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"Shitty week for Video games"


deprav

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I'm not quite sure what to make of that TB incident to be honest..

 

He voiced his opinion and he criticized, TIS. To be fair around that time, there was a lot of it flying around. I think it's safe to say that feelings have probably died down now since they did (in my opinion) come back stronger.

 

 

One thing I've noticed is that TotalBiscuit seems to be in the background of all these things. Is he a shit stirrer? I don't follow him so I can't make an informed decision.

 

Also finally one more thing - even if this chick had been using her God given talents and assets to help her career along by shagging some twat reviewer (which I'm not saying that she has) then:

 

I don't think he's being a shit stirrer, I think people are shouting for his opinion and he's giving his opinion. Can't blame the guy if he's wanting to get people to shut up.

 

Not that I'm into TB or anything, but I do think he can get shit in just for doing what people wanted him to do.

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Oh boy, this is gonna be a long one.

I'm gonna start with the most annoying topic: Anita Sarkeesian.

So, Anita is what people call a Feminist (In that she does nothing constructive, makes sweeping statements, and does nothing to change the situations she thinks is "oppression". I won't rehash the arguments but I will link you to some good videos regarding it:

Anita Sarkeesian:


Explains her blatant lies about the content of video games.

One good quote is: "The player cannot help but treat these female bodies as things to be acted upon."

Don't tell me what I can and cannot help as if you know me better than I do.


Honestly can't stand The Amazing Atheist most of the time but he makes some pretty good points.

Another good video:

Sarkeesian and those like her are proffesional victims, their profit lies in the fact that they bait the trolls. Baiting the trolls yields attention and who dislikes trolls? Everyone! The following attentions gets them empathy.

Feminists want people to believe that only women are trolled, and then they "Rally the troops" and yield what? MORE attention.

 

So here's the cycle:

1. Feminist posts something (Usually nonsense) that they know will attract the trolls

2. Trolls (Being trolls) come for the bait (They're not smart creatures)

3. Feminist responds to the hate especially targeted towards them (e.g. feminists are largely what? Women? How about rape? Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner).

4. Trolls feel good and they continue to harass.

5. The internet "Reaction Brigade" posts, comments, shares, and encourages the original troll bait all the while uplifting and making the feminist viral.

6. Repeat from 1.

But of course you know who says it best:




As far as the Quinnspiracy goes, did she possibly lack journalistic integrity? Maybe. Does that mean it's okay to harass her? No. Does that mean that questioning her potential lack of journalist integrity is hate? Absolutely not. I don't know much about the incident (probably because I trust game review sites like I trust someone selling discount drugs out of the back of their van) but is it entirely reasonable that she could be guilty? Yes. But here in the U.S. we're forced to assume that people are innocent until provent guilty (Well kinda, unless it's rape in which case we're turning it around because we're giant flaming hypocrites).

 

As far as swatting goes (New to me honestly) it's just another one of those acts of blatant of disrepect towards everyone. If you expect me to be suprised then sorry I'm not. Abusing police resources for petty gain has always been a thing (I can give a rather exhaustive list if you'd like) so no I'm not surprised they're "Doin it for the lulz".

All in all none of this is gamer culture; it's a mass of imbeciles at the internet.

Speaking of the internet:

Welcome have you been here long?

Not sure why the videos auto embedded, wasn't really necessary.

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@Xynodus

[ also pissed ]

Nice image on the video "only feminists get trolled ?" ; not sure you can even start to reach out to not-already-convinced-others with stereotypes like that though.

So let's say these journalists, who happen to be women, are terribly biased by their ideology, and dismiss possible constructive criticism right away as misogynistic.

Wouldn't it be possible, that some people who flag them as feminists, and take offence in the fact that no men harassment is reported ALONG with a woman's, wouldn't it be possible, that some of these people are biased themselves by their upbringing, by their testosterone, by their ego being hurt by words like "oppression", "sexism" ?

Can you rule that out ? I'm an heterosexual male, but I can't, for example when I get pissed at not being able to join LGBT-only events, or when I can't bear to hear that a man can't be oppressed by women (even if I know i'm playing with semantics here).

It feels like people are interpreting anonymous social criticism as a way of saying "all men should go emasculate themselves", and, fearing for their manhood, vehemently reject the critic and the criticism it altogether.

So personally I can't help it : the more people keep talking about "facts", "statistics", and professional & personal integrity, the more it just blatantly addresses the underlying question of their motive for doing so, which is very much XY-pride related.

PS : i know absolutely nothing about these two women, but they already have my sympathy thanks to you.

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Ok, so I'm totally going to cherry pick a point, because I'm pretty tired of seeing this crap on reddit and twitter for the last two weeks, so I'm not going to go point-by-point on this one.

 

forced to assume that people are innocent until provent guilty (Well kinda, unless it's rape in which case we're turning it around because we're giant flaming hypocrites)

 

False. Very false. In fact, over here in the UK, it's often the victim assumed to be making up the accusations, to the point they're not seriously investigated. Or race relations gets mixed in. Suffice to say, it's way messier than can be summed up in a simple sentence.

 

Go read this: https://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/maria-marcello/i-was-raped-at-oxford-university-police-pressured-me-into-dropping-charges

 

All of those anti-Sarkesian videos are basically using Straw Man arguments. In other-words, they're crap. They're cherry picking, and having played a lot of the games in her latest video (excluding hitman absolution, because it's totally rubbish, and the adverts pushed it being sexist crap from the get go), I can confirm, they do actually contain crappy tropes as she says. She's *NOT* saying you can't enjoy the game, and ignore the crap. Watchdogs was ok, farcry3 was pretty good (even with the rape scene you were powerless to interfere with). She's not saying that every game is filled with rubbish. She's saying "These bits are bad. Please stop making them bad", which is a perfectly valid, reasonable position to take.

 

And, just in case you thought things were totally crap, one of the current Gods of Geekdom has spoken:

http://uproxx.com/gammasquad/2014/08/joss-whedon-to-anita-sarkeesians-trolls-deal/

 

Edit: A question that's worth asking. If you think Sarkesian is so bad, have you actually watched her videos with an open mind? An open mind, meaning willing to accept a position alien to your own, even when it means you're wrong. We're human, we'll always be wrong about something, being willing acknowledge when you are is a sign of a good person.

Edited by kirrus
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Edit: A question that's worth asking. If you think Sarkesian is so bad, have you actually watched her videos with an open mind? An open mind, meaning willing to accept a position alien to your own, even when it means you're wrong. We're human, we'll always be wrong about something, being willing acknowledge when you are is a sign of a good person.

 

In my (extremely) personal opinion, the Sarkeesian videos raise an interesting discussion extremely badly. I don't believe the best way to tackle and raise awareness of legitimate criticisms with some videogames is to say effectively, "videogames are often sexist, I'm going to make some videos to prove my point". Sure, you can do that as an opinion piece, but it's not research or of academic merit unless you draw conclusions starting from a non-biased perspective. In other words, she raises some extremely good points but it's muddled in with extremely bad points such that it becomes far too easy for people to dismiss the lot, which then defeats the purpose.

 

Conflating issues in advertising with games was one such example. What publishers and advertisers do when selling a game has *nothing* to do with what developers do developing it. Muddling in criticism of advertising in a video about tropes in games... bad idea. Certainly it's something to explore in a separate video - advertising is a waaaaay bigger culprit for this stuff and you could tear it to pieces in a dedicated video. But mixing it in with discussion of games comes across as not really understanding the medium you're criticising to the point that it feels like a cheap shot.

 

Then there's Hitman which *does* actively penalize the player for acting in the manner she shows. Now if that were the *only* game out of all the ones she shows that you had any experience of, it would lead you to doubt the credibility of the rest. It damages her argument to demonstrate that particular component of the game as proving her point. For example, take Project Zomboid. You could make a video where you were a man, and you were playing multiplayer with a group of players playing as women. If you griefed those players, brutally killed them in PvP and stripped them of their clothes, you could claim that Zomboid encouraged misogyny and it would be an even stronger case than Hitman since Zomboid doesn't penalise you for that - in fact, it encourages it since you'd still be alive and have all the loot they were carrying. But it would horribly mis-represent the game since the game offers primarily freedom, as does any sandbox RPG. That's not to say that I don't think there are any problems with Hitman Absolution, just that her example was a piss-poor example of it.

 

I made the analogy as such: When I was Lead Artist in a commercial development studio, I was responsible for judging CVs to decide who would be interviewed. The single most common "mistake" of art showreels is inability to recognise your best work from your worst. Pop 10 outstanding pieces of work on your showreel, you've got an interview. Pop 10 outstanding pieces of work in amongst 10 crap pieces of work, you probably won't get an interview. The worst work damages perception of your ability to far greater a degree than your best work raises it.

 

TL;DR

 

Videos were a great idea, executed badly. With any luck someone else will pick up the mantle and do it better.

 

(other opinions are available)

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Additionally (at the risk of horribly derailing this thread),

 

A few years back I was posting on a blog which was having a discussion on gender issues and I used the term "fireman" at one point. I was immediately jumped on and personally attacked for my sexist language - "It's fire-fighter you sexist pig!". I tried to explain that where I grew up, my entire life thus far, "fireman" has *never* meant specifically "a man who fights fires" - because where I'm from, "fireman" is pronounced "firemun" so the "man" component utterly evaporates and it doesn't come across as a gendered term. That argument didn't wash at all. But why not? Well, I was being judged by their culture, their up-bringing, what *they* meant by the word. But the internet is vast - it includes all cultures, all types of people, and you simply can't hold everyone accountable to Western culture or, in this case, specifically American culture. It was a surprise when The Simpsons used the word "wanker" to those of us in the UK. When American's say "fanny", it's amusing to the British because it means something entirely different here. See also: "fag" meaning "cigarette" in most cases in the UK.

 

Similarly I've seen discussions about how vile the word c*** is (note: I don't like this term personally, but then my swearing is mostly limited to "shit") in the context of this word being used specifically against women. But in large sections of the UK, this word has almost no power and is humourous (like bugger - you daft c***) and is more commonly used against men and, *most* commonly, men who are your friends. The same words are used in many different contexts across the world, but on the internet all these cultures and people are thrown together and problems will continue to arise unless we either: invent and insist upon a global internet language, or accept that words have different meanings and power to different people. The latter, in my opinion, is the more inclusive response. Perhaps in 100 years, we'll have a common internet language, but it's not going to happen any time soon.

 

Now, to bring this somewhat back on topic: I think the same applies to videogames. Show my mum *any* vaguely violent videogame made in the last 15 years and she'd be aghast at the violence. We laughed at Jack Thompson because he just couldn't see how this stuff was inconsequential - he was not familiar with the language of videogames and so judged them superficially. He couldn't see past the guns, the violence, the blood, and see the game. This is no different to the response to Rock and Roll in the 50s, or video nasties in the 80s. To some, The Human Centipede was abhorrent, to others hilarious. People who have not grown up with games often can't see them for what they often are - puerile and mindless entertainment. I think this has happened with games, they've continued to be made using the same rules and language they always have, but recently there's been a huge influx of new gamers and things which have always been just part of the language become seen as problematic. I absolutely do not believe that perceived misogyny in games leads to misogyny in the same way that I do not believe that violent videogames cause violence. HOWEVER, that said, as videogame developers we should acknowledge that the gamer market has expanded and cater to those new gamers.

 

So, to summarise, while some games go a bit far (that bit in God of War from the latest Sarkeesian vid, for example) and that definitely needs addressing, I think mostly what we need is more *variety* of videogames. Rather than change games, we just need more choice.

 

Finally, I do believe there is a place for calling out the shit when people see it. I don't agree with criticizing and attacking Anita Sarkeesian for having the temerity to not like some of this stuff in games. By the same token, however, we shouldn't report on this stuff like it's objectively true - everything she says accepted as fact (especially as she does not represent *all* feminists or *all* women - what she represents is herself. That's all). It's not academic research, it's opinion and we should treat it as opinion (and so should she). There is a middle ground - there's a rational discussion to be had, and Anita Sarkeesian along with everyone else is welcome in that discussion.

 

(other opinions are available)

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(other opinions are available)

 

You've put this twice now and I'm getting rather curious as to what these other opinions are.

 

When you say or write stuff like this it's very easy to present your case as if it's some sort of objective truth. This is just my way of acknowledging that everything I say or write is in the context of "The World, according to Andy" ;)

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(other opinions are available)

 

You've put this twice now and I'm getting rather curious as to what these other opinions are.

 

When you say or write stuff like this it's very easy to present your case as if it's some sort of objective truth. This is just my way of acknowledging that everything I say or write is in the context of "The World, according to Andy" ;)

 

And here I used to be doing it the boring way and putting 'In my opinion' in my philosophy exams.

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Shit, there was something else I wanted to say concerning the femfreq vids but forgot:

 

This

 

...is pretty much the closest we've had so far to a solution. What she's pretty much described here, is the original Prince of Persia game gender swapped and the cutscenes changed. Plus, to be fair, an avoid-em-up sequence with disguises and RPG levelling. Pretty unoriginal though, all things considered.

 

The point I'd like to raise, though, is given the similarities to Prince of Persia... what if Jordan Mechner had been a woman? It's entirely conceivable that the game which Anita Sarkeesian describes is almost exactly what he (in this hypothetical case, she) would have made. Nothing, to me, proves the point that the real solution is simply "more women making games" than this.

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...is pretty much the closest we've had so far to a solution. What she's pretty much described here, is the original Prince of Persia game gender swapped and the cutscenes changed. Plus, to be fair, an avoid-em-up sequence with disguises and RPG levelling. Pretty unoriginal though, all things considered.

 

The point I'd like to raise, though, is given the similarities to Prince of Persia... what if Jordan Mechner had been a woman? It's entirely conceivable that the game which Anita Sarkeesian describes is almost exactly what he (in this hypothetical case, she) would have made. Nothing, to me, proves the point that the real solution is simply "more women making games" than this.

 

Would the gender of the developer really matter though? I mean it's not entirely unlikely that if mr. Mechner had been Ms. Mechner the game could have been the same could it? I mean, look at the team behind Tomb Raider (2013) I'm going to assume the majority of the dev team were men and I think Lara was portrayed excellently in that, she wasn't some big over-sexualised ass kicker with breasts that could put a watermelon to shame, but she wasn't too "Oh please save me" type either (I'm not sure which you'd put that under considering trope/stereotype). 

 

Okay, there was that one scene that lasted a few seconds and was quite uncomfortable to watch, but the rest of the game and her development was fine, would more characters like that not be another good solution? (Don't get me wrong, I am in strong support of helping women get into more technical jobs such as games development/design/whatnot).

 

EDIT: 

I just realized: Lead writer was Rhianna Pratchett .. This might have something to do with it.

Love her dads stuff, too.

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Would the gender of the developer really matter though? I mean it's not entirely unlikely that if mr. Mechner had been Ms. Mechner the game could have been the same could it?

 

It's hypothetical, I'm just saying that the game Anita Sarkeesian describes is essentially what Prince of Persia could have been given a few tweaks. So, yeah, it's bonkers to suggest that PoP would have been that game were  Jordan Mechner a woman just that it's conceivable. Look at Roberta Williams' output, for example. A few more women like her in the games industry during the 80s and this industry could well have played out very differently.

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I agree that there ought to be more variety. I do think it's a problem that women are oversexualized in games and promotional material - the Hitman ads from the Anita Sarkeesian video were particularily disturbing. But at the same time I don't believe in censoring other people's creation - you always have the choice of looking away, of finding something more suitable to your own tastes.

 

But I guess it's hard to find something else when games which use women as 'decoration', as the video puts it, have become the very abundant norm. I've played several of the games that were mentioned in the video, including Far Cry 3 and GTA, and enjoyed them, too. But the lack of women who are there for something more substantial, something other than serving the purpose of being sex objects and accessories to the antagonist/protagonist/hero/anti-hero, it's getting rather stale, and that irks me a bit.

 

I don't think it's necessarily a question of what gender the creator is. I believe a man can write female characters equally well if given the chance, just as women are probably more than capable of writing them uninteresting and decorative. I think what's needed are for developers in general to find more ways to tell their stories, and not rely so heavily on "cheap tricks" like these - and for gamers to speak up and make a demand for variety. So I think it's very positive that these things are debated. It allows gamers to come together and figure out what they want to see made, and developers to discover this and make it.

 

In the end change follows the money. If there's enough support for it, there's a market for it. If there's a market for it, it will be made.

 

As for women working in the gaming industry, I do believe it's getting there. It's becoming more and more common to see women working with making games. Which is awesome for me too, since I want to design for games. :D
In fact, one of my favorite game story authors is industry veteran Amy Hennig. Heard of her? She wrote one of my favorite game series of all time, the Soul Reaver series. Oh, and also the Uncharted series. ;)

 

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Always wanted to play a "Rescue the Princess" style game where you go on an epic quest to rescue a princess from the evil lord's castle only to arrive and find she's an excellent warrior in her own right and has slaughtered half the castle on her way out the door. I like capable women in my games.

 

Not sure if that adds to the discussion or anything. Just wanted to say it.

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I volunteer myself and my sexy hat for calender duty. It's a winter hat so it'll have to be December or January but by the gods I can do it. The hat is flannel as well so I'll need an axe and a log to sit on, too.

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Re: Writing different gendered characters- it's hard. I write (as a hobby) and I've tried to work with female protagonists sometimes. I frequently don't feel I do them justice. I firmly believe that men and women are equal in value, but very different in the way they function. Body types are different, and the way we think is different as well (even our chemical responses are different). You can see how utterly terrible some people are at writing the opposite gender by, for example, reading the Twilight series. I read the first book because I try not to criticize things I haven't researched, and was utterly appalled at how the males were portrayed.

 

I strongly feel that the reason most protagonists are male (as the video above says) is because the majority of gamers are male (as proven time and again by demographics, though the scales are slowly evening out). Making video games, like everything else in business, is about making a product that sells. I would love to see 50/50 men and women in the gaming community, but that just isn't the case currently. So it makes sense to make male protagonists (as people can identify with and empathize with their own gender better in most cases; learned this in college and will happily provide scientific citations if queried). Now, this doesn't justify treating women as objects in games, but it does prove that the "damsel in distress" generalization that video games are frequently painted with is beyond a doubt a fallacy.

 

As per the video posted above, rescuing a loved one is one of the most noble and relatable goals that a person can have. There is more passion in romantic love than family/friend love, so it's only natural that the most relatable and empathetic situation is chosen frequently. It draws the player in more when they have a conflict they care deeply about and relate to; this is simple story-writing at its finest. If you want to draw a line that paints the entire video game industry and all of its constituents in one brush, then you need to provide factual causation that proves what you're saying rather than just saying it and expecting people to take it at face value. I don't think anyone is arguing that there aren't a few specific things that are problems, but if that's the case these should be dealt with individually rather than bashing an entire industry (which is indubitably what some of these people are doing).

 

I will mention one other thing in regards to selling games; while not moral, marketing a game that shows scantily clad women is frequently the most competent way to fulfill your job as a marketing employee. Again, this has nothing to do with what is right, but there is a reason this tactic is frequently employed.

 

I also have some qualms about the "oversexualization" of women arguments. This likely won't be an appreciated opinion, but I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong about having beautiful, sexy women proportioned in a way that people find pleasing in a game. There's been a strong backlash against the "beauty" culture, claiming that women like this are bad rolemodels and that beauty is shallow and meaningless. I find this argument to be a bit disingenuous. Beauty, in many ways, is no different than basic intelligence. It's something we're born with and something we can work to improve. I don't think beautiful women should be shamed for being beautiful, and nor should we tell them that beauty is meaningless. It is meaningful; it should be cherished- beauty is important. It's not any more important than any other trait like humor, intelligence, cheerfulness, and other positive traits. The problem only exists when it's weighted higher than these other traits.

 

I think it's good that we have flawed people in games all around; it makes them more realistic. There should be beautiful people and ugly people, smart people and stupid people, mean people and kind people. Games shouldn't be judged and signed off on just for having an attractive character (in any role, protagonist or minor).

 

There's so many double standards with the arguments, though; I've never seen a feminist who's complaining about the games industry complain about God of War's protagonist, Kratos for being overly masculine and attractive (or the stereotypical space marine's crazily proportioned chests and over the top machismo, as we see in games like Gears of War). This should be every bit as much an issue if what they really care about is human rights. This doesn't discount their argument in any way, and that's not what I'm trying to do here, but I do think that it's worthwhile and right to look at people's motivations. If people like Sarkeesian are heavily influenced by observation bias because, for instance, they only care about forwarding their own agenda and not for truly finding equality for everyone, that's a problem.

 

Then there's the other issue. If the true goal for people like Sarkeesian is to weed out bigotry as much as possible (and not an ulterior motive such as fame or popularity), I would think the natural starting place would be the worst offenders; porn would be a good place to start, which is almost universally demeaning to women and includes such things as rape videos. Another good example would be paperback romance novels (yes, these still exist- if you go to a bookstore or a library they can be found in droves) in which women are almost universally rescued by a dashing and attractive man and fall head over heels in love with him with an utter lack of self control. Even many great literature classics find male protagonists saving female characters (as far as I know, none of the women in Romeo and Juliet pick up a sword whilst the two families are battling it out in the streets). Why is there not a constant, unending fight against these things rather than video games? Perhaps priorities are in the wrong place, but it seems more likely to me that there's simply more people to bait into arguing (badly) about the subject when it comes to video games.

 

If there's one thing I think people on both "sides" can agree on (if you want to put it into such black and white terms), it's that this debate has accomplished very little progress and if anything have embittered both "sides" (again, loathe to put it this way but it's the most blunt way to put it) against each other.

 

I truly don't believe Sarkeesian's heart is in the right place, just like I don't agree that Suey Park has the best interests of women (or anyone) in mind (Nota Bene, personal opinion- this is not based on any facts, just my inferences from what I've seen and how thy've behaved). That doesn't mean that these things don't need to be discussed; it would be best for everyone if someone intelligent and humble (rather than self-serving and attention seeking) would step up to the bat and have this discussion in a rational, helpful manner.

 

The video game industry (and marketing industry) could surely stand to improve, and I sincerely hope they do in the future. I don't think that the hatemongering we've seen on both "sides" of this latest shenanigans have truly improved anything, though.

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I also have some qualms about the "oversexualization" of women arguments. This likely won't be an appreciated opinion, but I don't believe there is anything inherently wrong about having beautiful, sexy women proportioned in a way that people find pleasing in a game. There's been a strong backlash against the "beauty" culture, claiming that women like this are bad rolemodels and that beauty is shallow and meaningless. I find this argument to be a bit disingenuous. Beauty, in many ways, is no different than basic intelligence. It's something we're born with and something we can work to improve. I don't think beautiful women should be shamed for being beautiful, and nor should we tell them that beauty is meaningless. It is meaningful; it should be cherished- beauty is important. It's not any more important than any other trait like humor, intelligence, cheerfulness, and other positive traits. The problem only exists when it's weighted higher than these other traits.

 

I actually never looked at it this way.. It's a very interesting (and I'll be honest: I actually like this trail of thought you've got going in this paragraph) way of looking at it.

 

Ten points for you sir!

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You know what - you guys have raised several valid viewpoints which are well thought out, constructive and raise interesting, creative, philosophical and just downright clever ways of creating games and catering to the public. Sadly one or two of them are ever so slightly different to my opinion therefore I am going to have put the following people on a list for Internet dickery.

 

Kirrus

Captain Binky

Rathlord

Enigma Grey

 

Those posters should report immediately to 4chan for preliminary rape and death threats before giving up their valuable account information to be spread all over the internet. Also please hand over all keys to any comments on your social media sites and prepare yourself for prank calls and possible armed intrusion by armed response teams (so keep any webcams streaming if at all possible).

 

 

p.s. I agree with everything those guys have said.

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