Ontogenesis

I can half see that happening...

Finally, we're moving a head.

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

I can half see that happening...

Um, searching for 'zombies' on piratebay... Back in 0.1.5d

Um, searching for 'zombies' on piratebay... Back in 0.1.5d

"Anything is art, so long as someone will buy it."

I AM SHOCKED AND APPALLED BY ALL OF YOU.

Folks, that's what these things are actually called. Stop watching ao much porn

We talk through stuff internally, and we act as each other's checks and balances. It all works out pretty well

In reply to the above, I hope you don't mind if I summarise the points as I understand them so I can respond:
 
1) Too complex of a system for a single problem, with the inclusion of others it would be too much
 
Agreed. However, I consider depression and anxiety to be transdiagnostic, that is, no matter the 'diagnosis', these still feature frequently. I actually believe it would be a mistake to include any more than those two disorders. Personality disorders would be oversimplifed to interpersonal problems, and thus just be irritating. With bipolar disorder it would be difficult to represent manic/hypomanic states with them either being greatly beneficial or taking control from the player. Schizophrenia and it's variants you... could probably do, though the player would quickly realise, although there are ways of countering this. In all though, if you were going to do one or two, and do them right, it'd be depression and anxiety.
 
2) 'Rolling' schemas might interfer with desired play style
 
True. Like any sandbox game, it would be good to either set them yourself, or have the option to randomise (and be unknown). However, it would spice things up if they were rolled for the NPCs in the game. You would have to learn what NPCs are sensitive to what, and how to manage them more easily, without them exploding, being offended, getting depressed, or leaving the group (through repeated abuse). You could use the last one to deliberately press buttons if you wanted to provoke someone for whatever reason, although have to hide it from other group members or be kicked out yourself.
 
3) Benefits for being happy/good state of mind
 
Also agreed. I tend to think of happiness as the result of: the absense of something negative, and the presence of something positive. Some people aren't depressed, but they're not especially happy. Keeping up morale, a solid group, well fed, supplied, protected, good relationships, would all lead to a sense of wellbeing. Performance increases for people in good moods (I remember one study where doctors were better at spotting lung cancer, depending if they were in a good mood or not).
 
4) Inclusion of positive/adapative schemas
 
A good idea, I only focused on the maladaptive schemas above, i.e. the ones that lead to problematic patterns (not necessarily personaality disorders though) in a way to provide variability for what leads to depression by person. The system would bode well to include other useful ones too. Although the assumption is that not having maladaptive schemas means you have adaptive ones.
 
Good discussion points here:)
Also, sorry about the second essay

There's a book by Stephen King called 'Misery', where the main character is held hostage by an obsessed fan in order to write another book of her favourite series. There's a scene (leg amputation aside) where she flies into a rage after he writes a dead character back to life by changing the circumstances already written. She's angry because she considers this 'cheating'. I mention this in terms of this suggestion because I think moodles that state 'depressed' is cheating - depression is a diagnostic label that covers huge range of somatic (physical), emotional, interpersonal and cognitive experiences. These experiences should be shown, otherwise the label is meaningless.
 
I propose:
> Include emotion moodle
> Depression that is represented by in-game effects and not just a moodle
> Schemas - rolled at the beginning that determine characters sensivities
 
1) Emotion Moodle
 
Moodles currently show physical symptoms (hunger, temperature, pain, tiredness).
I think it would be useful to include a semi permanent emotion moodle that expresses the characters current feeling. This would provide information on their state. E.g. content, sad, anger, happy, joy, frustration, surprise, love, anxiety etc.
This would particularly come into play within any mental health system introduced into the game, where affective components are generally what defines the experience (even schizophrenia).
 
2) Depression
 
Symptoms (in game effects):
 
- Low mood or sadness occuring frequently and for long periods
- Irritability - quick to anger when interacting with NPCs
- Increased, or decreased appetite
- Increased, or decreased sleep
- Disturbed sleep - difficulty falling asleep or waking in the night
- Tiredness regardless of sleep
- Lack of energy and low motivation - Slower movement, decreased holding weight, fatigue much faster
- Difficulty concentrating - reading skill books is much slower, crafting is much slower
- Memory problems - less xp from performing tasks
 
There are multiple cognitive symptoms (e.g. the 'cognitive triad' or low self esteem) that currently can't really be portrayed. I thought about proposing a 'thoughts' moodle to give the topic the character was thinking about, but it may be too much work to include (would be very interesting though!).
 
Severity:
 
Depression should be a continuum from mild, to moderate, to severe. The above symptoms effects should increase appropriately. Severe depression is crippling, and the PC should suffer appropriately.
 
Causes:
 
See the schemas section. Other could include trauma, upheaval (e.g. losing a long term safe house) or long term deprivation of other needs (e.g. food, water, safety, social etc.). Depression does not fall from the sky, so should never occur randomly, but should always been in context of the characters world.
 
Considerations:
 
- Social support - evidence shows support acts as a buffer against negative events. Those in groups with close relationships have reduced chance of developing depression, and/or it passes more quickly
- Behaviour - currently the game has boredom. Although this is sort of related: depression tends to lead to self-isolation and withdrawal from activites, and thus from any rewarding engagement with the environment. The lack of activities can lead to, or at least maintain depression.
- Suicide - control taken away from the player I consider false difficulty and comes under my 'cheating' category. Suicide should come from the frustration of the player not being able to deal with a depressed charater, and thus reflecting the important element of hopelessness about the future.
- Relapse - the biggest factor that predicts relapse is the number of relapses in the past. The more times someone has been depressed, the more likely they'll get depressed (can explain this if anyone wants further info).
 
Recovering:
 
The most obvious treatments include:
 
- Time (no treatment) - called spontaneous remission, one article states about a quarter of people will recover from depression without any treatment after approximately three months, this goes up to about half in a about a year. Of course this means it can take much longer without.
- Antidepressants - different strengths depending on depth of depression. Risk of side effects. Only treats current episode of depression.
- Self help books - slow recover, but increased protection against future depressive episodes.
- Psychological therapy - if an NPC in the group is trained. Faster recover, good protection against future depressive episodes. Variable effects depending on person.
 
3) Schemas
 
Schemas is a psychological term to describe our knowledge structures. Young developed it into it's own type of therapy (which is brilliant by the way). It describes how our early experiences developed patterns we tend to repeat when we're older, especially in relationships. In the sense in could be used in PZ, is that it could determine how each character is more sensitive to different events, i.e. what makes one character depressed, doesn't necessarily make another. These would be invinsible but used behind the scenes for calcualtions for emotions and onset of depression. Some good ones are:
 
- Loss - losses through death or abandonment are particulary stressful
- Rejection - percieved rejection from groups or their members leads to stress
- Isolation - being alone too long leads to stress
- Separate in a group - part of a group, but not really fitting in leads to feelings of alienation
- Mistrust/Abuse - being robbed or used by other people is particulary hurtful
- Subjugation - being under an authoratarian leader leads to resentful and internalised anger
- Shame - performing acts that the character is shameful of leads later to depression
- Unrelenting Standards - being not the best at something leads to stress
- Entitlement - not being given what they want leads to resentment
 
These could be rolled on each character creation to determine their makeup. Random may mean mean they are more vunerable to a few things, or none of them.

Physically, 24.

I've taken one fake sickie day, and that was to have sex...
However, I'm generally against it. I appreciate what you're saying Rath, as someone who went through some rubbish when I was younger, it's frustrating on the edge. When things started to go well a couple of years ago, I didn't want to ever let go of that, so I generally do extra hours everyday. Also, it's an organasational nightmare if I call in sick short notice.

I've taken one fake sickie day, and that was to have sex...
However, I'm generally against it. I appreciate what you're saying Rath, as someone who went through some rubbish when I was younger, it's frustrating on the edge. When things started to go well a couple of years ago, I didn't want to ever let go of that, so I generally do extra hours everyday. Also, it's an organasational nightmare if I call in sick short notice.

Not to start an argument (and if onto wants I will move my debating with Tomwa to a private chat as this is his thread) but you do know Psychology is more that treating those with mental disorders right?
What do you mean by Psychology is shite?
It is unscientific, it does not have validity, it does not have reliability, it does not have efficacy? Please state by which criteria you call Psychology poo.
Also after that, please state why you may have come to this conclusion. While I may be currently studying Psychology and wishing to become a Comparative Psychologist (thus I admit I am bias in favour of Psychology), I also admit Psychology is plagued with a number of problems, both in it's methodology (significance testing), publications (higher prevalence of file-drawer effect and less incentive to replicate studies than in other sciences) and branches (parapsychology negatively defining Psi and a tendency of wishy washy terminology in some branches). However I also advocate changes in Psychology to address these problems-as the APS have to address the problem of replicability- and your lack of faith in one branch of Psychology, as it seems to be Clinical Psychology, should not marr your opinion of the rest of Psychology as I also have a lack of faith in some branches of Psychology.
In closing if you (or anyone else) wishes to debate anything I have brought up, please say so.
To Ontogenesis, keep up the good work on the blog, it's a delight to read, you have also inspired me to start my own Psychology Blog. If you want me to take the debating to PM's or my own thread to stop it hijacking yours just say
If any of this came off as overly aggressive I apologise, I'm lovely really but I've had a few drinks

Physically, 24.

Well, depending on approach, sychological therapies have a robust evidence base showing effectiveness, hence it is recommended in NICE guidelines.
On a more individual level, outcomes tend to be based on factors of the therapist (good therapists tend to get better outcomes regardless of the approach they use), the 'therapeutic relationship' (i.e. Whether there is mutual trust & respect) and factors of the client (e.g. Are they motivated for change?).
Anecdotedly I've seen some amazing improvements in people in our service, some with 20+ years of problems they thought couldn't change.
How come you didn't get on with it tomwa?