stuff I know next to nothing about, so I could be completely wrong.

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Hey all, 

 

Awesome thread, I've seen really great suggestions while reading it.

 

While I'm still trying to put together my own stand on this matter, I think it would be wise to have the below two quotes in mind before jumping into conclussions:

 

Explorator Said:

 

I waited a day to respond to this thread so I could collect my thoughts.  I think all segments of the game will need to be fully implemented before we have a true gauge of the difficulty level.  If we actually had to worry about passing out due to exhaustion, or sleeping 18 hours a day due to depression, or if we suffered a penalty to experience due to boredom, it would give us a true measure of how hard it will be to survive long term.

 

And of course...

 

Ornafulsamee said:

 

But please, don't fix the problem by forcing the player to do boring stuff

 

With this clear, here are my favourites suggestions so far:

 

Alex2213 said:

 

making the zombies reflexes a little better and to have tighter grips.

 

 

Gaunti12 said:

 

 

What about the greatest source of death ever? Infections. If you get scratched (with new and higher chances to get scratched while fighting/doing carpentry/climbing fences/broken windows) there could be a slim chance of the scratch catching an infection that has a high chance of killing you and can only be countered with antibiotics (which would be scarce and irreplacable). If you try to cure the infection with staying well-fed it could work also, but take time and has a very low chance of survival.

 

 

moose65 said:

 

I always questioned why it was so easy to "rope a dope" per say on the zombies. I was wondering when they would be able to "alert" other nearby zombies, hopefully this is something you were addressing with uping the difficulty. I really look forward to seeing them group up and be more active.

 

 

ChosunOne said:

 

Also, with the erosion mod being implemented into the game, I think making farming not an option during the winters would definitely make it more challenging as you must survive for roughly three and a half months without any extra food source than your stockpiles.  Imagine a megahorde attacking at the beginning of winter.  You are basically stuck in your base forced to either brave the horde or dwindle away your remaining supplies, hoping that something else draws the horde away.

 

 

Jatta Pake said:

 

  1. Growing Hordes. Hordes grow or bigger hordes migrate into the game over time. Maybe every three months the hordes grow in size and power representing the natural clustering of zombies attracted to each other's sounds.
  2. Wild Predators. Wild, feral animals migrate into the game over time. Spring could be especially dangerous as wild animal populations explode due to the lack of humans. Bears and wolves could pose a unique threat - with their sense of smell and speed being better than an individual zombie. Plus bears can climb shit. Now picture a bear with rabies. Now picture a rabid, safehouse climbing bear with a taste for human flesh acquired from eating human corpses.
  3. Spring Storms.  Existing and player built structures could be damaged or destroyed randomly during Spring storms. Meade County, Kentucky has had five tornadoes since 1987. Storms and high wind could knock down walls.  Lightening strikes could cause random fires.

 

Zorak said:

 

My points about food balance:

1) we need to tweak some numbers. 1 tomato or any other vege can keep you for a day ( by eating 1/4 each time). which is unreal.Imo it must be something about 75-100 hunger points for a day.

2) the well feed buff dont last long enough to make it worth it. Make it last a day or a half so eating more than we need might be a good option before long scavenge run.

3) high lvl cook need more benefits. like some bonus hunger reduction when meaking a nice meal ( 10+10 + 10 = 45 for high lvl cook) and/or well feed buff last longer if the meal is prepered by high lvl cook.

4) if you keep eating junk food , canned food you might get a debuff for a few days. It would be another reason to make a soup / salad and not eat those veges one by one of keep eating crisps / canned food all the time.

 

 

Spaniard said:

 

I know melee combat is being tweaked, but perhaps one way of balancing the game and making it more realistic is to increase how much panic messes with combat. Especially with hand to hand combat, it would make sense that someone running into zombies for the first time would not be able to calmly dispatch them in melee, even with a weapon.

 

 

SpaceJunk said:

 

Zombies should have gradual levels of perception. They wouldn't go in hunt mode if they hear far noises or sniff a faint smell, but they would tend to wander towards that direction. Almost everything should be noisy and smelly at some level -- closing a door, dropping an item, taking stuff from containers, leaving clothes behind, "entering and exiting" a bathroom.

 

And finally, I think Akiruu wrote an excellent post here:

 

Akiruu Said:

 

1. Decrease weapon damage and durability. I played a bit a few days ago on normal mode and killed 98 zeds with one unmodded bat in one continuous killing spree during the 1st few mins of a new game with no skills allocated & no traits. I felt the bat should have broken maybe around 30-60 zeds. Perhaps 3 hits min to kill a zed for an unskilled person? No idea - just seem too easy to play L4D style at the moment. At least make us have to carry 2 bats or constantly be worried about duct taping it up during fights to keep us on our toes. You could even make it more hardcore and give us a chance to drop the bat or a zombie knock it out of our hands, forcing us to use our secondary weapons. Probably make a skill to not be disarmed so easy :]

 

2. Stamina System: Killing 100 zeds with a bat in one go is superhuman imo, esp for a new char. Things like the Exhaustion Mod/Passing are onto the right idea.

 

3. Better Zombie Footwork and Balance: Most zeds got knocked to the ground in one blow from my bat. Please give them better balance, because its almost mechanical killing them. ATM: 1 swing to ground them, 1 swing to pound them

 

4. Tougher Combat: I loved the changes in 2.0q (i think it was q?) that added growing and shrinking circles that simulated our accuracy for melee and guns. Maybe return this as a Hardcore option - Like Hardcore Reload, but for melee? How about axes getting stuck in zombies and we need to "pull it out" - that could create tense situations. Getting  "stuck" should be a big problem with edge weapons imo. And blunt weapons should be more tiring to balance - with longer recovery times after swings. 

 

5. Medicine and Antibiotics: I know you guys are working on this as well. But make scratches and other injuries have a high chance to get infected unless we use disinfectant and antibiotics. This would force us into making dangerous looting runs into zed filled areas to seek medicine. Deep lacerations should require we stitch up wounds as well to stop bleeding - it should be more effective if a friend/npc sews u up. 

 

6. More Jump Scares/Zed corpses indoors/Less Speed Looting: Right now i can break a window, loot a fridge, and be out of there before alarm draws a horde or even the indoor zeds eat me. Looting a house is one of the scariest parts of a zombie movie! Its dark, its unknown terrain, and there could be zeds anywhere!  Maybe have more zed corpses all over indoors slumped against walls and in hallways. We cant run in and speed loot since they may reanimate, so we need to slow down. More curtains so we cant peek in and know the lay of the land and zed numbers, and make it way way way darker indoors (At least for some houses/bldgs) so we need to use a light source). 

 

With only half of these in place, PZ would be a terrible place to be :)

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Hey guys, first post here. Please forgive my bad english, it's not my first language.
 
I think everyone is missing the point entirely - it doesn't matter if the "official" survival difficulty is harder, if there is a beginner mode, or whatever. The only sure way to please everyone is to have very detailed game customization options, so everyone gets their cup of tea. 

I sincerely doubt that the developers are "missing the point" of their own game. Their own game which they have been painstakingly crafting into the image they have envisioned for it.

 

While I do agree that having more variables for sandbox would be nice, I somehow doubt that sandbox is supposed to be the main mode of play. It'd be great for those who want it, but I don't think that it should be focused on to the exclusion of everything else.

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The one thing I know that doesn't need changed is loot amounts. There's a fuckload of loot now, but think: The NPCs will need to eat soon. So yeah, we have loads because we're on our own, but once NPCs are in resources are gonna be a lot more scarce from groups hoarding food and tools.

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I been playing Rogue Survivor again for a week now, and man it still feels like Project Zomboid.

 

I been playing it and learning to overcome zombies is not easy, killing a zombie with melee brings the risk of infection just like PZ, leaving a zombie body in your safehouse leads to a risk of getting infected, killing too many zombies leads to a possible insane state the first days, zombies will come after you if you leave a trail, you are trapped insde the city and you cant escape.

 

All of that makes you fear them in some way, and each day a new wave of zombies will come from outside the city to try and kill you, it feels like Project Zomboid the way that you cant win at all.

 

So you have to fight against the undead, your own insanity and the infection and starvation.

 

But then once again, the NPCs are the real threat here, i was about to survive just fine the first week then a rouge police officer shows up at my base, blasts my companion who had a can of food, and loots him and then he runs away at midnight, then my companion revives and kills me while i am sleeping because he was bitten it seems.

 

Also, even if you survive long enough, the game will try to kill you even more, sending the army and black ops operators, the army trys to help a bit, but sooner or later they will die or turn rogue because of the lack of food, then air drops happen and half the city will kill each other for that stuff, then black ops come and will rekt everyone around them.

 

NPCs really need to add a bunch of difficulty to the game, as it stands right now, there is plenty of loot, zombies wont grab you at all cause they dont have a real grip and you can feel comfy insde your safehouse and you are superhuman who needs no sleep or rest cause you can sprint all day long.

 

I just wanted to post this because the game feels a lot like Project Zomboid, i think the devs have played it before.

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For all the people saying zombies Are not difficult. Try it with insane # of zombies, sprinters, super human, and tough and that they can hear, smell and see you from 200 yards away. Then you find out its difficult for even veteran players. A simple scavenging mission can get you killed. Shit even with the walking type and with all those characteristics they will chew you up.

I like the game as it is. All i would love to see wpuld be the wondering packs of UD.

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I honestly think is mostly a matter of gameplay choices. 

 

Since the game mechanics allow the advanced player to just sit and see the crops growing, and the game objective is to survive as much as you can, the farming feature gets "exploited". 

 

Its not that the game is easy. Everytime I get out of my safe house to make some runs I have incredibly intense moments. Going from Muldraugh to WP is always a challenge...

 

Yesterday I tried build 29 for the first time. I have most of Muldraugh completely looted, and two safe houses in place. The main road is still packed with tons of zombies but the town itself is mostly empty. I decided to make a run to West Point an it was amazing. The classic "where the hell do I sleep now..." or "damn, its too frigging late, and I can't see anything three meters away".

 

The game feels great as it is right now, I would only tweak some aspects to make it go back to the nightmare experience. 

 

As "Explorator" pointed out, the moment all the negative effects from boredom, exhaustion or depression get reviewed and in place, things will get nastier. 

 

There could be also de-buffs for sitting on the same place for too long (aka, safe house-farming). The character could get increasingly depressed or bored as the days go by. If the game somehow forces you to take the road, we are back again on the right track. 

 

Some of my runs would have ended abruptly if the "exhaustion" feature actually made my character move very slow, or even pass out. 

 

Add to this a better grip for Zombies (they are asking for it!) and I think only minor tweaks will be necessary. 

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As "Explorator" pointed out, the moment all the negative effects from boredom, exhaustion or depression get reviewed and in place, things will get nastier.

There could be also de-buffs for sitting on the same place for too long (aka, safe house-farming). The character could get increasingly depressed or bored as the days go by. If the game somehow forces you to take the road, we are back again on the right track.

Some of my runs would have ended abruptly if the "exhaustion" feature actually made my character move very slow, or even pass out.

I think I said earlier that I assumed monotony caused boredom - there are a lot of ways that you could work that into the game besides "being indoors -> boredom". Perhaps a novelty meter for [places/foods/reading material/art/&c.] that drains when you interact and fills when you don't?

 

Also, I was trying to find information on the physiology of fatigue a while ago for game design purposes; I can't say I found much, or understood much, but there were some hints in what I saw that might be good to follow up on:

  • Boredom (and probably depression) should create temporary fatigue effects until relieved.
  • Fatigue is associated with loss of muscle power - even if it's boredom-fatigue. (Which, naturally, is bad if you're near your weight capacity.)
  • Extreme fatigue should cause microsleep i.e. nodding off. I figure that would interrupt (or delay) tasks and reduce your ability to pay attention to your surroundings. (May be a good reason not to take so many beta blockers....)
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I think boredom and long term fatigue will influence your character's sanity, the effects will be much deeper than temporary fatigue !

Back in the old days there were hallucinations (auditive & visuals), panic etc... you ended up barricading yourself like you were under Z-siege for days, hearing the endless door banging... to enventually decide to open the door and meet your fate and realize those were just hallucinations ;o

I think will see that back at some point !

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Dunno about you, but boredom usually gives me a sort of nervous energy and a desire to get things done, not make me wanna lie down and sleep it off.

Good point! I think what the website I read was referring to was the stuck-in-a-tedious-meeting kind of boring where you're literally nodding off. Perhaps boredom debuffs only happen if you're still doing something boring?

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I guess boredom could have different effects depending on circumstances. If you're already tired to begin with, being bored increases chances of nodding off. If you're not tired, being bored makes you nervous. Stuff like that.

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