MyTJ

Indeed. I do not believe OP was suggesting a grenade like feature here, but if it were the case it'd be shrapnel on a few feets, (edit : nothing to cause serious damage and your point on not having a gun barrel to channel that explosion into a significant vector was spot on). However, I think OP was suggesting noise and your point is quite eloquent on the minimal impact it'd do. Following that line of thought (including yours with substantialy larger explosions), gathering gunpowder and placing it in a bag could result in a significant enough (yet very costly) explosion to cause a distraction. There would be a lot of more mundane things you could devise at a virtually non-existent cost : large stacks of rocks dropping from a story or two, a rock falling on a drum-like item, etc. Just got to get those sound waves going with significant energy to carry a long way. (edit : they could even be remotely activated with a simple ropes or two, or have more complex trigger mechanism involving small electrical motors and timers) For that matter, I still wonder why a falling tree (chopping wood) does not attract zombies... right now the act of chopping the tree (using item) does in a limited way, but a tree crashing down does not... weird.

Blitz -> Maneuver

Not commenting on any post (see my self made rule in the first post), but as I see it so far it's somewhat divided for various reasons. Can't wait to read more stuff or see more votes to get a clearer feel of this topic

I beleive that in time, there should be a larger variety of skills. This is not a high priority and meanwhile ingenious modders can serve as inspiration for a final product Idealy, I think there should be 6 level of skills complexity. I won't detail for now but might edit later to answer questions, if any. For now I'll just give examples to show the split between categories. 1 - Naturaly occuring skills Everyone can grab a club and wack someone on the head, cavemen have been doing this thousands of years ago (prior to, but relatively speaking around the same time they came up with renewable fire and the wheel). Everyone can attach a stone splinter to a handle, be it a spear or a knife (yes, I'm talking : crude crafting as a new skill that give slightly stronger tools!). The examples could go on but this includes most basic physical skills (stealth, etc.) as well as very obvious and ages-long ones. 2 - Somewhat intuitive skills Hunting, fishing, trapping : everyone that takes a little time studying potential prey will fairly quickly learn it's habits and be able to throw, stones, stab it or trap it (hunting in a broad sense is also a very very old and deep rooted skill). Gathering (foraging) is also a very old skill that would need to be re-explored in conjunction with herborist trait (it's ok it gives some early advantage, but you could in theory eat small doses of everything but the most potent poisonous berry/mushroom on earth and learn from your body's reaction what's good and what's not... and to what degree). Another category of less natural skills, yet strongly tied to intuition is a variety of martial arts and advanced weapon effectiveness. Using advanced ranged weapons fall in this category as well as a variety of defensive/offensive techniques with weapons (what's currently accuracy and guard, except it should be split into two for basic weapons and be cumulative : example - at the basic level you know enough to keep a foe at spear's length... at an advance level you use a secondary object including a secondary bag as a shield and stab from cover). Other more advanced physical skills like gymnastics and the like could be in here as well. The general carpentry, basic metalworking (welding) and car repair (changing a tire, unbolting a seat to put a new one, etc) also fall in this category. 3 - Less obvious skills, yet not beyond intuition Farming, that came a bit later then hunting and gathering did it You can plant things, see how they react and act on sort of intuition... yet in this case prior training or knowledge will go a longer way. Advanced carpentry (a wooden bridge or structural work, for example), advanced metalworking (basic smithing), basic chemistry (acid + base reaction, for example). In the same category would be molding concrete for structural work, smaller stuff like doing a brick or a pot could fall in the previous category. 4 - Beyond intuition for most people, the rare stuff Expert metalworking (smelting), advanced chemistry (making gunpowder, advanced acid solutions). 5 - Beyond intuition nearly for all, the rarest stuff Master metalworking (crafting precise weapon components such as gun parts or bullets), expert chemistry (explosives, expert acid solutions). 6 - Beyond nearly all, the nearly impossible stuff Well, pretty much the rest including nuclear physics and the like. An epilogue, not to be confused with prior categories All of these would need practice, but the later level would also need (a) a relevant background or (b) reading materials and an inclination to learn with some experimentation or (c) reading materials and a ton of experimentation. In all cases, the skills beyond level 3 would be impossible without (a) a relevant background or (b) reading materials. You'll also notice that I discuss the skills beyond 3 less, that's because they are by defenition skills that require more in-depth knowledge then what's been obvious for ages.

With the discussion surrounding another skill related thread, I thought it'd be a good idea to ask this simple question to get a feeling of the community's opinion. If you answer yes, feel free to express which skills you think should be added and if such skills should be freely available or if they should require extra steps because they are rarer and more exotics. If it's the later, feel free to express which steps should be taken to gain access. Also, do you think these should be a low or high priority after the animations and NPCs. Edit : In this post, I won't quote or comment people's posts. I might like a few posts here or there... or if I feel a topic need more in-depth coverage I might privately suggest (once) a new more in-depth. My restriction on commenting posts also include reaction to my answer, if any.

I agree in part that it's "probably far off from being a core game mechanic", however I'm not certain that it need to be left indefinitely to the modding community. At some point it's not impossible to add multiple layer of skill complexity : some easily learn by performing normal tasks (like we have now), some of varying degree to add depth and complexity (as well as long term goals). That being said, I agree that it's not a priority and probably best left to modders (for now).

I understand your point and to some extent I agree, after all, I said earlier : Thus, I agree it's something most people did not do in the early 90s prior to the widespread use of internet and "do-it yourself videos". I also agree that this process is by no mean magical and extremely complex. However, I've made a quick search for books that pre-date 1993 on the topic of smelting in particular (same reasoning as follow would apply to other rarer skills). It took some time because it seems most books on the topic where published after 2000, however I was able to trace at least one to 1979 before I stopped searching. There may be more, but I don't aim at doing an exhaustive research. Disclaimer though, it's a book from two Canadian authors, so unless there are more like this one from American authors, I beleive it would impact on it's availability. For reference : The Iron Blast Furnace - Theory and Practice J.G. PEACEY and W.G. DAVENPORT 1st Edition • 1st January 1979 Copyright © 1979 Elsevier Ltd. ISBN 978-0-08-023218-8 So, don't get me wrong on this : the fact that litterature exist does not imply that (a) it's available, (b) it's understood or understandable by most people, (c) that simply reading it will grant immediate knowledge of a pratical skill. What I'm saying is it's a possible source of information for a very lenghty self-teaching that would imply practical exercices with trial and error. What I suggest, if and only if such skills are added, they would require : (a) an extremely rare (thus expensive) trait to know the basics already or (b) one of a few traits that allow self-teaching by reading technical/scientific materials and experimentation (this would be an extremely lenghty process AND require base materials for experimentation with risks of critical failure). For character without any scientific background or self-learning traits, it would be impossible or near impossible to learn such skills. Those later would have a greater chance of critical failure that could result in injury, death and/or spreading fire. So to sum it up, if new rarer skills are introduce, if any, they should be locked behind extremely rare hobby as you said OR be unlocked through finding rare technical/scientific litterature and taking a significant amount of time reading and experimenting to even grasp the basics.

I agree there is a vast difference between the level of information available between 1993 and 2018, however, I remember either reading things myself or seeing my dad read and/or watch shows like this old house and the like. Information was scarcer, yet still available.

I agree that most people are now too reliant on simply buying things rather then making them themself, however, there is plenty of example of makeshift forges if you take a couple of minutes searching the internet. Those people you see in video or writting articles about it might be able to do it, however (not factoring 1993 vs 2018) once electricity shutdown it'd be very hard to do for the rest of us unless we find encyclopedia and other relevant reading material pointing us in the right direction OR we have a general relevant scientific/technical background (traits). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's easy or that I could do it. I'd manage carpentry well enough but I'm not sure (without having tried it) that I'd manage smelting. I'd probably resort to using ropes and such to make structures rather then nails.

I agree that it would be easier to make crude fittings and/or nails by cutting metal sheets and/or scraps (or filling them). Interesting point on taking planks out of houses, especialy since some of them would already be of the proper dimensions for whatever you want to do (e.g. the stairs support I spoke of earlier). One way I think that could be implemented, would be in a system akin to moving furniture : you could deconstruct in some sort of kit sections and/or whole structures that could be reconstructed elsewhere. Planks and unusable wood could then be salvaged from that kit. As for your example of melting forks and the like to one-step "smelt" fully working bullets, that is indeed a good example of the extreme that should not be met. I agree that some trial and error would and should be involved in skills (especialy more complex ones like eventual forging)... but in the case of bullets, the errors might be deadly with no or little way to test their safety beside using them. What I mean here is i'd never take the risk of making makeshift bullets that might criticaly fail while I try to fire them...

Sorry for the snip, please people read the full thing. I only wanted to react to nails. Sure, custom made nails would not look like the one we use today... but nails go way back! They use to look like this (wide thick, yet thin strip of metal with a slightly wider head and a crude point) : We've found quite a lot of those in an over 100 yo house (more like the first one on the left), who knows what they'd look like a few more centuries ago Edit : One more example of crude forge nails...

Mine would be spears, not the cheap quick one we have now out of branches, but carefully crafted ones... maybe with stone or metal tips to pierce through skulls (like the jabbing knifes... but with a reach). It would also involved going far north where I know the population density is extremely sparse (for context, we have the least populated city on earth with 0,5 habitant/km2... this means that vast expanse where there are no city are probably devoid of people for many km at a time until you stumble on a mine or lumber facility). I hate fish, but I'd probably learn to love it in time As for stairs, they are fairly easy to do : take at least 2, ideally 3 very large spruce plank (ideally 2x10 or 2x12) and put square grooves angles at regular interval in it, tilt those planks 45 degree and place planks on the bottom of each of those grooves and you got a perfectly (yet crude) working stairs. Now it's going to vibrate a lot when you go up and down but it'll hold even if you move a fridge up/or down. Ideally you should fix it to at least one wall structure nearby (made with 2x4 @ 16") so it's more stable... but unless you're having a horde marching up/down the stairs it won't make any difference except comfort. Another very crude design would be to use log(s) notched in the same way... probably more stable since they are thicker then 2". Here's an example of a very conceptually simple stairs (single middle support with lateral anchor, albeit a wider middle support then 2"). It seems to be roughly anchored at each 16" as would a normal stair be. Edit : I have the chance of having a dad that has a woodworking hobby and parents that spent most of my adult life renovating and/or building houses... having helped a little I guess I'd have some sort of a trait in carpentry... something like hobbyist carpentry maybe.

This

I've made a post a while back about how various wood have various uses, the harder (maple) is not always the most resilient (I agree). But then the flexibility or resilience of the material take out a bit of the kinetic energy (very minor for all intent in this game). I have to strongly disagree here. Bones are not stronger then steel, at least when at a perpendicular angle to the fiber. It takes an astounding minimal amount of force to break a bone when at or near a perpendicular angle. Parallel or directly on the same direction as the fiber, yes... it's it's job to be resilient. Have you ever broke a finger throwing a hammer? I had and it was in less then 2' acceleration with a hammer (do the math using average acceleration swing + hammer mass). A well placed hammer or bat swing perpendicular to the bones will crush it. Question is, in the case of a bat (since most of the weight is in the bat itself), how will it react to the same force? (a hammer head will dissipate part of it through the metal head that's unafected or nearly as such... the handle getting the residual impact force (after sound, vibration in part, ect)) I've done maths recently to discuss falling damage, a single story fall will get you up to roughly 27 mph. But even at that speed, depending on how and where you land, it does get fatal (using the kinetic energy of a normal human being). The same kinetic energy for smaller mass requires a lot more speed (in some cases ridiculous amount of it : edit : think a bullet that's virtually massless... it requires incredible speed to match the kinetic energy of a larger mass). But even a fraction of it, well placed, is enough. Even at 15 mph (let's say it's running speed), considering only part of your body mass due to the vector (say the head and shoulders), if you run blindly into a wall without any form of protection you'll either get a fracture or a more serious injury. Btw, I did read your post and I agree, smaller more resilient objects (including hammers) should have more durability. Larger, bulkier objects should have less (in a rebalanced system).

Or maybe make shards out of them for crude weapons (as with chip stones, but more choices). Think a serrated spear with "fangs", or a hook to pull a zed in (secondary) so you can instantly use a jab insta-kill Edit : Oh wow, I like that one-two punch idea of a secondary hook to drag a zed followed by a knife insta-kill!

Sadly : no. I'm up for more in-depth features, even putting some sub-skills on the existing ones. But I'm not up for a total stat revamp. It's working well as it is. Keep up the good work though, keep the ideas comings because people may like it or it may spark more ideas. Maybe ideas to split the existing skills? I'd get behind that and/or offer my input in an heartbeat.

So, a rant in another post gave me this idea : molding structures to pour more permanent materials into the definitive structure. Essentially : wood rot, metal rust. To a lesser extent concrete delaminate. What if you could make rain collector, composter, and a lot of the other existing crafting recipe out of other materials by molding them, then pouring the definitive material in place (then removing the temp mold gathering part of it's mats back). You could make rain collector out of molten plastics (or concrete), same for composters... but also walls, fences, etc. What need to be added is "blueprint-like molds" you can craft with carpentry/metalworking, then as the multi-stage walls you click on them to add the proper mats (mixed concrete, melted plastics). Melting plastics does not require a very hot forge like some mods do with metals, a small pot over a fire will do (but with a lot of fumes, better make this outdoor like generators). Mixing concrete is not hard, you can even add to the volume with a little gravel (up to a reasonable point where it'll be weaker then pure cement). If we had wheelbarrow, we could mix it in there then use a shovel to pour into the mold. (extra : a wheelbarrow would be extra useful to carry stuff without being encumbered... yet impairing movement slightly).

Failing that, as with other unprotected wood structures, there might be a decay factor added. One does not preclude the other (having more resistant recipes and lower less durable version). For that matter, and I'll make it a separate suggestion, it'd be good to add plastic molding (building various forms out of temporary mostly reusable wood, so you can pour melted plastic to craft a more permanent structure... after all in the early 90s there was little or no biodegradable plastics available).

So I've built for the first time a composter since it's available and I was bewildered by the recipe : planks + nails. When you craft rain collector, you obviously need an impermeable liner so the water does not leak (in theory, I've seen pure wooden barrel hold water in the past). But another obvious reason is that you want to prevent wood decay from all the humidity. Composter should use the same principle to protect against moisture from the decaying food, maybe not as critical as water seeping out, but as necessary for long term preservation. Composter should mimic rain collector, but due to their apparent bigger volume, should require more mats. Current planks and nails are ok, but I suggest we add 5 garbage bags into the recipe.

Indeed

Since we can use Clothes and Ripped Sheets as fuel in campfire, it would make sense to be able to use Towel and Dishtowel as well. This is especially true of Dishtowel that can be used as fuses for Molotov (like Socks and Ripped Sheets that are both usable as fuel). While on that subject, Underwear should be usable as well, except that they might be OP compared to Clothes if we base the burning time on the number of Ripped Sheets they can produce.

Maybe it's just me that has not seen erosion working for long enough, but does tiles that have had the dirt removed eventualy regrow grass? If not, I'd like to add that to your suggestion that I like. Since the dirt was removed, I'd suggest a 2 step erosion process : first the dirt is restored (and can be taken again), then the grass regrow. In your suggestion case, I think a 1 step erosion should be ok since the dirt was not removed.

Oh yeah, we definitely need a use for the stones and a home made barbecue pit is a great idea!

Good idea There could also be a possibility to make coal with wood, or even use wood in a grill. A new item type could be available in certain markets : wood chips of different variety for flavor

The problem So I noticed that recently, frozen food can no longer be used in recipes such as soup or stew. I don't agree with the change as IRL it's possible to use frozen food while cooking (frozen veggies in stir fry, soup, stew, etc.) There are actualy quite a few lines of items that are meant to be ready for cooking straight from the freezer. I'll grant that it adds a bit of time to the cooking as the heat first thaw them before cooking them, although the thawing process is quicker then at room temperature. Now, frozen vegetables pose no problem with the actual cooking system as you can always use part of the bag and keep the rest for later (for now that applies only to frozen peas). Other produces may pose problem as, when frozen they may be hard to cut short of using a saw. There could be two simple solution to this : Use them whole in a recipe (think about a few whole carrots and potatos in a stew instead of bits of them... you can always cut them with your fork or knife when your about to eat them or when you're serving bowls). This lead to some wasted food value compared to using parts of the ingrédients, but I'm ok with that. I agree though that there's a risk of confusion for new players unless there's a warning message of some kind... which would clutter the UI so I don't think it's a good idea. Status quo : Don't use them until they thaw. I don't like this system because it forces to do cooking in two steps, taking time out of other activities such as : farming, fishing, carpentry, etc. and worse of them... looting (because unlike the others, you need to move significantly far away from your base to do it). The opportunity Now, I could simply suggest the first solution, and that would be fine. But I think this offers a greater opportunity at a better solution. What if, beside canning, we could prepare vegetables (and maybe other ingrédients too) so they can be put in freezer bags and frozen. This is a simple process my mom and her mom (and now me) have been using for décades (if not more) to keep part of a summer's garden harvest for winter. Sure you won't be able to use those in any salad worthy of the name, but very convenient in soup, stew or sauce for pasta... But why stop at preparing single ingredient for freezing? Why not prepare mix of veggies for future stir fry/soup/stew? Let's show that freezer some love and make good use of those new and improve generators