Operation Fix Late Game By Killing You Before You Get There

[Rathlord]

Thanks for your candor, and I assure you, we very rarely have any problems with people here. To be honest, I really don't think he meant anything negative towards you in his post; he obviously disagreed with you, but I didn't read any condescension. I guess that's the problem with text communications (and keep in mind not everyone here is English first language). Anyways, that's enough of derailing this thread. If you have any other questions or comments please feel free to PM me or any of the rest of the mod team.

 

Otherwise- back to the topic at hand

[EreWeGo]

To be honest SailorWolf, I don't think I've found a more supportive community than the PZ one - I really think you just took those comments the wrong way. Stick around a while and you'll see mate - we're a pretty good bunch here!

 

Like any forum, there are going to be disagreements, and the odd little war of words, but they're usually resolved pretty quickly, without much need for the old "ban hammer" (much to the moderators disappointment probably.... )

 

Anyway, as far as your concerns, I do see your point, but PZ is about "This is How you Died".  I guess as a side affect if the many cool additions to the game, (farming, trapping, fishing etc), have made surviving long-term a little easier, and the devs are now trying to get back to the roots of the game a little. Not all players will play PZ the same way, and there's nothing wrong with a player enjoying seeing how big a fort they can build, or how long they can keep their character alive etc for example.

 

For me, and for some players, the problem is that the end game often devolves into almost a "farmville" type existence, and zombies end up being an irregular annoyance, rather than the constant threat that maybe they should be... (IMHO anyway).

 

Let's wait and see how the changes affect the game. The great thing about PZ is that fact it has the Sandbox mode - so even if the changes to the base-game don't suit your gameplay style, there's nothing stopping a player, (and also nothing wrong), with not playing the "Survival" mode, and tweaking the game to suit you.

 

Anyway, hope you give the forums a chance, now back on topic.... (sorry Rath!)

[SailorWolf]

How many zombies will be in a horde? I've never got to see them so was just wondering how it use to be. It had me thinking maybe setup and stock a couple of backup bases to jump around too unless hordes are say 10 to 15 zeds.

[SailorWolf]

To be honest SailorWolf, I don't think I've found a more supportive community than the PZ one - I really think you just took those comments the wrong way. Stick around a while and you'll see mate - we're a pretty good bunch here!

 

Like any forum, there are going to be disagreements, and the odd little war of words, but they're usually resolved pretty quickly, without much need for the old "ban hammer" (much to the moderators disappointment probably.... )

 

Anyway, as far as your concerns, I do see your point, but PZ is about "This is How you Died".  I guess as a side affect if the many cool additions to the game, (farming, trapping, fishing etc), have made surviving long-term a little easier, and the devs are now trying to get back to the roots of the game a little. Not all players will play PZ the same way, and there's nothing wrong with a player enjoying seeing how big a fort they can build, or how long they can keep their character alive etc for example.

 

For me, and for some players, the problem is that the end game often devolves into almost a "farmville" type existence, and zombies end up being an irregular annoyance, rather than the constant threat that maybe they should be... (IMHO anyway).

 

Let's wait and see how the changes affect the game. The great thing about PZ is that fact it has the Sandbox mode - so even if the changes to the base-game don't suit your gameplay style, there's nothing stopping a player, (and also nothing wrong), with not playing the "Survival" mode, and tweaking the game to suit you.

 

Anyway, hope you give the forums a chance, now back on topic.... (sorry Rath!)

Thank you. I've got to do some farming and was thinking of building a watchtower or something like that. But I always end up looking for trouble like that gun shop in West Point....I want to raid it cause I got all these 233 and 308 rounds but have never found a gun to use them in. As I've said before I love this game I just seem to be unlucky at finding what I need.

 

I like the thought of npc's that might join with you or even be a rival.  My only worry is zeds respawns or more how fast they respawn, cause in other games I've played you can clear a house and start to loot and boom there they are lol. I don't play sandbox cause I want to play it as the gamemakers meant it to be after all they put alot of time into making this great game. Lol and as you say if I don't like it I could play sand box.

[Blasted_Taco]

For me, and for some players, the problem is that the end game often devolves into almost a "farmville" type existence, and zombies end up being an irregular annoyance, rather than the constant threat that maybe they should be... (IMHO anyway).

 

This is what i mostly mean, the zombies become an annoyance more than a threat that killed the whole country, while we can just keep farming away corn in our gardes while we say hi to undead john and martha living in the next house since 4 weeks in.

 

As for the "offensive talk down", i apologize but i didnt mean it to talk you down (also english is not my first language), people actually have a different play style in this game, a friend likes to loot a house and the rest of the day just inventory manage his entire base for some reason, others just dont loot at all but the very basic tools and then just farm.

Also i am not saying i am a master at the game, i am sure you have way more hours than me on Steam for sure.

 

Back at the disscussion part of the game, part of why the older builds and older players find the new builds more easy is because we have SO many new ways to gather food and stuff, also because we have freedom.

 

I guess most people remember about how there was a limited stock of food in the pre-alpha demo, how when you looted the first 5 houses you started to think "shit now i will have to travel to the store building, where there is always a horde there", so you had to start thinking about a way to lure the northeast horde to the south street, but you needed the hammers and nails in that store, so you had to think how to loot tools and food before it rots away in about a few days.

And if you brought a zombie chasing you, god help you defend your safehouse at night,

 

Here is how hordes were Sailorwolf

 

Watching either of those near your safehouse made you shit your pants, i dont remember if with the grey alien zombies you could ran pass them or not, but zombies need a better grip for sure.

 

Also since the map was like, just a single cell it made you fear that you were really closed insde a city where there was no escape, that is no longer possible in the current game, i hope something along the lines of a quarentine gets added when the NPCs are in so we get a similar feeling like that again.

[HumanTarget]

As with everything you guys do I have tons of faith.

Just the one thing with this, as others have said, it will be hard to balance.

If I've set up base in a quiet area or a farm in the middle of nowhere then for the zombies to actively come and hunt me down would feel too scripted. 200 zombies just happened to stumble on this secluded safehouse? I think the veteran players would soon tire of that sort of thing.

I'm sure you'll get the balance right. Complete faith!

[HumanTarget]

Oh sorry just meant to also say I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that NPC's would have a huge role to play in complicating the life of a settled survivor?

I know for this moment in time that there is a way to just get set up and then there's no real need to go looking for danger like you say.

I just sort of assumed it was sort of the downside of a brilliant but unfinished game. There's still some major stuff planned and we are all aware of that. So this flaw (if I can call it that) where you can survive forever will meet it's match when we have NPC's complicating our lives. It's the NPC's imo that offer you guys the best avenue of messing with our settled characters.

[gaunti12]

Fist, thanks for the kind feedback to my post. I don't want the "easy mode" if it sounded that way But I'd like to see the possibility to some day make it to the zombie-proof homebase/community, that survives.

Still every day has death lurking just around the corner. But have me have the chance to beat death again and again, improving my living conditions slow but steady and becoming the last man standing who looks down from his base on the horror shuffling around his safehaven.

 

The problem with lategame is not that its possible at all, but that it does not feel rewarding to make it that far

 

I want to share another idea, that would make the game harder, more realistic, and would add to the feeling to have lost civilization:

 

What about the greatest source of death ever? Infections. If you get scratched (with new and higher chances to get scratched while fighting/doing carpentry/climbing fences/broken windows) there could be a slim chance of the scratch catching an infection that has a high chance of killing you and can only be countered with antibiotics (which would be scarce and irreplacable). If you try to cure the infection with staying well-fed it could work also, but take time and has a very low chance of survival.

[Viceroy]

This thread and the discussion thereof, future plans and game balance. I am all for it, this is what I have been waiting for!

 

I remember the days of hearing that knock on the door... Then another... And another... Pissing yourself as you are almost too afraid to look out of a window...

 

I am so happy I could probably take a good three punches to the face to get back to normal levels of gloom.

[EnigmaGrey]

Not to mention the act of looking out of a window (or watching a poor NPC be overwhelmed) be a dangerous proposition.

[Missing - Presumed Zed]

Oh sorry just meant to also say I assumed (rightly or wrongly) that NPC's would have a huge role to play in complicating the life of a settled survivor?

I know for this moment in time that there is a way to just get set up and then there's no real need to go looking for danger like you say.

I just sort of assumed it was sort of the downside of a brilliant but unfinished game. There's still some major stuff planned and we are all aware of that. So this flaw (if I can call it that) where you can survive forever will meet it's match when we have NPC's complicating our lives. It's the NPC's imo that offer you guys the best avenue of messing with our settled characters.

 

These are my thoughts exactly, especially if an established player safehouse attracts NPCs looking to raid or team up (with all the drama that entails).

 

I'm not complaining about OFLGBKYBYGT - the difficulty increase is welcome and a lot of the mentioned plans are long-requested additions - but NPCs should disrupt the status quo more than any other tweak you could make. Although the reintroduction of hordes is a close second. 

[migulao]

How many zombies will be in a horde? I've never got to see them so was just wondering how it use to be. It had me thinking maybe setup and stock a couple of backup bases to jump around too unless hordes are say 10 to 15 zeds.

There will be as many zombies in a horde as in a f*ckload.

So... alot.

 

In my opinion, you don't really need a second safehouse in this build, just focus on your current one.

[SailorWolf]

Thank you for the horde pics Blasted_Taco....damn that's a lot of zombies      

[Johnny]

My best time right now is 15 days.

 

Now, it's going to become 3

My best is 15, yet still some how, I gather enough food to survive for 2 months....

[f3rret]

I am very happy to hear that this is the direction the game is going.

[feral_donkey]

Sounds good to me.   I havent played in a few months due to the low difficulty for experienced players.     I figured at some point balancing would show up on the agenda again.

 

I was counting on NPCS to bring the difficulty up.   I know I can stay alive but keeping NPCS alive?  I expect trouble.

[Jatta Pake]

tl;dr summary of the below: More than re-balancing is needed. PZ needs more events that increase the difficulty as the game goes along.

 

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I see a fundamental conflict in the game design that will pose some challenges with increasing the difficulty of the late game.  The primary conflict being that as an rpg game, players expect their characters to develop and progress over time.  This means that starting at Day 1, the longer a character survives, the more a character has. More stuff. More skills. More dead zombies.  Lowering any of these doesn't necessarily change this fundamental dynamic. Meaning the "Beginning" game will always remain harder than the "Late" game phase for the simple fact that characters will have more in the "Late" game.

 

I'm not sure you can make any global balance changes to the game that can alter this dynamic. For example, let's say you make building a safe house a Carpentry Level 4 skill.  You haven't actually made the "Late" game harder, all you've done is made the "Beginning" game phase last longer. A character with Level 4 skill will be significantly more advantaged later in the game than when he or she started. So more than global balance changes are needed.

 

Global balance changes also need to be balanced against players' expectations of progress.  Making it insanely hard to go from Cooking Level 1 to Level 2 will reduce player satisfaction in the game. Players will feel like they are forced to "grind" skills to make any progress at all. Players need to feel they are getting rewarded for making good decisions.

 

I think the Water and Power events offer a template for a solution. These are triggered events that increase the difficulty of the game as time goes on. The game is easier in the "Beginning" when you can get water from any faucet than in the "Late" game when water is shut off and your sources of water are limited.

 

The upcoming "Erosion" feature may also increase the difficulty with the Winter season if Winter becomes harder to survive.  I think the "Late" game can be enhanced by additional events that make the game harder while preserving a player's sense of progress by getting more (stuff, skills, dead enemies).

 

Event ideas:

• Stagnant Water. Water becomes stagnant a couple months after start. Characters need to start boiling all water or risk illness.
• Growing Hordes. Hordes grow or bigger hordes migrate into the game over time. Maybe every three months the hordes grow in size and power representing the natural clustering of zombies attracted to each other's sounds.
• Wild Predators. Wild, feral animals migrate into the game over time. Spring could be especially dangerous as wild animal populations explode due to the lack of humans. Bears and wolves could pose a unique threat - with their sense of smell and speed being better than an individual zombie. Plus bears can climb shit. Now picture a bear with rabies. Now picture a rabid, safehouse climbing bear with a taste for human flesh acquired from eating human corpses.
• Spring Storms.  Existing and player built structures could be damaged or destroyed randomly during Spring storms. Meade County, Kentucky has had five tornadoes since 1987. Storms and high wind could knock down walls.  Lightening strikes could cause random fires.
• Summer Diseases.  After a year of the walking dead spreading filth and rot across the map, diseases and infections could appear in game. Players could face bacterial infections like Bubonic Plague that require rare antibiotics. Or viral diseases like Malaria. And that's just the tip of the iceberg of diseases already found in Kentucky. I am personally fond of Tularemia, a zoonotic disease from rabbits. A simple tick bite can result in primary septicemia (blood poisoning) in 3-5 days.
• Violent NPCs.  Perhaps a year into the zombie apocalypse, nature has culled the human population of our most civilized members. New NPCs migrate into the world with a decidedly more desperate and hostile nature. Gone are the NPCs who were willing to band with you to survive at the beginning, and in their place emerge raiders, warlords, and savages.

I don't think it hurts the game if players know more bad events are coming in the future. It builds upon the sense of dread and terror knowing these events are coming. But it also provides a sense of accomplishment for surviving for long periods of time.

[deprav]

I like all your "late game events" ideas ! It feels like a logical way to raise the difficulty through a thoughtful succession of world changing events.

But there are few things I "disagree" with in your post :
 

 

I'm not sure you can make any global balance changes to the game that can alter this dynamic. For example, let's say you make building a safe house a Carpentry Level 4 skill.  You haven't actually made the "Late" game harder, all you've done is made the "Beginning" game phase last longer. A character with Level 4 skill will be significantly more advantaged later in the game than when he or she started. So more than global balance changes are needed.

 

Global balance changes also need to be balanced against players' expectations of progress.  Making it insanely hard to go from Cooking Level 1 to Level 2 will reduce player satisfaction in the game. Players will feel like they are forced to "grind" skills to make any progress at all. Players need to feel they are getting rewarded for making good decisions.

I think you have to keep the profession overhaul + hobbies in mind ! Starting choices will have much more impact and it will be pretty much impossible to be good in every competences. That will add more weight to the RPG part and completely change jpw the player will percieve leveling-up ; less grinding, more rp-friendly leveling.

I don't think your ideas and TIS' desire to make the game harder from the start are incompatible, they're actually pretty complementary ;o

I think what's important  in that thread is the apparition of the beginner mode, which means TIS will be able to make the normal survival much harsher and unforgiving, as they planned it to be from day 1 and as any osum rogue-like game should be !

We do need harder combat, more zombie threats, hordes, constant fear of making a mistake, making the construction of a safe haven a really dangerous and hard task [something that would require the help of a group], making day to day survival a real thing.

[feral_donkey]

I agree with the above comment but I think that's a longer term scripting solution than is being discussed here.     It would be nice if the zombie apocalypse was just the first cliff to fall over,   then the water and power shutdown cliff,  then another,  then another.   One after the other just piling up the bad news in a tangible way.     Maybe each game wouldn't involve every event but once another one came along you'd know things just became more difficult.

 

Difficulty wish-list wise:  Yes to feral animals (dog packs are a natural),  nuclear plants melting down and inflicting radiation sickness,  etc.   I like the idea of especially violent NPCs mentioned above.  Not just local NPCs with a bad attitude but experienced depraved bands taking up residence.  Like the scary wanderers in McCarthy's "The Road". 

 

A simpler idea might be to just ratchet up the threat of the natural world by increasing the effects of temperature and the need to make fire,  insulate, etc.   Cold winters.  Distract players more with the harshness of the survival simulation and a zombie is bound to catch them unaware.

[iMfRoMtHeFuTuRe]

Good. Very good.

[deadonarrival09]

I think the new changes mentioned are great. The game should defeintetly be harder for those that have established themselves and need more a challenge to survive, day to day. I cant wait to see the new changes and you guys keep up the great work!

[Jatta Pake]

I like all your "late game events" ideas ! It feels like a logical way to raise the difficulty through a thoughtful succession of world changing events.

But there are few things I "disagree" with in your post :

 

 

...

I think you have to keep the profession overhaul + hobbies in mind ! Starting choices will have much more impact and it will be pretty much impossible to be good in every competences. That will add more weight to the RPG part and completely change the player will percieve leveling-up ; less grinding, more rp-friendly leveling.

I don't think your ideas and TIS' desire to make the game harder from the start are incompatible, they're actually pretty complementary ;o

I think what's important  in that thread is the apparition of the beginner mode, which means TIS will be able to make the normal survival much harsher and unforgiving, as they planned it to be from day 1 and as any osum rogue-like game should be !

We do need harder combat, more zombie threats, hordes, constant fear of making a mistake, making the construction of a safe haven a really dangerous and hard task [something that would require the help of a group], making day to day survival a real thing.

 

Yes, I should mention that I do like the idea of a re-balance.  It is very much needed. I am very excited about the profession changes in particular.

 

But in my opinion a re-balance alone won't fix the late game issue. By the very nature of the game, characters will improve from their starting position. Picking up a single kitten knife will drastically improve your odds against a zombie as opposed to how you start - with nothing but your bare hands. Looting, raising skills, gaining NPC allies, etc. are all the hallmarks of optimal play.

 

And players who play well will always find the "Late" game easier than the beginning unless the world gets progressively more difficult to survive over time.

 

Your construction of a safe haven is a good point. What happens after your character and your group has successfully constructed a safe haven? You are safer than when you started, right? It may have been incredibly dangerous to build the safe haven, but once done and with all other things being static, you are either 1) safer than before (like it is currently) and need new challenges for your late game, or 2) not any safer at all - in which case doing the incredibly dangerous building mission was pure folly and a waste of time and resources. Best to keep moving and never select the Carpenter profession.

 

Now if the world gets progressively more dangerous, characters can loot, develop skills, and build to their heart's content, but it won't necessarily mean things will be easier down the road. Maybe the character didn't stockpile enough loot to last the winter. Maybe the character didn't prepare for the springtime arrival of rabid bears that climb up into the sheet rope window entrances. Maybe the character let that horde a block away grow too big and now it's on the move.

 

You can counter the progression of the characters with a regression of the game world. Maybe you constructed the safe house which extended your life several months, but now you need to deal with the headache of nature's fury destroying all your hard work. Or maybe the close quarters of the bunker means you and your group are all more susceptible to getting sick with the arrival of diseases. Mo money mo problems.

 

In any event, I agree that the ideas are not incompatible. Ideally, I want to see all of the things you mentioned get balanced with a regressing world that becomes more deadly day by day.

[meestah009]

I'd rather have NPC's (both good and bad) than a rebalance.  I think that would add not only more difficulty but, more importantly, more fun as well.  Just getting back into PZ after a long time and from a few other topics I see NPC's will still be a thing.  Can't find any info on an ETA though and I'm hoping this rebalance isn't taking priority over NPC's. 

 

"Just play online if you want other survivors."

 

Never tried it, never will.  Not giving anyone the satisfaction of killing someone who just joined the server.  This is why I avoid most games that allow griefing.  So yeah, let's get those NPC's in there already please.  I got this game last year looking forward to the NPC's.  A year later I check in and now the big news is "rebalancing"??

[Darrien]

I have to agree with the changes. On my private server, I run the Dried Fruits, Juices, Canning and Garden Hose mod which once I fortified the school second floor in West Point and farmed on the roof, I was practically safe from anything to the point where I didn't even have to leave my safe house and just could keep on farming.

 

I do hope the zombie migration issue is resolved, I posted a screenshot of some tests I did on a MP server, by using the meta events, after awhile the zombies bunch up in a straight line, apparently at a chunk border and not going any further than that.

I'd rather have NPC's (both good and bad) than a rebalance.  I think that would add not only more difficulty but, more importantly, more fun as well.  Just getting back into PZ after a long time and from a few other topics I see NPC's will still be a thing.  Can't find any info on an ETA though and I'm hoping this rebalance isn't taking priority over NPC's. 

 

"Just play online if you want other survivors."

 

Never tried it, never will.  Not giving anyone the satisfaction of killing someone who just joined the server.  This is why I avoid most games that allow griefing.  So yeah, let's get those NPC's in there already please.  I got this game last year looking forward to the NPC's.  A year later I check in and now the big news is "rebalancing"??

You shold probably try private smaller servers that just want cooperative play. I can agree with the annoying griefing on mp servers.

[deprav]

-zweepd-

 

Yep, I agree. I think they already had in mind a progression of world-changing events. I know for a fact they were mentionning "the military" as an event/point in time from which military troops would patrol the map and kill on sight. But that was back when the map was closed with a quarantine scenario, I don't think that's the case anymore.

Anyway, I think we can trust them for late game world-changing thingies

 

 

I'd rather have NPC's (both good and bad) than a rebalance.  I think that would add not only more difficulty but, more importantly, more fun as well.  Just getting back into PZ after a long time and from a few other topics I see NPC's will still be a thing.  Can't find any info on an ETA though and I'm hoping this rebalance isn't taking priority over NPC's. 

 

"Just play online if you want other survivors."

 

Never tried it, never will.  Not giving anyone the satisfaction of killing someone who just joined the server.  This is why I avoid most games that allow griefing.  So yeah, let's get those NPC's in there already please.  I got this game last year looking forward to the NPC's.  A year later I check in and now the big news is "rebalancing"??

You do not seem to be a forum regular ;o

Nothing takes priority over NPC work, it's a gigantic work that takes time. I don't know if you read Mondoids but NPC are mentionned pretty often so we can have an idea about the state of their development, and things are looking good. That's some 2 or 3 months old news, they're gettin' there and nothing you'll say will make it faster, just be patient.

This rebalancing isn't a new huge workload on their shoulders, it's a "redirection" that will happen on the long term. The beginner mode will allow them to make us suffer. ;D

As for multiplayer, you really are missing something ! There are some private and whitelisted servers, some are RP and some ain't, in which griefing is out of the picture and there's plenty of fun to have.