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Carpentry level requirements should be reworked or taken out completely.


Eve

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So, you can make a drawer from the get go, but a simple square wooden pole to stick in the ground is locked behind lvl5? Functioning doors are lvl4 but a box with a trash sack in it, is 5 or 6 again? 

 

I think some would agree that this goes in the opposite direction of Indie Stone's realistic approach with PZ.  I know that there needs to be some sort of progression, but the current level requirements aren't it in my opinion.  But what is the realistic thing to do here? Well, take me for example. A stereotypical girl, that hammered maybe 2-3 nails in her life and thats it. But give me some boards, nails and hinges, and I'll hammer you a door. A really shitty door, but still a door. 

 

And here's the thing: This is already in the game. Indie Stone already put the perfect system in PZ, meaning the lower your skill, the shittier your crafts are.  Its even represented visually! So why do we need two systems in place here? To prevent players from settling down too early? Since 90% of the players eventually barricade a place for themselves anyway, that reason would seem moot to me.  Its not a run for unlocking levels, its a run for tools. Once a player has the tools he needs, he'll settle down most of the time.  Tbh, the leveling system seems to be its own reason.  So I'm saying we don't need two colliding systems when it comes to carpentry.

 

tl;dr - My suggestion is to rework or remove carpentry level requirements altogether, and maybe squeeze in one or two more levels of quality instead. 

 

 

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maybe a bit of both actually. some of the more common sense things, like you said with the pole, for example, yeah. but something like stairs? step on it and your done. it will collapse under you.

 

but maybe take your suggestion a step further? higher skill crates, for example.....

 

they look better with skill AND benefit from a slight capacity increase, due to straighter edges, etc.

 

its a good idea, what you suggest. but not everything needs to be open from the get go.

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12 hours ago, Eve said:

snip

 Well, take me for example. A stereotypical girl, that hammered maybe 2-3 nails in her life and thats it.

snip

Anyone regardless of gender...... who had no experience with carpentry would struggle.

 

I think the skill restrictions are there to make the game harder; game play over realism. It's already easy enough to get water from faucets. They want to give you something to work towards when the times comes that you NEED water.

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I think that it's fine as it is, I think if it goes the way your making it, It would ruin the progression of the game. IMO

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On 01.07.2016 at 9:30 PM, Eve said:

A really shitty door, but still a door. 

100% agree with you, skill restrictions are bullshit. The higher the characters' skill is the lower amount of a)nails b)time it takes to make something - thats how it could be nice. Added to higher furniture hp and better looks. It could be also nice to add a chance to f*ck up  crushing planks and loosing nails.. 

 

Carpentry is not such a complicated thing to conceal recipes, its mostly all about skill, not knowledge.

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Meeeeh.

 

I'm used to carpentry IRL (my dad is a carpenter) but even I would struggle doing a functionnal door, really, just try it at home if you want, you'll see that it's not just "some planks and nails" you have to think it, measure it correctly, do the hole for the door hinge, etc, etc.

 

But, I agree some of the skill restriction can be weird (didn't remember this drawer thing, gonna take a look) but to me, they are much needed and quite realistic (i recently did lot of work at my home, building stuff and i made lot of mistakes, still i know carpentry way better than the average joe...)

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13 minutes ago, RobertJohnson said:

Meeeeh.

 

I'm used to carpentry IRL (my dad is a carpenter) but even I would struggle doing a functionnal door, really, just try it at home if you want, you'll see that it's not just "some planks and nails" you have to think it, measure it correctly, do the hole for the door hinge, etc, etc.

 

But, I agree some of the skill restriction can be weird (didn't remember this drawer thing, gonna take a look) but to me, they are much needed and quite realistic (i recently did lot of work at my home, building stuff and i made lot of mistakes, still i know carpentry way better than the average joe...)

Might be neat to start characters with a semi-random assortment of known recipes (based on their profession) that they can try (ineffectually, at risk, with poor quality results) prior to the required level. e.g. a "chef" probably knows how to make bread, even if he isn't at a level to make a great loaf.

 

Not a fan of removing tieredrecipes in the game, but it'd be nice to have a better definition of our character from the beginning.

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5 hours ago, RobertJohnson said:

but even I would struggle doing a functionnal door

The door (a good looking robust door) may be a challenge, ok. But look at PZ: f*cking pole with a lamp requires more skill, than a table with a box (drawer?). The damn crate requires skill, also a table and a chair do.. Thats not really realistic. Don't forget that characters are grown ups born in 60s-70s, not modern kids.

 

5 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

they can try

Yes. Destroy some planks, bend some nails, spend time, but TRY to build the damn crate. Thats how skills are obtained.

Edited by GOGOblin
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Maybe we could have recipes broken into categories of sorts. For instance structural vs non structural? Higher functionality vs lower functionality?

 

Could the average Joe attach a flashlight to a pole and get it to stand up right? Probably. Its not structural and doesn't need to support much weight. Could they build a box to put some stuff in? Probably. Could the average Joe build a load bearing wall that supports a roof? Probably not. Could they build stairs and/or properly supported flooring? Probably not.

 

Furniture stuff is a toss-up to me. Could the average Joe build a box to sit on? Probably (maybe you don't want to though). Could they build a crude table to place some stuff on? Probably. Could they build an ergonomic comfortable chair that is actually restful? Probably not. (BTW can we build rocking chairs at a higher level? Would be sweet to sit on my porch in my rocker and watch the world end!)

 

Could the average Joe build a rudimentary privacy door that closes outside of a frame? Probably. Could they build a door that is properly fitted into a frame that provides privacy, security, and environmental protection? Probably not.

 

I am all for a system that allows you to try to build anything, that will most likely lead to you wasting a lot of resources, but also maybe learning something in the process. Learning is this manner would need to be trial and error. However, there are some things that should only be attempted with enough skill. As long as there are consequences for attempting a fool's errand, then I'm personally cool with it.

Edited by CaptKaspar
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8 hours ago, RobertJohnson said:

engineer how to make bombs

I do not get it. Veteran should know how to make bombs - ok, but why engineer?

BTW you can use powder from matches' tips to make bombs.

3 hours ago, RobertJohnson said:

I'm gonna look into this skills requirement problem

Please take into consideration that those requirements force players to grind barricade-unbaricade to obtain damn carpentry=4. Thats not the way to enjoy games. Good games. Think of sandbox games: Minecraft, DontStarv, Terraria, there are now skill requirements there, because "grinding XP" for hours and days is not the reason why people play (and buy) indy games.

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A veteran might know how to place explosives, but why would he know how to make them? Is everyone a explosives tech now?

 

I see you've read the anarchist's handbook or possibly seen Mythbusters. Congratulations on learning a recipe involving match tips.

 

People seem to enjoy grinding, even when it's intentionally punitive and met to make them stop.  Sure, occassionally we get a complaint about it and I don't actually  like grinding, but perhaps this is one of those "people don't actually know what they like" things (e.g. "I don't want to be a carpenter, but I'll happy grind through 5 levels building floors!"). Personally, I hate skill systems that are just buff/debuffs of commonly done activities. They're what's boring. Maybe it'd be nice to be -just- a little bit different from/harder than MineCraft. (Why Don't Starve? It just tiers crafting by per-requsiit crafted object, doesn't it?)

 

11 hours ago, RobertJohnson said:

It's already there, a chef know how to make pie/bread etc...

An electrician know how to operate generators, engineer how to make bombs....

It's kind of boring right now, though. Every profession knows the same thing and nothing outside of their  profession. It'd be kind of ncie to make them more defined characters, a kind of enhanced Neo Scavenger system.

 

But we'd really need quite a few more recipes in-game for that to work, I suppose.

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9 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

 

A veteran might know how to place explosives, but why would he know how to make them? Is everyone a explosives tech now?

 

Dude, for now recipes of bombs are published in magazines..  And yes, soldiers are not only trained, but also taught (surprise) and officers recieve tons of knowledge about weapons.

9 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

I see you've read the anarchist's handbook or possibly seen Mythbusters.

 I made matches bombs (add Potassium permanganate, add Magnesium for sparkles) when I was about 12 y.o. : ) 

 

9 hours ago, EnigmaGrey said:

People seem to enjoy grinding

Hm, kidding? People like recieving XP with minimum risk - thats true. But making a hundred of drawes to learn how to make stairs is bullshit.  The same is barricading-unbarricadeing meditative technics, including "Devs - jerks" matra.  The whole XP system itself is bullshit and atavism, sadly PZ still uses it for no reason. 

Edited by GOGOblin
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8 minutes ago, GOGOblin said:

Dude, for now recipes of bombs are published in magazines..  And yes, soldiers are not only trained, but also taught (surprise) and officers recieve tons of knowledge about weapons.

 I made matches bombs (add Potassium permanganate, add Magnesium for sparkles) when I was about 12 y.o. : ) 

 

Hm, kidding? People like recieving XP with minimum risk - thats true. But making a hundred of drawes to learn how to make stairs is bullshit.  The same is barricading-unbarricadeing meditative technics, including "Devs - jerks" matra.  The whole XP system itself is bullshit and atavism, sadly PZ still uses it for no reason. 

Fair enough -- perhaps those magazines dealing with explosives should have their name changed to reflect reality.

 

And no, all soldiers aren't weapon engineers or whatever profession improvised explosives might fall under. Sorry to ruin any fantasies regarding the military.

 

You'll just have to get over the use of an XP/level system as it's unlikely at this point they're going to be removed. What's a definite is that the leveling / XP system will be tweaked or improved on in the future.

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44 minutes ago, EnigmaGrey said:

And no, all soldiers aren't weapon engineers

Much better than plain engineers. The ingame logic is not that perfect already, assuming all engineers to be pyromaniacs with enough knowledge to make explosives is just another brick (of bullshit) in the wall.

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10 minutes ago, GOGOblin said:

Much better than plain engineers. The ingame logic is not that perfect already, assuming all engineers to be pyromaniacs with enough knowledge to make explosives is just another brick (of bullshit) in the wall.

Game going to game.

Sorry. It just seems pointless discussing these things with you when your default response is just to call things bullshit. It'd be much easier to go "Yeah, these probably shouldn't be locked away into an engineer profession and I get your point, but at the same time, I'd think people in applied sciences might be more willing to try it than those that aren't. Professions in PZ aren't, obviously, realistic; they're a gameplay element. If it being a gameplay element and not totally realistic is such a bother, you're going to be in for a bad time."

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9 minutes ago, GOGOblin said:

Wizards, Paladins, I see..   PZ tries to be realistic, those "classes" look strange here. 

This is why even when you make some valid or interesting points, discussion ultimately proves futile. You're not actually interested in discussion of your points or the reasoning behind the current game's choices; you just want to point out why it's bullshit and have others agree.

 

Gets tiring, man.

 

While PZ's forename might be "realistic," it's surname remains "game." TIS will try to do what's fun or fitting for a game. In this case it's a levelling system with some recipes that are locked behind specific professions (or require specific professions to learn). No, I'm not sayin git's perfect or that everything in the current game makes sense, nor that things don't need to be changed, but come on. There's no need of such hyerbole, calling things bullshit .etc

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I think some stuffs about construction have been mentionned a few mondoids ago *looks for said mondoid*  this :


 

Spoiler

 

TWO-STEP BUILDING

Right now RJ is polishing metalwork, and adding more depth and mod-abilty to how you build things in Project Zomboid.  The primary change in this is the ability to have multi-stage objects.

The best way to describe this is to use a simple example: the wall. Before, building a wall was simple. You’d right click select it, the build – but you couldn’t ever upgrade it. As of the next build, however, that time will be over. Once you hit the correct level you’ll be able to improve on it, which should see the end of people building countless wooden floor tiles to get to level 6/7 before you decide to start building walls.

Here’s a WIP image, with WIP UI stuff and… did we mention this was WIP?

nubuildinguse

To build a wall, you’ll first need to build a frame – and then onto this you’ll then be able to right click it and build the wall using it. So yes, construction will take a little more time – but also there’ll be more precious XP points on offer.

This is also where we introduce cross-skill abilities. Using the new metalwork skills you’ll be able to have similar metal frames that can be used with wood to create more reinforced walls. Meanwhile, another more zed-resistant wall will be a wooden-frame with light metal plates attached – which will have more HP then a standard wooden wall, but will make a lot more noise when zombies are slamming against it.

There’s plenty more to come with all this that we’ll discuss at a later date – but another example would be putting two poles in the ground and choosing what sort of construction material to use to link them. Wooden fencing, metal wire… all that cool stuff.

 


They took the simple wall as an exemple, but I think the system is supposed to cover everything you can build. Ain't that kind of what you were asking for ? (the part I put in bold)

Edited by deprav
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1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said:

TIS will try to do what's fun or fitting for a game.

Well, lets travel to past..  Wroooom wrooom, out time machine starts..

 

First RPG were tabletop games, right? Thus classes, skills, 1d6, 2d6+1, etc. The ways to SIMPLIFY the model(because no PC to compute everything), becides there was a lot of magic and mystic stuff, thus druid class is not equal to paladin clas and such things.

 

Second: guys, who've mastered C++ spawned some primitive RPG. Just coding tabletop mechanics into vidia. 

 

Third: Its kinda classic now: skills, classes..

 

In PZ there are no dwarfs or druids, all player are humans. There is not that much difference between a policeman and a carpenter when you fight zombies. The difference ofc exists, but not that huge to implement separate types of players. The extremly sterssful environment kinda equals characters. 

 

1 hour ago, EnigmaGrey said:

Gets tiring, man.

Sorry : )

 

 

Edited by GOGOblin
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Funny how the Mondoid regarding this sort of thing needed to be linked and then quoted 18 posts later before it was taken notice of, resolving the issues of the topic :P lol

Mondoids = Everything :D haha

Best source of info ever, if you read them :)

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33 minutes ago, Kuren said:

Funny how the Mondoid regarding this sort of thing needed to be linked and then quoted 18 posts later before it was taken notice of, resolving the issues of the topic :P lol

Carpentry is not all about building and mondoid is not even IWBUMS release, so you are right, but not completely : )

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