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Metalworking and furnaces


pershgn

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So I have seen much talk about metalworking and stone furnaces and this idea that a furnace made from stone would be "minecrafty". I completely fail to understand this position, could someone please explain how stone furnaces that humans have utilized for at least a few thousand years for heating and reshaping or forge welding metals is inspired by minecraft?? A quick google search for medieval forge will give thousands of images and diagrams of real working stone furnaces and forges. A stone furnace burning coal, with a bellows for increasing air, and a big enough fuel supply and you can heat steel well enough to hammer it however you like. Its also a great way to fuse metal, say for pre-fabricating wall pieces, or using small scrap to create a larger item. It just takes lots of heat, time, and hammering. This is called fuse welding and was used for many centuries. Not the most modern technique, but perfectly realistic in a post-apocalypse given enough time, manpower, and resources.

 

Also, a little clarification, I've seen folks say you can't smelt metal with a furnace. You're absolutely correct, you smelt with a smelter. Smelting is the process of refining an ore (what you dig out of the ground) into a base metal. Unless at some point TIS said they will be adding mining and i missed it, you will not be smelting ANYTHING. 

 

No, you cant completely metal steel and form steel bricks from it in a furnace, that takes modern foundry equipment, which you wont have unless you have a power plant. Why would you need to when you have a furnace/forge to work or shape the metal you scavenge however you like. 

 

Not only would a stone furnace or forge work, but I have seen DIY forges that worked great built from salvaged stainless steel sinks, furnace duct, and some random parts from the hardware store (published in popular mechanics actually). This would make a much less resource intensive alternative to the more versatile stone option. It would be great for a bullet forging station, or for repairs, not so much for fabrication (wall pieces, new tools from scrap).

 

Now to be clear, building a forge, keeping a fire fueled, getting it stoked to a high enough temperature and keeping it there, and actually heating and hammering and heating and hammering and heating and hammering... It takes a LOT of time, but so do so many other things in zomboid. Furnaces and forges a great idea and a great fit for the game, its just unfortunate that a lot of peoples idea of what a furnace is comes from their experience of minecraft, not any idea of how they actually work or are used, or how that could be implemented to improve the game.

Edited by pershgn
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You're not part of a linage of craftsmen specializing in the construction and forging/smelting of primitive implements. Today, this kind of stuff is largely created by a small number of of people, and even then mainly for decorative use outside and farrier-ing today. Just because societies have done impressive things in the past doesn't mean that level of skill is imminently and intuitively learnable by an  individual.

 

Simplifying it to the point where it's "melt any metal down --> get new perfect item!" is the definition of "minecrafty."

 

Why do we even need forges, furnaces, and blacksmithing in a world absolutely packed with modern tools and materials going unsued? It's only utility is for improvisation or for a "life after society" scenario years down the line. Why do we even make planks from logs with a saw in a world of frame houses?

 

This is why people got their goat up over the inclusion of metal working, as presented.

Edited by EnigmaGrey
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I watched tons of videos on it to be sure it work in real life...

 

From real blacksmith, to "blacksmith hobby" to redneck smelting metal to do their own bullets.

 

Yeah, it's 100% possible, but again, I had to do research, and in the mind of the players who won't do research, smelting metal feel like it's too medieval/minecrafty...

When we announced it, or on twitter, we had a lot of players saying that "it's not realistic etc...." because in the mind of the player, it's not, and I don't want the player to make research to understand that it's 100% possible and ton of player do it every day :D

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Melting tin, copper, aluminium, making bronze (tin+copper) - I'm ok with that because it's relatively easy, but I doubt we will go so deep into details of metallurgy (which is fine).

 

Building a stone furnace - there is no logical explanation why would anybody want to drag tonnes of stones (and look for them!) and plaster them together. And I'm completely omitting the fact that not every kind of stone will work for that. Some kinds of stones explode and crack when heated. And the heat required to melt steel is very high and rather hard to achieve in a backyard. BUT if we are going that alley (please, no), why not build a furnace out of bricks? Houses are made of bricks, there are pallets full of bricks on construction sites. Bricks are uniform in shape and heat resistant. Making items out of scrap (knives, nails, arrowheads) is fine, but iron/steel ingots? There is no explanation why would anyone want to melt steel into ingot (the amount of energy needed to do just that!) and then make an item out of it (melting the ingot again?).

 

And bellows? Please...  There are leaf blowers for that, there are hair dryers, there are industrial fans with metal blades... There will be cars and vehicles and each of them has a fan next to radiator... Connect any of that via metal pipe to the furnace and that's it, you've got your forced airflow going. There are many possibilities that fit the world of PZ better than medieval furnace and bellows.

 

Making charcoal is wrong as well. Nothing has changed since the first reveal of metalworking. What it's shown is burning wood in a barrel. You'd get ash and wooden remains that didn't burn entirely. Barrel should be closed and put on a campfire to get charcoal. It's really just a change in art that is needed.

 

 

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All of what Geras said.

 

If we're talking about low melting point metals, we don't even need a smelter and a crucible. A steel can and a fire are enough.

 

Smelting has very little utility. That's why most of it is just decorative sand casting of jewelry when done in "at home" conditions. At least with black smithing we can use readily available metals, though I think if you looked at how long it takes to, say, add a handle to a block of steel, you'd see why just getting a new axe head from your local Homely hardware is preferrable . . . blacksmithing is more of a last resort to even simply grinding an edge on something.

 

Welding, smelting, blacksmithing should have just been rolled into a generic "metal working" skill, as discussed over the past few months and even in  feedback from the first metalworking Mondoid . . .

Edited by EnigmaGrey
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3 minutes ago, Geras said:

And bellows? Please...  There are leaf blowers for that, there are hair dryers, there are industrial fans with metal blades... There will be cars and vehicles and each of them has a fan next to radiator... Connect any of that via metal pipe to the furnace and that's it, you've got your forced airflow going. There are many possibilities that fit the world of PZ better than medieval furnace and bellows

Gotta agree on the many possibilities available to conveniently replace bellows at first. But in the long term... leaf blowers need fuel --> shortage incoming ; hair dryers, fans of all sorts need electricity --> shortage incoming as well... Let's not forget about the sound and how it would attract zeds. Now, bellows only need calories to work and are somewhat more silent, I'd choose them without hesitation. But still, your options are valid and could be implemented as a makeshift option to quickly increase the heat, at the cost of discretion.

 

Now, I'm not convinced by smelting. I'm trying to figure out what, in the PZ context, would need casts and molten metal. Bullets? Shell casings maybe? Nails? Apart from that, bladed weapons are a real blacksmith's job only requiring heat, a hammer, an anvil and a quenching tank. Blunt weapons (I'm thinking of a mace) just need big pieces of adequately shaped metal, and a handle, and I can't see where smelting would fit.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying smelting is an impossible and stupid idea. I just can't convince myself of a way it would properly fit into a survival game such as PZ. Metalworking has to be in. Having a source of heat, some equipment and knowledge, you can try to become a blacksmith and I think that's all PZ really needs.

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4 minutes ago, Teesee said:

Gotta agree on the many possibilities available to conveniently replace bellows at first. But in the long term... leaf blowers need fuel --> shortage incoming ; hair dryers, fans of all sorts need electricity --> shortage incoming as well... Let's not forget about the sound and how it would attract zeds. Now, bellows only need calories to work and are somewhat more silent, I'd choose them without hesitation. But still, your options are valid and could be implemented as a makeshift option to quickly increase the heat, at the cost of discretion.

 

You can always connect a bicycle to a fan and pedal away :) Our legs are stronger than arms. Easier than make bellows IMO.

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Just now, Geras said:

 

You can always connect a bicycle to a fan and pedal away :) Our legs are stronger than arms. Easier than make bellows IMO.

Darn, now we need bicycles. And if you try to ride them inside a house, I want a voice coming from nowhere telling you "This isn't the time to use that!".

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7 hours ago, pershgn said:

So I have seen much talk about metalworking and stone furnaces and this idea that a furnace made from stone would be "minecrafty". I completely fail to understand this position, could someone please explain how stone furnaces that humans have utilized for at least a few thousand years for heating and reshaping or forge welding metals is inspired by minecraft??

Not the stone furnace itself is "minecraft" but the whole metalworking may be too minecraft.

You actually do not need a stone furnace, some DIY furnaces are made of an old plant pot and a bucket with cinder. The bad part is that you will need a bunch of instruments and borax or chalk or something, also some manual airpump.. And it makes a lot of noise. So, even being extremely useful (not often, but from time to time) smithing is a BIG bag of problems, otherwise its minecraft.

 

BTW welding iron with propane blowtorch - this IS already kinda minecraft.

 

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It's not so much just the act of smelting metal into other items we had concens about, but the recipes themselves that were in the system. For example making spoons, baking trays and the like. The idea being someone would be sat smelting 100s of spoons to level up their metalworking would lead to some odd rather non Walking Dead style moments.

 

Smelting will go back in in some form I'm sure, but only once it's behind the correct amount of skill / recipe locking and progression, that all the recipes are those that will be the sort of metal objects that would have a purpose to be built in a zombie apocalypse, and to make sure that the system felt realistic enough for PZ and not like a 'craft-em-up' kind of game like Minecraft where every item is craftable since its impossible to scavenge a lot of the items in the world. Regardless of whether the stuff is possible and realistic, which RJ says it is since he's put a lot of research into it, it's the 'if there was a scene on the Walking Dead where a character was.... would it seem weird' factor that guides us a lot. Fact is though a lot of the metal objects you would expect to be able to smelt easily in a post apocalypse would also be items you'd expect to find plenty of in most houses.

 

As EG says though making your own bullets, or say bolts should we add in crossbows in future, or nails, or other consumables are a dead cert. Just at least for the short term we feel there's extra work required on the smelting to make it fit within our game, we've been going around in circles with it and dragging poor RJ hither and dither and figured the best thing for now would be to get the welding aspects out there, maybe have a break to let us think on stuff and have another bash in a while.

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I'm glad to hear that small items like bullets, arrow or bolt tips, and nails are a for sure thing, at this point nails, bullets, and screwdrivers/shivs are really what I would like to be able to produce at some point. There comes a point after surviving for a while (or playing mp with no loot respawn) that certain consumables become quite hard to scavenge, now this may change as the map expands and be a moot point, but i still see it being something i would love having a person in my group with the ability to cast some of these small consumables, or maybe a one who shant be mentioned with the ability to. 

 

 And i totally agree that I would never want to haul the amounts of stone or brick needed, and go through the time and effort of building a furnace in a zombie apocalypse, but this is specifically why i mention DIY salvaged options that totally fit the scene of post apocalypse (and even use a shop vac for forced air geras ;-), i really only said bellows because i was looking at the bellows hanging next to my fireplace while typing). A lot of those problems mentioned, such as using lots of resources, making tons of noise, taking a lot of time, are the things that can be used to limit its capability and prevent it being overly gamey. And you would definitely be limited in what you could make, small consumables and I really feel like there are a number of items you could stand to be able to do a more effective repair on with a furnace. It just has to be resource and time intensive enough, and require such high skill, that its not something you are going to be doing unless you have absolutely no other choice. 

 

http://www.popularmechanics.co.za/home-how-to/diy-news-features/the-backyard-blacksmith/ - personally i feel that would fit right in with the generator jerry-rigged to the mini-fridges by the bbq grill in my base.

 

The welding being minecrafty was mentioned, this one bothers me actually. Obviously a propane torch is nowhere near hot enough to weld metals like iron or steel, it is great for soldering together copper and melting lead though. Also, nowhere near hot enough to create a flash that would require a welding mask, which you would be blind while wearing the mask for welding (that could make some great mp moments).

 

I'm ok with that part though, game already has propane, finding and hauling around oxyacetylene tanks would be a pain, the mask blinding you would be irritating and possibly hard to implement, lots of issues.

But how it works now I heat pieces of metal and they magically stick together with no material holding them... I need nails for carpentry, I need batteries for my flashlights, a dozen supplies for treating my wounds, I even have to turn off my stove so I don't burn my house down.. But i don't need any kind of welding rod or solder to weld metal walls together? It really does not fit with the other systems in the game and with the immersive and realistic environment you seem to be striving for.

Right now it really feels like there is no greater barriers to putting up metal walls over wooden ones, despite the advantages to them. Another consumable won't necessarily balance its requirements with those of wooden walls, but it will cut down some of the silliness of it. A propane torch, a mask, and a pile of random metal, heat it, and boom, I gots wall. 

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7 minutes ago, pershgn said:

-snip-

 

Haha, very nice setup there with steel kitchen sinks and a vacuum cleaner. Yeah, vacuums are in (almost) every household I guess.

 

Welding can be made with electricity as well (duh). You'd need a welding machine and welding rods.

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Ya, arc welding would be perfectly feasible, just in zombieville personally id prefer gas welding, no need to have a generator running attracting that many more seeing as your walls are generally on the outside of the base. 

 

While having an electric option could be very nice, they already have a gas option of sorts, just really need some rods or even solder.

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Aaaaand another (first here) experiment to prove.. I do not know what, maybe that I have some time to spend.

I've made a small furnace and tried to smith something - for the first time. Well, now I know, that it needs two for a tango.. Or some automatic airpump and a cyborg's metal limb to andle two details . Also smithing is loud, all Z's will be yours if you start cosplaying a dwarf in the centre of Muldraugh.

It was just an experiment, but having only knowledge and no experience it is possible to do something. At least you can make something like a tea spoon from a big nail, don't ask me what for.

 

1) The furnace - some ceramic vessel with a hole, a big can, an iron tube(goes from ceramic pot's bottom) and some cinder, also a couple of nails.

DSC_1403.JPG

 

2) The pump - from an air matress or something. Space between the ceramic pot and the can is filled with cinder.

DSC_1404.JPG

 

 

3) Had no coal, had to burn wood, thats why the pot is almost empty. The proper way to do it: tage big flower pot, fill it with coal, use a bucket instdead of a can.

DSC_1411.JPG.

 

 

4) The nail is orange-hot, pretty enough to shape it as you wish. If I had the full pot of coal I could warm the half of that nail to red. Bigger pot is needed for something like a knife.

DSC_1416.JPG 

 

 

5) Used a piece of iron as an anvil. The nail cools down pretty fast, but when it is orange or bright red it is soft and can be shaped even with a not-that-big hammer.

DSC_1424.JPG

 

 

6) Made a kinda handle by smashing and twisting the end of the nail. Thats the last pic, the "working" part of the spoon is pretty ugly, will try to make a simple  can-opener out of it later. The flat details to the bottom-left: tried to weld them by simply heating and hammering - just "no", needs flux, needs higher temperature (maybe). 

DSC_1439.JPG

 

So, conclusions:

Using a flower-pot technology is fine to make a simple furnace that gives enough heat to smith iron details..

You'll probably need another guy to pump air and hold something, also you'll need good pliers to handle the iron part.

If you want to make something simple you need only pliers and a hammer, otherwise - tools tools tools and a proper anvil.

**ck, now I want a big furnace and an anvil..

 

TLDR: take a flower pot, and a bucket of cinder, also a metal pipe and you are almost a blacksmith!

Edited by GOGOblin
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@GOGOblin What portion of that did you knew without resorting to looking it up online?  From where do you get your knowledge but lack of practice?  If it comes from a non web search, can it be tied to an occupation?

 

I still remember my dad in the 90s learning stuff about a single topic in his hobby the good old fashion way : reading books.  There where also a few video show such as "this old house" and others.

 

I strongly beleive that general know-how in the 90s should not be what it is today, especially with the advent of world wide web.  That reminds me of a topic about librairies from Crazy ManMan. Nowaday, a few people can seem like experts with some research and a few tests (shows they're smart and they can learn).  But back in the days, those research took far more time, leaving what was left for very few tests (surviving aside).

 

I truly admire your empiric fashion about things, I'm like that too.  But remember it's a game set in the early 90s.

 

Yes we can argue about physics and game rules with our today knowledge.  But what a character can or cannot do should be dictated by it's proper time period and other circumstances (occupation, hobbies, etc).

 

That being said

Your idea is not bad at all, very good actually.  Could make a great makeshift forge for those that have proper background or can read appropriate recipe.  I support it as long as it's not widespread knowledge.

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Things I wouldn't know without the Internet: You can use a basic campfire as "furance" with just a pipe and your own breath.

 

How that's useful compared to just using a file/rasp though . . .

Edited by EnigmaGrey
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1 hour ago, MyTJ said:

I strongly beleive that general know-how in the 90s should not be what it is today, especially with the advent of world wide web.  That reminds me of a topic about librairies from Crazy ManMan. Nowaday, a few people can seem like experts with some research and a few tests (shows they're smart and they can learn).  But back in the days, those research took far more time, leaving what was left for very few tests (surviving aside).


Aside from books or actually being professionally taught there was also Educational Television back in those days that i remember watching as a kid. It defiatly would not make you an expert but you could learn a fair amount especially in home improvement shows like Bob Vila or science and technology shows like Nova.  Heck even Mr Rogers would visit factories and stuff and show you how things were made. Oh also Bill Nye too for general science.

 

Edited by Hydromancerx
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Sure Metalworking seems a bit to much for some because  when most of the people who think about it in Zomboid think about what they could do with it as if it were a Minecraft like game. But what zomboid try to achieve here is more like a DIY approche of it and i think personally that it's totally in the Zomboid mood. At least, how it was explained by RJ and the Devs. In fact, i would go even further by thinking that we lack this DIY a lot in Zomboid.

 

For now we have real finished product like table or chair, doors or wall, but i would really love to see more little thing that anybody could just TRY in a zombie apocalypse to ease their life, even (and especially) if it's not perfect product. A hose stuck in a water collecting barrel with some hole in it with a needle and an obstructed end to make a makeshift irrigation system. a bell on a pike tent with twine to make an alarm system around the home base, or even a makeshift slingshot with balloons filled with grease to make Zeds stumble on their belly for all i care. Those are the thing that i feel really miss in zomboid. We're always thinking about "perfect" item like knives or fire axe when i think it should be more plausible to think about makeshift knives and makeshift axe blade stuck in a makeshift wooden shaft. The former is what's too "minecrafty" but the latter is more zombie apocalypse for me. And i think it should be the same for everything crafted with metalworking and by extension the furnace too. Metalworking should definitely be something in zomboid, but real "modern" item found by looting should generally have more performance. And why using blowtorch to barricade home with metal plate  when it could be a metal drill (even a makeshift manual one) and rivet? There should be more tools and makeshift tool to replace them and i think the spirit of the zombie apocalypse would be kept safe... 

 

So my point is, if you think about crafting makeshift item, you can't be wrong guys. Just keep it real-ish and that's it.

Edited by Bidule
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10 minutes ago, Bidule said:

Sure Metalworking seems a bit to much for some because  when most of the people who think about it in Zomboid think about what they could do with it as if it were a Minecraft like game. But what zomboid try to achieve here is more like a DIY approche of it and i think personally that it's totally in the Zomboid mood. At least, how it was explained by RJ and the Devs. In fact, i would go even further by thinking that we lack this DIY a lot in Zomboid.

 

For now we have real finished product like table or chair, doors or wall, but i would really love to see more little thing that anybody could just TRY in a zombie apocalypse to ease their life, even (and especially) if it's not perfect product. A hose stuck in a water collecting barrel with some hole in it with a needle and an obstructed end to make a makeshift irrigation system. a bell on a pike tent with twine to make an alarm system around the home base, or even a makeshift slingshot with balloons filled with grease to make Zeds stumble on their belly for all i care. Those are the thing that i feel really miss in zomboid. We're always thinking about "perfect" item like knives or fire axe when i think it should be more plausible to think about makeshift knives and makeshift axe blade stuck in a makeshift wooden shaft. The former is what's too "minecrafty" but the latter is more zombie apocalypse for me. And i think it should be the same for everything crafted with metalworking and by extension the furnace too. Metalworking should definitely be something in zomboid, but real "modern" item found by looting should generally have more performance. And why using blowtorch to barricade home with metal plate  when it could be a metal drill (even a makeshift manual one) and rivet? There should be more tools and makeshift tool to replace them and i think the spirit of the zombie apocalypse would be kept safe... 

 

So my point is, if you think about crafting makeshift item, you can't be wrong guys. Just keep it real-ish and that's it.

Thank you. :D

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In fact, now that i'm really thinking about it, shouldn't Metalworking be more like Tinkering? First it wouldn't have this Minecrafty preconception and second it would more emphasis what's truly in a zombie apocalypse as well as not limiting that much what you could do with it. Sure, you could probably just take a piece of metal and hammer an edge to make a makeshift axe, but it wouldn't be "blacksmithing" really in a minecraft way. It would be a recycling feel and the name of the skill wouldn't lost new player about it. In addition, it could give new construction and item like those i said earlier. For exemple, people asked if weapons could be crafted with blacksmithing, like swords and stuff but i think that wouldn't be zomboid like. Now, splitting a bat to put a broken and somewhat repaired axe blade in it... or even taking a tennis ball and putting nails in it to fire with a slingshot... It would be possible to bring totally new weapons AND keep a zomboid feel about it ! Like i said, finding a gun and bullet would be more powerful, but when you need the silence and when you already used all the ammo in the city... In addition, imagine a zombie apocalypse 6 months later... Would you still use modern item? Would there be any left? I think not so much (unless you travel) and those kind of makeshift would probably be more and more common... So i ask the devs for this one, what do you FEEL about that?

Edited by Bidule
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11 hours ago, Hydromancerx said:


Aside from books or actually being professionally taught there was also Educational Television back in those days that i remember watching as a kid. It defiatly would not make you an expert but you could learn a fair amount especially in home improvement shows like Bob Vila or science and technology shows like Nova.  Heck even Mr Rogers would visit factories and stuff and show you how things were made. Oh also Bill Nye too for general science.

 

 

There were indeed a few of them I remember watching. There was This old house I remember from that time as my parents where doing intensive renovation of a century old house then.

 

I also remember reading a science oriented kid's magazine monthly.  But there was nothing so potentialy dangerous as making a makeshift furnace involved.

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Back on the topic at hand, things that would feel survivor and fairly easy to make : Maces, crude bulgeon weapon or even heavy bars (kind of like crowbar but not as worked).

 

Maybe add the possibility to salvage leather from shoes/purse/wallet to improve the grip on them (let's say accuracy improvement).

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13 hours ago, MyTJ said:

What portion of that did you knew without resorting to looking it up online?

I do not remember, I haven't read anthing about furnaces right before I stated to make it. I've read something or have seen pictures somewhere in the wwweb I guess. I said that I had no experience, but I already had knowledge about those pot-based furnaces.

 

13 hours ago, MyTJ said:

I still remember my dad in the 90s learning stuff about a single topic in his hobby the good old fashion way : reading books.

Yep, there was no open  web in 93, right? (although there were online BBS-servers to connect via a modem). So only books and social skills. Thats why I like my "skill sharing aura" idea, there was no "ok google" option those times.

 

12 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

You can use a basic campfire as "furance" with just a pipe and your own breath

Yes, but Its really hard to make something even if you have a nice small furnace and a hammer and pliers. I have no idea how much effort it needs to forge something like a full-sized kitchen knife.  I think  euipment for blacksmithing should be implemented like tiers: hobby-tier(pot, makes nails and some little shit like doorknobs and tent pegs), advanced hobby-tier( bigger pot, makes knives, simple tools like trowels) and pro-tier with a huge furnace and ability of making good knives, machinery details, fortifications and others. There is an abyss (astonishing one ofc) between making a shitty fork out of a nail and something like a hatchet blade. So before building a fullsized stone furnace it would be wiser to test one's blacksmithing skills with a smaller pot-based furnace.

 

2 hours ago, Bidule said:

It would be possible to bring totally new weapons AND keep a zomboid feel about it !

Yep, and besides feelings - all this forgery needs a shitton of equipment and knowledge and skill too. I think carpentry is a way more simple and obvious. 

Edited by GOGOblin
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