Suicide in the Game!

[Major_Malice]

Hey again,

 

I know PZ is a dark game and I don't know how much "darker" the devs would want to get but...

 

A suicide option with a pistol, shotgun, knife, sleeping pills, or sheet rope (via second floor window) would be an interesting addition for those who are "zombified," or create another danger for the player to have to over come when managing their character or group.

 

It would make sense considering that drinking bleach/burning is horrific way to go and that folks would probably want something less painful

 

I figure that if the character's sadness level gets way too low there could be a chance the character will do it to him/her self without the player initiating it and that this could happen with NPC members of a group too.

 

It is a very dark option to expand upon, but this is a dark game. I would figure that if a player gets their fort gets surrounded by a massive horde and they are on their last legs supply wise and ammo wise they may want a more expedient option than bleach, burning, starving, or jumping off something.

 

If the option is too dark... you could just have the screen fade to black followed by the sound effect associated with the method (e.g Pistol= *BANG*) and then the infamous "you survived for X months, days etc."

 

Just an idea, and I apologize.. it is dark one Lol.

 

 

 

[Rathlord]

You can actually already overdose on pills, and bleach is there, too.

 

This, however:

I figure that if the character's sadness level gets way too low there could be a chance the character will do it to him/her self without the player initiating it and that this could happen with NPC members of a group too.

 

I'm pretty sure has been confirmed no by the devs. If you die, it should be something that's in direct control- that's just good video game design. Suicide will be an option, not an enforced hardcap for sadness. After all, the vast majority of human beings in the face of absolute hardship don't commit suicide, it is in fact a vast minority that do, so this wouldn't make sense anyways.

[Major_Malice]

Ah, well... the option for firearms and sheet ropes still stands then. My main point was to just suggest having more options then bleach and stuff like that.

 

Thanks for the reply though!

[Burianu]

You can actually already overdose on pills, and bleach is there, too.

This, however:

I figure that if the character's sadness level gets way too low there could be a chance the character will do it to him/her self without the player initiating it and that this could happen with NPC members of a group too.

I'm pretty sure has been confirmed no by the devs. If you die, it should be something that's in direct control- that's just good video game design. Suicide will be an option, not an enforced hardcap for sadness. After all, the vast majority of human beings in the face of absolute hardship don't commit suicide, it is in fact a vast minority that do, so this wouldn't make sense anyways.

I still disagree with the whole "direct control" argument; you have the same control over your depression level as you do over your hunger level... you're in direct control. It would just be another long term threat that this game could benefit from. Or, how about this - a trait: severe/suicidal depression. "+4 (?) - If severely depressed for an extended period of time, there is a chance of automatic suicide."

[Major_Malice]

Hmm, or maybe you don't get the option of suicide with those weapons and stuff unless you are in the severely depressed state?

[Burianu]

Hmm, or maybe you don't get the option of suicide with those weapons and stuff unless you are in the severely depressed state?

Sure, have optional suicide in like that, and the trait as well. Also, the opposite - "-4 (?) Positive Attitiude - You suffer less from depression (and boost the happiness of those around you?).

The 'and those around you' clause is especially interesting - you'd want someone positive in the group, but what if he's a burden in other aspects? Decisions, decisions...

[unsaved_progress]

I like the idea that someone's depression can bring the whole group down. I'm guessing there will be lots of little details like this added to NPC interactions, it sounds like the devs are cooking up one hell of a pie. 

 

Also, yeah just drink Bleach™

[Daec]

i'm all against the "character auto suicide" thing. 

i agree that depression should have negative effects and all...but automatic suicide...no

 

i also like the idea of NPCs reacting to your depression, and effects on relations. but maybe (if you really want to die of depression) it would be a better idea, to make your character getting less appetite the more he gets depressed (the "i need something to eat"message taking longer to appear even though your character "should be hungry). if you eat anyways your character might feel sick...those could go to severe depression where the hunger doesn't appear anymore or really really late....you would starve slowly

 

or make him halucinate that bleach is soda 

[Burianu]

People say that they are against suicidal depression because "it takes control out of the player's hands", but you are in no less control of your depression than you are of your hunger... and my idea of a trait would give the player the choice to even have to worry about it. It's just a loss condition that the player can opt into or out of.

[Daec]

i guess what most people mean is, "the character autonomously going to the bathroom and drink a bottle of bleach" is to much "control taken out of the player's hand". Mental health should be something to worry about as soon as it's implemented, thats right. But the consequences shouldn't be, that you character does something automatically. The way i described would be more elegant and, by the way, pretty realistic. You can get so depressed that you have to be force fed in a hospital.

[Burianu]

Why get worked up over the circumstances of your loss?  You failed to use the mechanics provided in game to prevent a loss, one that which makes perfect sense realistically, and therefore you lose...  You shouldn't get worked up "omg my character killed himself and there was nothing I could" when there was absolutely plenty you could do, just like you shouldn't get worked up "my player starved to death and there was nothing I could do".

[Rathlord]

People say that they are against suicidal depression because "it takes control out of the player's hands", but you are in no less control of your depression than you are of your hunger... and my idea of a trait would give the player the choice to even have to worry about it. It's just a loss condition that the player can opt into or out of.

 

After all, the vast majority of human beings in the face of absolute hardship don't commit suicide, it is in fact a vast minority that do, so this wouldn't make sense anyways.

 

Because you do starve to death in real life. You don't just get sad and then commit suicide in real life. It's not only bad game design, it's also not remotely based on reality.

 

 

You shouldn't get worked up "omg my character killed himself and there was nothing I could" when there was absolutely plenty you could do, just like you shouldn't get worked up "my player starved to death and there was nothing I could do".

 

This is an absolutely not equivalent comparison. If you are hungry, you eat. If you don't have food, you failed to prepare correctly. But sometimes (in both life and in Project Zomboid) there's nothing you can do about depression- it's a natural part of life. So you have to deal with the side effects of depression, but that's absolutely not comparable to hunger and again people don't just off themselves because they're depressed. That's an absolute minority of the population. You really have no basis behind your arguments; that's not how life works.

[Major_Malice]

I dunno, I think a good compromise would be to have a suicide option become available once you hit the lowest sadness level. Then it leaves it up to the player to make the decision based upon their character, since this is an RPG. Like Rath said earlier "the vast majority of human beings in the face of absolute hardship don't commit suicide, it is in fact a vast minority that do" So you the player can decide  what sort of character you have... if they are the kind that would give up or keep going... or if the character gets super depressed because their fort is surrounded by zombies and he has run out of food and water you can decide how your character's story will end. Also if the option is only available when your character hits the lowest level of sadness it would prevent someone from accidentally offing themselves via a misclick. XD

 

Would be kinda crazy if it was something NPC's could do, tell a tragic story when you come across it but I don't think it would be easy to put into place.

[Major_Malice]

 

People say that they are against suicidal depression because "it takes control out of the player's hands", but you are in no less control of your depression than you are of your hunger... and my idea of a trait would give the player the choice to even have to worry about it. It's just a loss condition that the player can opt into or out of.

 

After all, the vast majority of human beings in the face of absolute hardship don't commit suicide, it is in fact a vast minority that do, so this wouldn't make sense anyways.

 

Because you do starve to death in real life. You don't just get sad and then commit suicide in real life. It's not only bad game design, it's also not remotely based on reality.

 

 

You shouldn't get worked up "omg my character killed himself and there was nothing I could" when there was absolutely plenty you could do, just like you shouldn't get worked up "my player starved to death and there was nothing I could do".

 

This is an absolutely not equivalent comparison. If you are hungry, you eat. If you don't have food, you failed to prepare correctly. But sometimes (in both life and in Project Zomboid) there's nothing you can do about depression- it's a natural part of life. So you have to deal with the side effects of depression, but that's absolutely not comparable to hunger and again people don't just off themselves because they're depressed. That's an absolute minority of the population. You really have no basis behind your arguments; that's not how life works.

 

I agree, it’s a small minority and is not comparable to affects like hunger and feeling tired. If you feel it necessary perhaps this thread should be deleted before it starts any sort of weird heated debates over suicide.>_>

 

I know this suggestion really only provides an additional option for a player to choose based on the character they are playing/ what happens in game. It does not contribute much to the game play other than giving the player the potential for a crazy story about a situation gone really bad. To be honest, this could probably just be a mod if anyone ever felt the need for such a option in the game. X_X

[Burianu]

So what if it's a minority - that's why it should be a trait.  +4 for "severe depression" that enables that loss condition.  And let me tell you - the thought of suicide in a zombie apocalypse would be much more common than the everyday life you describe.  Don't go arrogantly telling me that I "really have no basis for my argument" - all bolded and absolute sounding - it's rude, especially for a moderator.  

[Major_Malice]

Hmm, that would be interesting to make it a trait XD

[TheCenturion]

So what if it's a minority - that's why it should be a trait.  +4 for "severe depression" that enables that loss condition.  And let me tell you - the thought of suicide in a zombie apocalypse would be much more common than the everyday life you describe.  Don't go arrogantly telling me that I "really have no basis for my argument" - all bolded and absolute sounding - it's rude, especially for a moderator.  

 

He's reasoning to 'automatic' suicide, even in the apocalypse having your character randomly commit suicide makes very little sense. It's the equivalent of, if in real life, a sudden unworldly force took control of your body and marched you into the bathroom to take a sip of bleach. I don't see the logic there.

[Burianu]

 

So what if it's a minority - that's why it should be a trait.  +4 for "severe depression" that enables that loss condition.  And let me tell you - the thought of suicide in a zombie apocalypse would be much more common than the everyday life you describe.  Don't go arrogantly telling me that I "really have no basis for my argument" - all bolded and absolute sounding - it's rude, especially for a moderator.  

 

He's reasoning to 'automatic' suicide, even in the apocalypse having your character randomly commit suicide makes very little sense. It's the equivalent of, if in real life, a sudden unworldly force took control of your body and marched you into the bathroom to take a sip of bleach. I don't see the logic there.

 

 

But it's not random - it's your character succumbing to his severe depression.  It's whatever, I'm done debating...  Rathlord's aggressive argument really turned me off this whole topic.

[Rathlord]

Psychological choices should be left to the player as that immerses you in the game and makes you feel like you are the character. When the character makes choices without you (starving to death is a consequence, killing yourself is a choice; say what you want about my "aggressive argument" comparing the two is absolutely broken logic objectively) it breaks immersion and as I've said repeatedly, is bad game design.

 

If you want your character to commit suicide when depressed- just commit suicide when they're depressed. That's all it takes; just roleplay as being depressed and drink the bleach/take the pills/jump off the roof/whatever.

 

Can you tell me one thing that this trait would add to the gameplay? Because as I've illustrated above, whether it's a trait or not it limits the player and breaks immersion; doing it yourself increases immesion and leaves the player able to make choices. What benefit am I missing? It just seems like you've got this idea fixated in your head, started arguing about it, and now don't want to give it up just because it's the side you started on.

 

My apologies if I come off 'aggressive.' Bold and italics are for emphasis of important points; that is the reason those font modifiers exist- their intended purpose. I don't mean to be rude, but I have little patience for people who refuse objective logic.

 

 

Edit: Ah, sorry, missed the "drop the microphone" post. For the record- I'm not moderating right now. I'm debating. I never insulted anyone, used any sweeping generalizations, or any other rude arguing tactic. I may be terse, but that's not the equivalent of rude. What is rude is calling someone else rude mid-discussion, not replying to their points, and then leaving the thread. Cheers.

[Major_Malice]

So,

 

I think its pretty clear, no auto death from depression or anything involving the character doing stuff without your command.

 

I guess I should reevaluate the idea:

 

1. More options for character suicide. I know there is already drinking bleach, jumping out of second/third story buildings, and fire. There has been times when my character was scratched and then got zombified as a result, and I wanted the character to end it before he ended up turning but bleach is too slow, fire is unpredictable/ is hard to light a building on fire on purpose, and a taller building is not always available. XD

 

2. these options would be for the player to choose depending on the kind of character/situation they run into and possibly made so that the player cannot accidentally choose the option by making it only possible after their character's moodle is very depressed. Would hate to have it you try to reload your pistol and choose the option by mistake!

 

Honestly I feel kinda silly about starting this thread considering it is a very dark suggestion. Lol, people are going to start thinking weird things about me! >_>

[Burianu]

Psychological choices should be left to the player as that immerses you in the game and makes you feel like you are the character. When the character makes choices without you (starving to death is a consequence, killing yourself is a choice; say what you want about my "aggressive argument" comparing the two is absolutely broken logic objectively) it breaks immersion and as I've said repeatedly, is bad game design.

 

If you want your character to commit suicide when depressed- just commit suicide when they're depressed. That's all it takes; just roleplay as being depressed and drink the bleach/take the pills/jump off the roof/whatever.

 

Can you tell me one thing that this trait would add to the gameplay? Because as I've illustrated above, whether it's a trait or not it limits the player and breaks immersion; doing it yourself increases immesion and leaves the player able to make choices. What benefit am I missing? It just seems like you've got this idea fixated in your head, started arguing about it, and now don't want to give it up just because it's the side you started on.

 

My apologies if I come off 'aggressive.' Bold and italics are for emphasis of important points; that is the reason those font modifiers exist- their intended purpose. I don't mean to be rude, but I have little patience for people who refuse objective logic.

 

 

Edit: Ah, sorry, missed the "drop the microphone" post. For the record- I'm not moderating right now. I'm debating. I never insulted anyone, used any sweeping generalizations, or any other rude arguing tactic. I may be terse, but that's not the equivalent of rude. What is rude is calling someone else rude mid-discussion, not replying to their points, and then leaving the thread. Cheers.

 

The benefit, in my opinion, is another loss condition that this game could use.  No one would suicide from depression if it were merely player choice, because one of the biggest temptations for suicide in a zombie apocalypse is escape from the pain and fear present in the world.  I see this is a very, very controversial topic, and give up trying to argue my opinion.  Maybe I'll mod it in if I feel so inclined, but I probably won't since most people seem to be opposed to the idea.

[Rathlord]

The benefit, in my opinion, is another loss condition that this game could use.  No one would suicide from depression if it were merely player choice, because one of the biggest temptations for suicide in a zombie apocalypse is escape from the pain and fear present in the world.

 

Ah, I understand where you're coming from now. From a "power-gaming" standpoint, you're absolutely right- no one will do that. But I think you're underestimating the community- there's a whole big bunch of us (myself included) who play this game in an attempt to be as immersed as possible- for the experience, not for the game so to speak.

 

My only rebuttal would be that power-gamers are likely not going to take that trait anyways, and roleplayers will want to be able to do it themselves when and where they're ready to. So I'm still not sure it would ever see much use.

[GoldenBullet]

Umm yea it's bad enough that there are already guns located in schools, I seriously don't think that PZ should started endorsing forced suicide. If you want to go that badly there is always that friendly bottle of bleach located under every cabinet. It should also be noted that the vast majority of suicide attempts end in failure, so your more likely just to just cripple yourself and look like a fool than actually end your life.

[Ewok]

I'll not comment on the idea of a character automatically committing suicide, except to say I'm not in favour of this for the reasons outlined above.

 

What may be interesting is the concept of a player voluntarily committing suicide with a firearm when infected, in such a manner that they will then not reaminimate upon death (when this feature is re-introduced, of course) - this could come in handy in multiplayer.

 

Of course, one concern is that everyone would immediately blow their brains out upon infection, which likely wouldn't happen in real life, so there would have to be some contraol - perhaps tied into the depression moodle in line with other suggestions above.