The new Ranged Weapon System

[RobertJohnson]

Hello folks,

 

This is part of the upcoming update (build 28), well, I don't ever say "no ETA" because I'm 100% sure someone will ask

 

AND PLEASE, WE'RE AWARE SOME OF YOU WANT ASSAULT RIFLE, IT'S NOT FOR NOW, NO NEED TO ASK ! - Lovely Dev.

 

TL;DR : A good Aiming skill will now be required for weapons, shotgun is great for begginers, not pistol, also a new weapons and weapons modifications.

 

[Changes on Weapons]

 

The ranged weapon have receive a bunch of fixes/changes, I tried to stick to the reality, even if I never fired a gun.. Meh.

First thing, bullets don't really pierce zombies now, it mean if you shoot a zombie, and there's a zombie behind him, he won't die, but he could take slight damages from rest of bullets (even being knocked back/down and turn as a crawler, yay for crawlers !).

So by knowing this, you already know the shotgun has been really nerfed !

The range of weapon has been slighty nerfed too, their angle too (mostly for the pistol), that mean you'll need to be at the right place to aim for a shot ! No more 45° kill with a pistol

Guns have now a critical chance (modified by aiming skill, but more on that below ), understand it as a "head shot".

For example a pistol can have a great chance of critical, while the shotgun will just blow up zombie chest (in a bloody glory moment !).

Weapon also have a recoil delay, meaning you can't fire like an assault rifle with the shotgun.

It also mean : no more taking a 300 zombies horde with 3 shotgun shells.

So by now, I'm sure you understood that the shotgun is a good weapon to start, and the pistol will be more deadly at end level, because it have more clip, small recoil, less noisy and way better range/critical chance than the shotgun

 

[Take your time !]

 

Second thing I've changed, is the physical aiming and panic influence over guns, you'll now need to aim for a little moment to shot really efficiency, if you run then shot, your shot will likely be far away from your target, but again, aiming skill decrease this malus.

Panic ! Yes, Panic can reduce the hit chance/damage done, panic usually mean trembling hands, so it'll take a good skill to bypass that and make a true shot while you're surrounded by zombies, again, it depend on weapon, a pistol will require concentration, while a shotgun will almost always hit his target(s).

Just stand still, breathe, take your time, and blow that head up. Please.

 

[The glorious Aiming skill]

 

While making my changes to weapon, I saw that the aiming skill barely modify the hit chance, damage and stuff, well, that's the past.

Aiming skill will now influence a LOT of things ! Here's a list :

• Hit chance ! Like really ? It require skill to aim correctly ? Jeeze Devs nowaday...
• Critical chance ! Yup, it's not a FPS : "aim for head = head shot", thanksfully we're in Isometric world, so I can add a skill modifier to this (remind Fallout ? )
• Range ! Range is now also influenced by aiming skill, at least for the pistol.
• Angle ! Well ok, that may sound weird, but because we're in an Isometric world, aiming can be hard, so now, with a better aiming skill, you won't have to be at the perfect angle for a straight shot (again, specially for the pistol).
• Recoil time ! Well, I'm still trying to know how the great shooter can shot faster than others (maybe it's a combinaison of aiming + strength ?)

It mean that you can avoid being violently murdered by a guy with a pistol if he can't really aim with him, you could try to run toward him with an axe and take him down before he got you ! (With some luck tho... )

 

[i'm a blue officier]

 

Ha-ha ! You didn't know I was a cop ? Well, me neither.

So, the police officier profession will now have a bonus to all this aiming, range, critical hits thingy. Basically, a cop will be able to use a pistol even at Aiming level 0.

 

[Weapons modifications !]

 

You love tuning ? You love weapons ? You'll LOVE Weapons Tuning ! Erm, modifications..

So yeah, modifications, they come in various type, scope, sling (or ammo belt), laser, red dot, canon extension, fiberglass stock...

You'll need a screwdriver to mount/unmount them, they'll increase or decrease some stats of your weapon, for example :

- x6 scope : increase your max range, increase the min raneg needed to aim (that's a bad thing, with a scope you won't be able to shoot at close distance, well, you can with some luck..), increase weight and aiming time.

Those modifications will come with some luck directly mounted on the rifle, or you can fine separated parts at a gunstore.

 

I KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ! I have superpower.. Or something, but yeah, I read your mind : You want silencer ?

Well, after many researches, silencer are really rare out there in Kentucky, they are expensive and need a ton of papers/registration, so everything is done for any modders to code them, once you have the sprite you'll just need a new items, check the current weapons modifications to understand, it's really easy.

But trust me, you'll have fun with those weapons modifications (if you don't.. Well, you're not a funny guy. That's not my fault )

 

[WAIT RJ, YOU TOLD ME THERE'S A NEW WEAPON, GIMME MY AK47]

 

Ah. Assault Rifle ? No way. Well, not now

So, let's do a little scheme of the current ranged weapon (list will be huge, be careful) :

• Shotgun have small range, big angle, low critical chance.
• Pistol have better range, small angle, big critical chance (specially at high level).
• ...
• Hey, you didn't write anything on top !
• I'm sure we need a huge range, huge critical chance gun !
• ANSWER !
• Yeaaah, calm down, so yeah, the new weapon is :
• ...
• STAPH IT !
• IT'S A BOLT ACTION RIFLE ! Huge distance, huge critical chance, long recoil time, small clip, so yup, it'll need a lot of practices (understand aiming skill) to masterize that gun, but I swear with it, you can take down lot of danger from a long range ! There's 2 of them, one .223 and one .308 (this one is louder, but more range/damage)
• Oh also, we won't have new model/animation for it now, I'll re-use the shotgun one, but I'm sure Andy will be on it soon, aye Andy ?
• All this text for that ? Really RJ ?

[And for the future ?]

 

I definitely (jeeze, took 4 times to write that word) want to see a bow in game, crafting weapon, silent, powerfull, arrow piercing.. And require tons of skills to be masteized

Also bear in mind that all this number will be balanced (you don't know it, but Chris have a rule for my stuff : take all calculs I do and multiply them by 20, because I suck at balancing things )

I may do an explanation video of it (but be honest here, I totally suck at video recording/editing), with different weapons/aiming skill to show you the difference between a Daryl and.. Well, me for example (oh wait, I had a pistol air gun in my childhood.. I'm sure I'm a beast with weapons !)

 

And now let's have a ton of "I want crossbow/assault rifle/insert OP gun here" post

[Necromatic_Corgi]

This all sounds very smexy I can't wait to be picking off zombie at long range, Will we be able to shoot out of a two story window down to ground level?

[syfy]

instead of asking for an assault rifle, i'd rather ask for something smaller, like a .22 rifle. much better for hunting small creatures than a big bolt action rifle..

 

but really my question i came for relates to shooting down at something from a level above, which would also be good when hunting, especially since we have these to hide out in while waiting for a creature http://pzmap.crash-override.net/#0.8358420469594142,0.09914738270505406,95.39621664406894

[RobertJohnson]

I just fixed it, you're now able to shoot from above level

 

As for .22, I made some research, and it look like the most common rifle in Kentucky is the bolt action rifle, and not the .22, I'm still balancing it, but tbh, it's amazing.. You shot down from great distance, they're too far to gain panic.. Really cool, but under lvl 4 aiming, it kinda suck compare to the pistol tho

[Necromatic_Corgi]

 I would also like a crossbow and a revolver. I hope andy will make the bolt action model soon-ish.

[RobertJohnson]

 I would also like a crossbow and a revolver. I hope andy will make the bolt action model soon-ish.

 

CONGRATULATION, YOU'RE THE FIRST !

[Necromatic_Corgi]

I just fixed it, you're now able to shoot from above level

 

As for .22, I made some research, and it look like the most common rifle in Kentucky is the bolt action rifle, and not the .22, I'm still balancing it, but tbh, it's amazing.. You shot down from great distance, they're too far to gain panic.. Really cool, but under lvl 4 aiming, it kinda suck compare to the pistol tho

Would it be possible to be able to have the guns on your back when you aren't shooting? Like it could have a timer for how long it stays out when not using it. So you would stop using it and run, In say 10 seconds it would appear on the players back. And for the pistol, It would show up tucked in to the back of your shirt, Walking dead style.

 

 I would also like a crossbow and a revolver. I hope andy will make the bolt action model soon-ish.

 

CONGRATULATION, YOU'RE THE FIRST !

 

Sorry, I just must have it

[Footmuffin]

pls 2 gib bazooka debs plaes

andn greandns 2

[Viceroy]

pls 2 gib bazooka debs plaes

andn greandns 2

 

This means "thank you sincerely for all the information and kind regards" in Footmuffinlish

[Necromatic_Corgi]

 

pls 2 gib bazooka debs plaes

andn greandns 2

 

This means "thank you sincerely for all the information and kind regards" in Footmuffinlish

 

XD

[Jjoncm1]

I would still have bullets pierce, that's how it happens in real life. As long as the angle is where the bullet or pellets line up. My 80 year old rifle can go through a modern Kevlar helmet, out the back and into another. Imagine how easy it would be able to pierce rotting flesh of a zombie. Shotguns at close range nearly chop people in half so maybe range dependent penetration. 9 mm pistol, unless it's hollow point still penetrates unless it hits something major (granted would penetrates less due to slower speed after exiting the first body). Also is the possibility of different ammo types possible, thinking mainly for shotgun (pellets, slugs) so there is a close and long range option. Also .22 rifles are very common and most gun owners have at least one. Only hunters generally have bolt actions (unless it's an old one) due to the higher cost of gun and ammo. Just my input as a gun owner. Can't wait for the changes! Keep up the good work

[RobertJohnson]

The bolt action rifle have the bullet piercing, for the gun, I'm not sure tho.. Will do more research

[DICE033]

I sent an email to you guys about this a few days ago all about realism & firearms and having someone with real firearms experience consult with you guys on this subject. Maybe I am bitter but it drives me nuts when game developers are way off with firearms. 

 

Whats an assault rifle? I assume you mean something that is black and 'tactical' looking? My 1925 bolt-action Mosin mounted to the wall next to me is more of an assault rifle than the AR-15 you guys are probably talking about as an 'assault rifle.' 

 

A massive misconception with shotguns is the spread of pellets from bird shot and buck shot. This is why people think you don't have to point and aim for home defense with them. This is a great example of 00 buckshot w/ the well known Mossberg 500 (which I presume is based shotgun ammo in the game):


One big hole at 3 yards, 4 inch spread at 7 yards. You won't hit multiple targets with a shotgun unless they are some distance from you. You won't penetrate multiple anything with buckshot either.  
 

I would still have bullets pierce, that's how it happens in real life. As long as the angle is where the bullet or pellets line up. My 80 year old rifle can go through a modern Kevlar helmet, out the back and into another. Imagine how easy it would be able to pierce rotting flesh of a zombie. Shotguns at close range nearly chop people in half so maybe range dependent penetration. 9 mm pistol, unless it's hollow point still penetrates unless it hits something major (granted would penetrates less due to slower speed after exiting the first body). Also is the possibility of different ammo types possible, thinking mainly for shotgun (pellets, slugs) so there is a close and long range option. Also .22 rifles are very common and most gun owners have at least one. Only hunters generally have bolt actions (unless it's an old one) due to the higher cost of gun and ammo. Just my input as a gun owner. Can't wait for the changes! Keep up the good work

 

Shotguns chop people in half? No. No they don't, unless you named a chainsaw "Shotgun." Your gun experience sounds like its a mixture of call of duty and hear-say from a grandparent. 

 

9mm FMJ rounds are going for 21 cents a round, intermediate rounds (.223/x39) are .19-41 cents a round, your larger .308/x54 are .20-.45 cents around. Any soft point round (hunting round) will obviously be more but 90% of the ammo people ARE buying are the cheap FMJ/target cheap rounds, I don't understand any of your logic. 

There are so many ways to make the game fun by including an assortment of weapons, a simple (but still realistic) ammo situation, and have it done correctly so it has the 'wow' factor. In this day of gaming, the firearms area should be an absolute strong part of the game, not something done by fantasy. 


*Quick note, I was crazy about getting a firearm with my characters since I kept dying, eventually downloaded a firearms mod gather a massive arsenal and 2 months into the game, haven't fired a single shot   

[RobertJohnson]

I always try to stick to the realism, even if I don't know shit about weapon (well, I held a Famas one time..), but there's a limit to realism when it overpass the fun.

 

For example, the shotgun, let's say 80% of the people (yup, there's not only Americans out there ) think that the shotgun have a much better spread than you show in reality, and it's pretty handy to keep this for a zombie apocalypse game, assault sure will come, but be also sure I'll do my best to nerf them (like shoting too much in a row make you lose aiming/hit chance, etc..)

 

But well, I'll contact you to talk a bit about weapon, I need some info about range, noise, bullet piercing...

[Pravus]

Quick question, Robert.  I know you specified that the new weapon will be a "bolt-action rifle" and since I'm heavily involved in the firearms modding scene with a strong interest in realism I was wondering if you were planning to implement new code to require the action to be cycled (or at least to simulate this occurring with a sound effect) after each shot.

 

My reason for asking is that currently all firearms are essentially coded to operate as "semi-automatic" weapons with the major differences between them coming in their method of reload.  This has left swingtime as the primary factor available to attempt to distinguish actions like recoil effect and cocking shotguns/cycling bolt-action weapons.  Since recoil is being formally calculated in this update (if I understand you correctly) adding the detail of a sound effect and/or perhaps necessitating a press of the 'spacebar' between shots with shotguns and bolt-action rifles when playing on Hardcore reloading difficulty would be a welcome addition!

[Jjoncm1]

 

I would still have bullets pierce, that's how it happens in real life. As long as the angle is where the bullet or pellets line up. My 80 year old rifle can go through a modern Kevlar helmet, out the back and into another. Imagine how easy it would be able to pierce rotting flesh of a zombie. Shotguns at close range nearly chop people in half so maybe range dependent penetration. 9 mm pistol, unless it's hollow point still penetrates unless it hits something major (granted would penetrates less due to slower speed after exiting the first body). Also is the possibility of different ammo types possible, thinking mainly for shotgun (pellets, slugs) so there is a close and long range option. Also .22 rifles are very common and most gun owners have at least one. Only hunters generally have bolt actions (unless it's an old one) due to the higher cost of gun and ammo. Just my input as a gun owner. Can't wait for the changes! Keep up the good work

 

Shotguns chop people in half? No. No they don't, unless you named a chainsaw "Shotgun." Your gun experience sounds like its a mixture of call of duty and hear-say from a grandparent. 

 

9mm FMJ rounds are going for 21 cents a round, intermediate rounds (.223/x39) are .19-41 cents a round, your larger .308/x54 are .20-.45 cents around. Any soft point round (hunting round) will obviously be more but 90% of the ammo people ARE buying are the cheap FMJ/target cheap rounds, I don't understand any of your logic. 

 

Of course I did not mean a literal chop in half nor am I getting my experience from "call of duty or a grandparent (don't have any alive)" nor do I know what you are referring to in that sense. I have seen some major wounds inflicted by shotgun at close range to the torso which is why I said that (good friend is an officer who worked a case in which a robber busted into a store, chased the clerk into the backroom and was met with a point blank shotgun blast). Not sure if you are talking to me about the prices since I don't see what it has to do with anything about what I said except for the ammo types which I was referring to shotguns mainly.

[k12314]

I'm gonna miss completely decimating zombies with the shotgun. But now the question is...

How the FUCK is anyone gonna get into the mall now?

[RobertJohnson]

Quick question, Robert.  I know you specified that the new weapon will be a "bolt-action rifle" and since I'm heavily involved in the firearms modding scene with a strong interest in realism I was wondering if you were planning to implement new code to require the action to be cycled (or at least to simulate this occurring with a sound effect) after each shot.

 

My reason for asking is that currently all firearms are essentially coded to operate as "semi-automatic" weapons with the major differences between them coming in their method of reload.  This has left swingtime as the primary factor available to attempt to distinguish actions like recoil effect and cocking shotguns/cycling bolt-action weapons.  Since recoil is being formally calculated in this update (if I understand you correctly) adding the detail of a sound effect and/or perhaps necessitating a press of the 'spacebar' between shots with shotguns and bolt-action rifles when playing on Hardcore reloading difficulty would be a welcome addition!

 

I'm still doing research on it, but those type of rifle have a 5 ammo clip, so you just need to get out the bullet, and get another one in (like the pump-action from a shotgun), but I'll work on new sound for guns (well, in fact, it's not me, it's NJ who do the sound.. )

[Necromatic_Corgi]

I hope the new bolt action riflewill look something like the rifle in this picture, When the model get's made

 

[Pravus]

I'm still doing research on it, but those type of rifle have a 5 ammo clip, so you just need to get out the bullet, and get another one in (like the pump-action from a shotgun), but I'll work on new sound for guns (well, in fact, it's not me, it's NJ who do the sound.. )

 

 

Fantastic!  Thanks Robert!

[LackofCertainty]

One thing that stood out to me in the post was the "shotguns will have low critical (head shot) chance" bit.  That part doesn't make any sense to me.  At close ranges, a shotgun should be the easiest weapon to get a headshot with, as it has the advantage of spread.

 

The downside of shotguns shouldn't be a low headshot chance.  The downsides of shotguns are:

1. Shorter range.

2. Large shell size/weight!  (this is one a lot of people forget to take into account for survival games!)

 

Shotgun shells are quite heavy and large compared to other ammunition.  (espcially if you start comparing them to 9mm or .22 rounds)

[Elliohow]

RJ you are one beautiful man, thanks for the overhauled weapon system, its been long awaited.

One question though old chum, is there a range at which the bolt action stops being effective and the pistol becomes a more viable option? That is to say does the bolt action get less effective the closer you are to your target.

[Hangtooth]

I hope the new bolt action riflewill look something like the rifle in this picture, When the model get's made

 

Wow - what game is that from?!

[Necromatic_Corgi]

 

I hope the new bolt action riflewill look something like the rifle in this picture, When the model get's made

 

Wow - what game is that from?!

 

It's not a game, It's a website where you can create a survivor. Tons of customization.

[Kajin]

One thing that stood out to me in the post was the "shotguns will have low critical (head shot) chance" bit. That part doesn't make any sense to me. At close ranges, a shotgun should be the easiest weapon to get a headshot with, as it has the advantage of spread.

Shotguns don't have anywhere near as much spread as people seem to think. At close ranges the spread won't be nearly enough to increase head shot rate.