Guest easy AI opponent Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Realism? eheh, no, for sure. As the game is now, If I got this right, a bucket doing that, should be in the form of something you "build" in game, place on a tile and use like a rain barrel.Considering the purpose (rain barrels already exist) and the small amount of water collected so I can understand "it's not even worth it". If its possible from the game engine i would suggest that buckets would be scavengeable and found in homes just like kettles or pots. Is the amount of tap water you collect in mugs worth it? Anywayyyyy, I'd like to get back on the water collector discussion. People would like to "even the ground" inbetween carpenters and other professions when it comes to accessibility to water, which (re)started the whole "I want to be able to collect rain with plastic buckets and cooking pots just by letting them under the rain" discussion. It wouldn't be an interesting game mechanic at all, either completely OP or totally dull because going through 15 to 50 buckets everytime it rains is rather boring and can't be considered as a good gameplay mechanic. I agree that would be unacceptable tedious and boring but is that not exactly the gameplay for farming? Going through all the tiles for watering the crops? The point of this whole discussion is that you are currently forced to construct a rain barrel in order to be able to collect rainwater and there are no other means to collect water, even though there are in reality plenty of other much more practical/easy methods to collect rainwater (the buckets being one of them). Probably they will be represented in game one day as you suggest. Core of the discussion is the underlying problem that the game currently represents water quantity as a problem where it should be quality. In other words, your bigger problem should not be how do i get water (from rain, rivers, lakes, ponds, puddles, etc.) rather than how can i get my water clean/potable. On this point i like Jatta Pakes idea a lot (http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/12626-mondoid-question/page-2#entry159185). Gameplay wise that would shift your efforts to scavenge for the items necessary for cleaning up your water (e.g. filters, bleach, pot and matches for cooking water and what else you could use) and hence give you a further thing/quest to do... Otherwise your (depravs) idea about water collection is great! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I'm slightly mad (but still lovely) because the devs make an awesome work and do their best to create an awesome balanced game and people allow themselves one-sentence judgements on GOOD features they didn't try yet, or even understand. You have not played the features (feel free to correct me if I am incorrect): you do not know if they are good, just as I do not know if they are bad. I've played it, I can say I quite enjoy it. Does that count?I agree that would be unacceptable tedious and boring but is that not exactly the gameplay for farming? Going through all the tiles for watering the crops? Just because one game feature isn't perfected/might not be the most fun doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse to add a bad game mechanic in Just saying. Otherwise, I don't disagree with you overly much. KY is full of little streams and ponds. I'd much rather water quality than quantity be a problem (for an individual's thirst needs, at least, getting enough to farm with is another story). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest easy AI opponent Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 Just because one game feature isn't perfected/might not be the most fun doesn't mean you can use that as an excuse to add a bad game mechanic in Just saying. On this point i don't disagree overly much. Farming is really finicky. Still it should be possible to place buckets in the rain. Maybe the tedium gives the impetus to look for more advanced solutions (like deprav suggested)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bower Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I smash wells with sledgehammers. The more chaos the better. Z3759xy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deprav Posted January 31, 2015 Share Posted January 31, 2015 I'm slightly mad (but still lovely) because the devs make an awesome work and do their best to create an awesome balanced game and people allow themselves one-sentence judgements on GOOD features they didn't try yet, or even understand. You have not played the features (feel free to correct me if I am incorrect): you do not know if they are good, just as I do not know if they are bad. I can neither confirm nor deny that statement. ;o Thanks ! And I also like Jatta Pakes' ideas, the plumbing/water specialist class does make sense ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moose65 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I smash wells with sledgehammers. The more chaos the better. Wait......wells are actually destructible? Multiplayer griefing to a whole new level...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bower Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Game is supply and demand and I like my citizens living in poverty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmy101 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Again. There are about 6 ways to get carpentry points on start and only three of them are professions and only one of those is the carpenter. Considering the amount of traits and professions we hope to have by 1.0, I wouldn't be surprised if there were 5-6 professions with carpentry points at some point. A character with the hunter trait will start off with 1 point in carpentry to aid from their experience in building traps. With this trait it is identical to how the carpentry XP works now in build 30. People who pick the carpenter will be in for a sharp shock when they discover they suck at combat and everything else apart from carpentry. Carpenter, farmer and fisherman are currently three of the worst professions to choose in solo since they offer points in only one skill. When we say we need to balance it further before release, we actually will likely have to BUFF the carpenter to make it a viable choice since the game has been rebalanced around the new trait/profession system making level 0 a lot worse in all skills, not just carpentry, and requiring professions or traits to be picked to make skills major skills and allow them to start at a competent level and level up at a decent speed. If carpenter ever turns out to be too powerful, we can just up the point cost of that profession and require more negative traits to be taken to allow for it. At some point 'everyone picking carpenter' would cease to be an issue if, taken to silly extremes, you had to pick 20 points worth of bad traits to use it. That's the whole point of balancing. We have the metrics to make any profession or trait more or less desirable or more or less expensive, and by adjusting these over time we can make no one profession better than any other profession, so I fail to see how anyone thinks this is some big problem, I really do, especially considering the massive improvement over the current shitty profession/trait choices. As I said before, if we released as is NO ONE (apart from maybe their first game) would pick carpenter as a profession, as they would unlikely survive a week. Level 0 means you just inherently SUCK at that skill. Level 1 is the old level 0. A carpenter with level 0 in blade and blunt will have a tremendously hard time, so will need to pick hobbies or other traits to make them viable, and pay the cost of bad traits to compensate. The construction worker is a much more viable choice giving you a point in carpentry as well as 3 in blunt. A construction worker who enjoys hunting in his spare time and is handy will start with 3 carpentry, but also have trapping, aiming and a really strong blunt skill. An inconspicuous, dexterous, packrat, handy burglar character who used to be a gymnast at school will be a master at sneaking and will be a master at looting houses quickly, as well as being able to level up carpentry as people do now. People in single player looking at Carpenter as being some OP master profession are seriously in for a shock. I imagine carpenter will be profession used by one member of a group in MP, who will likely have to rely on their friends to defend them and loot. Same goes for once NPCs go in. The whole point is none of you have played it, and are judging it completely incorrectly based on very limited information. And when everyone who HAS actually PLAYED it comes and says you're wrong, you won't seem to accept it. It doesn't exactly encourage us to be forthcoming with any other features we work on or testing in future, if we're going to have to spend a ton of time defending them on the forums against people who are totally making wrong assumptions based on little information, and don't seem to take our or others who have played it's assurances with any weight or credibility. Tired of going round in circles and saying the same thing again and again. valrix, Sieben, syfy and 8 others 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suomiboi Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 -snip-It doesn't exactly encourage us to be forthcoming with any other features we work on or testing in future, if we're going to have to spend a ton of time defending them on the forums against people who are totally making wrong assumptions based on little information, and don't seem to take our or others who have played it's assurances with any weight or credibility.Tired of going round in circles and saying the same thing again and again. Well I do think there's a strong quiet majority who embrace the new system and are waiting for it with a lot of enthusiasm. The fact that they/we aren't opening our mouths is at least in my case not to cause unnecessary hype (which is the other end of adding new features and telling about it). At the same time the other end tell their views openly and with fear that their beloved game will change for the worse, not knowing if this truly is the case. Now we have mostly "negative" comments on a feature based on what people are saying on a single forum. It's like getting feedback in a supermarket. No one gives good feedback in a supermarket. I'll say that I for one am waiting for this feature a lot. It's exactly what I've been advocating on in the forums for quite a while. So I for one am pleased. And I like knowing this stuff when it's coming so please, pretty please try to stay forthcoming in the future too. Leoquent, Sieben and Marinus 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmy101 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I appreciate that Suomiboi thanks, but even if a minority they still can be loud and still soak up a ton of our time repeatedly explaining the same thing. To wrap this up I've attempted to make the best possible Carpenter build I could that had a shot at long term survival skillwise that, god willing, will explain my point. Note I've cleared out the profession points just to illustrate what they are like as vanilla free professions: So what do we have here? We have a character who will never really get the hang of fishing, trapping, foraging, will never likely shoot straight, is thin skinned and crap at guarding and thus has a huge risk of getting scratched or bitten, who will likely never be good at sneaking around zombies, and who will likely never be able to adequately fix an axe. As such he likes to jog so has a shot at getting away from zombies, as well as some experience in fights to be able to handle combat, and enjoys gardening because otherwise he's unlikely to ever manage to live off farming. On top of this he needs to drink twice as much as anyone else (god bless those out of the gate water collection barrels eh? Had to give him lucky because if he doesn't get all the bits required to make a rain collection barrel he's going to run into problems. He also takes much longer to read skill books, can carry less than most people and can't hear zombies approaching properly. Surely you see that 'picking carpenter' isn't some 'all win' choice? Let's compare that to another build... say an 'all rounder' burglar.... Tried to pick similar negative traits to keep things as equal as possible. So you only start with one point in carpentry, but in the long term look at quite how much more the burglar has going for him. It's no harder for this burglar character to create water collection barrels as it is any of the professions in build 30 (for that matter, with another couple of negative traits the burglar could start with 3 carpentry TOO). Sure the carpenter is going to get there a lot quicker, but as of these two builds, all professions at an equal cost, surely you can see that a carpenter is going to have a hard time in other vital skills. Remember, level 0 in any of these slots mean the character will have a REALLY bad time trying to level them up, even with books. AND that those level 0 skills are now a great deal less effective. Attacking a zombie with an axe with level 0 blade will take about 3-4 x the work to kill a zombie than in build 30. Level 1 in 31 is as it is at level 0 now. On top of this, even if people still kept picking carpenter, we could make it cost 4, 6, 8, hell 10 points to pick carpenter, meaning they had to pick another 2-3 negative traits to compensate. Though we won't need to do this. Carpenter has it bad enough as it is. So explain, having read this, why everyone who plays this game is just going to pick carpenter from now on? PS: All hail hunting, handy, strong, rough and tumble construction worker and his mighty zombie bane hammer. The carpenter is a putz at the moment and we need to address that. Leoquent, Svarog, Sieben and 5 others 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Is now a good time to mention I've been playing Project Zomboid for 3 years, spent hundreds of hours on it, and have both: A) Never leveled carpentry above 2 pegs, andB) Never died of thirst, even months and months into playing ? Blasted_Taco and Svarog 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deprav Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 I appreciate that Suomiboi thanks, but even if a minority they still can be loud and still soak up a ton of our time repeatedly explaining the same thing. You should let your special minions take care of the repeated explanations, we like to do it ;d Is now a good time to mention I've been playing Project Zomboid for 3 years, spent hundreds of hours on it, and have both: A) Never leveled carpentry above 2 pegs, andB) Never died of thirst, even months and months into playing ?I actually rarely level up carpentry as well in SP, I generally used to level it up in MP tho, for defense purpose. Never died of thirst either !That's something I'd actually like to do once, die of thirst. But I can see only one scenario in which that could happen. I'd have to settle a camp far from everything and rely only on a few rain collectors, then something would have to destroy them, I should have no materials to re-build them, and be already thirsty to die of dehydratation while I'm trying to reach the nearest building (and getting lost by keeping myself from checking blindcoder's map).I'd like water to be a real concern sometimes. Like periods of drought during summer, rare storms destroying rain collectors (and other player made constructions), maybe a lesser quantity of water in houses after the shutoff, and rain collectors requiring more construction supplies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco1 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 lol,with all due respect,OP was talking about water (and late game), who cares if it's the carpenter or another character... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohbal Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 lol,with all due respect,OP was talking about water (and late game), who cares if it's the carpenter or another character... Well, for the sake of accuracy, I think the OP was talking about the need to pick up carpentry to get water: Is really the only complain i have, i dont like having to be a carpenter to be able to get water, what if i want to be a overweight, asthmatic, anti social NEET in the game? And since it has been already cleared up that 1. We'll probably get other water collection methods 2. You have several ways to not suck at carpentry without picking the carpenter profession I think we can all chill out and wait for tomorrow's Mondoid to get crazy about the next feature preview Jatta Pake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco1 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Yes, obviously. I am sure if it was the rocket scientist to have that specific skill he would have said rocket scientist, so it's the carpenter, but it could be someone else, the problem would still be the same. He's talking about water (and late game, but not directly), that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marco1 Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Anyway, that's a terrible way to define interesting posts (not mine, of course) made by polite users. My status is "who cares what he says", but I say anyway: I am really disappointed. Also and I am talking to the fanboy, please, like they're stupid and don't understand there could something else they do not know. They're expressing a concern and or an opinion instead of a useless "I am waiting the next build! Oh, thanks devs! " C'mon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rathlord Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 Marco, play nice with others or don't play. Lemmy has already explained BOTH that carpentry AND that water are both being balanced, not just carpentry. Another rude post like that and you're going to be in hot water. We don't throw around the terms "stupid fanboy" here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Bower Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The more I think about this the more I like it, if you want rain barrels you'll be a PoS farmer anyways, and if you waste all your points on that garbage your guy has some serious negative traits or is missing core positive traits and is destined to be raided and killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syfy Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 The more I think about this the more I like it, if you want rain barrels you'll be a PoS farmer anyways, and if you waste all your points on that garbage your guy has some serious negative traits or is missing core positive traits and is destined to be raided and killed.first off...everyone chooses what they want their character to be. just because someone wants to have a farmer based character that does NOT make it a PoS character. second...it is not wasted points if that is what they chose to spend them on. in truth, every successful server group is going to NEED 1 or 2 farmers to keep them fed and keep the crops healthy third...as we still don't know exactly what kind of characters we will be able to build, beyond Lemmys examples, who is to say that a farmer will require all kinds of serious negative or missing positive traits? fourth...next time you want to post something like that, remember the Be Lovely Law Jatta Pake 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnigmaGrey Posted February 1, 2015 Share Posted February 1, 2015 In order to prevent Chris's comments from being absolutely buried yet again, this thread is now locked. Other threads along the same vein will also be locked, with a request to check out the detailed explanation here, on page 3. syfy and Jatta Pake 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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