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Improvements to the PVP System


Weighland

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I searched the forum and didn't find anything about this. I'm really bad at this. I don't have much luck in forums but I guess I should try.

 

I've been playing the game now for 10 days with 137 hours (the game is very addictive mostly because of the community) mostly playing in PVP servers. I am a DayZ player and I think that PVP gives more thrill to the game because unlike bandits, zombies can't reach you above the ground level and by stocking food, you can survive forever which is not my interest.

 

In the next lines that you're about to read are some comparisons to other games. Viewer discretion is advised. I am not saying that the game is inferior to them but rather learn from them and make the game better. Let us not be biased on what we already have and always have room for improvements. I hope you do not hate me for doing this. I added spoilers to the comparisons so you can read in your discretion.

 

This will not only affect PVP in online but PVE with NPC survivors in the near future.

 

Moving on to the subject, I think that the PVP system is neatly done but has a few number of flaws. Here's a list of a few things that should be worked on. Feel free to agree or disagree on my opinions.

 

1. Stealth in PVP

 

The only stealth you can have on other players is by aiming your mouse at the edge of your screen to see the player from afar. The player you're stalking can do this as well and easily see you.

 

Warning: Comparison

Being a DayZ player who looks at towns hundreds of meters away to find a threat, I think that finding another player in Project Zomboid who is possibly stalking you for your gear is too easy. Searching for players to kill is just as well (although I have never done it.)

 

Cat and mouse gameplay is one of the best way to add intensity to PVP. Imagine a bandit shooting you and you don't know where he is. In zomboid reality, you aim around and you see that skull above him then shoot him back and I think they need to work on that.

 

It will also balance the game. Let's say a player with sprint lvl 10 who kills everyone chases a fresh spawn because he saw his name. If the fresh spawn is smart, he can hide even after the bandit sees him. But because of minor flaws in the game, this is not likely.

 

Sometimes, when I'm walking outside the street and aiming through windows, a name pops up. Sometimes with a skull which makes it a lot more noticable.

 

Right now, I have 2 suggestions in mind.

 

Warning: Another comparison:

A suggestion I have for this is from the game Red Dead Redemption. In hardcore mode of multiplayer in RDR, everyone has a marker in the minimap so you can find players better. But there is a twist in it. It is only revealed if you run or ride a horse.

 

I suggest that in game, you only see the name of the player if they are running but while walking or standing still, the name will not be revealed unless you're close to the player.

 

The new problem will be knowing if they have safety on or off. Since there is a safety system, I think that they can only add this feature if your safety is off.  A drawback to that is that bandits would have the advantage. A change in color perhaps? I think this problem can be easily fixed with a little creativity.

 

I have another idea because of Aniketos mentioning the ability of the characters on spotting and their "eyesight". Yes, that means now we will have more effects for the eagle eyed and short sighted traits.

 

The idea is that the name of others will be showed only if your character's ability to see them is in effect. An eagle eyed player will see the name of a player from afar and a shortsighted one will have to get closer to see it. I use shortsighted trait and I don't notice a difference. This might help balance these traits and make them more effective.

 

 

2. The Safety System

 

I think that the safety system adds a more friendly and less KOS pvp community. That is great indeed but it also adds more traitors and betrayals. You all know this as a player with safety on who says he's friendly. Later on, you see that skull then he either bashes you with a bat, axe your neck or put a bullet on your head.

 

Warning: Another comparison. Skip this if you're already mad at me.

In DayZ this is more known as the "friendly" word. That word is one that you can never trust so you if you have the advantage, you tell him to drop his gun because if not, you are going to die unless you are really lucky. As you can see, the safety system removes this cautious approach since they can't hurt you. Well at least not yet.

 

The safety system adds more "trust" in a person with safety on and less with the players who have it off. This might not be much of a problem but It can affect the community. Trash talks about traitors and liars are frequent in global chat when this happens.

 

I've read that there is a 1 second window after turning off safety but what if you're not looking at the player? What if he stays behind you waiting for the opportunity to strike? How about the less fortunate players who has bad connection? Would they have enough time to react?

 

I noticed that when you toggle your safety mode, there is a delay bar. I'm not sure how that works. Does it show the skull already while it's activating? If not, then maybe add that to the system. Also a text saying "Player safety is turning off" above the said player that would be seen from behind would be good.

 

Like I said, this is not a major flaw, but it might affect the community. This can be also abused to take advantage of the enemy. The community is the reason why I play. It's fun to be around people from all over the world with good sense of humor. Sometimes, things like these just happen and it is not fun.

 

3. Player Health system

 

This section may have mistakes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

In the first few days playing the game, I was impressed about how detailed and realistic the medical system works. Treating each different wound differently depending on their nature made me very interested in the game. After playing in a PVP server for a while, I started having questions.

 

Warning: Just a story. No comparison this time. :P

So me and my friend were out on West Point looking for padlocks. Then this bandit shows up. He shot up my friend a few times before we put him down. My friend and I quickly bandaged the wounds to lessen the bleeding before I started stitching them. I noticed that there was a bullet lodged in his head. I treated the wound normally and he became fine like there his brain is not in his head. No brain damage or unconciousness at all. I think we should do something about that.

 

The effectiveness of firearms or other weapons of a player depends on their skill. Sometimes, I one shot zombies with an axe or do a headshot with pistols. This might mean that there is a chance for a critical hit.

 

The skills works well on zombies, but no effect on players except for firearms that helps you hit your target and also that rapid firing pistol at lvl 10 aim (which is very deadly). Maybe the damage as well but I think it needs more work.

 

I suggest an overhaul of the player health system that adds places where vital organs are at. Arteries and vulnerable bones as well. That way, when a critical hit is scored, a vital spot is damaged and will be harder to treat by normal means. Yes this means an overhaul of the medical system as well. It will be a lot of work but will make the game much more realistic and harder.

 

Here are some ideas:

  • Damage in your lungs deals severe amounts of damage and will get you easily exhausted.
  • Damage in your stomach deals severe amounts of damage and requires you to have more food. Or maybe you can't eat? Not sure which is better or more realistic.
  • Damage in your brain deals massive amounts of damage and gives you bad coordination (like when you're drunk) and also a massive reduction in many skills like aim, accuracy. Also adds a reduction in action speed and if possible, unconsciousness.
  • Damage in your arteries deals severe amounts of damage and you will suffer from a very severe bleeding until it is treated
  • Damage in your spinal chord deals severe amounts of damage will periodically 'paralyze' your character for a few seconds.
  • Damage in your eyes deals a significant amount of damage and will deteriorate your vision.
  • Damage in your legs deals a significant amount of damage will obviously reduce your speed.
  • Damage in your arms deals a significant amount of damage, slow down melee attacks, massively reduce accuracy and reduce the effectiveness of weight reduction when equipping an item.
  • Damage in your heart will deal massive amounts of damage will affect exhaustion, fatigue (in SP) and makes you suffer from massive bleeding unless treated.
  • Damage in liver deals severe amounts of damage gives you a chance of food poisoning even if the food is clean.
  • Damage in your ears deals a significant amount of damage and will impair your hearing.
  • Damage in your kidneys deals severe amounts of damage and will sometimes poison you even if the water is clean it will also affect your thirst.
  • Damage on any other bone will deal a significant amount of damage and will behave differently on each limb.

All vital points deal damage overtime until they are treated.

I'm not really good in biology so if there are more vital organs that I need to add, tell me.

 

"So Weighland, how will we treat these organ damages?"

I'm no medical expert but for this to happen, it will need an overhaul of the medical system.

 

So some of you will say that the guns deal large amounts of damage already to allow more damage. Yes this will also mean an overhaul of the weaponry. It can stay the same for the zombies, but should change when it comes to players.

 

In reality, I think that there are few elements of weapons that will allow damage to the human body.

  1. Velocity/Force - The higher the velocity along with the weight of the weapon/projectile before impact, the higher the damage.
  2. Sturdiness/Material - The harder the object, the less time of impact (the higher the time of impact, the less the force.) This means the harder the object, the higher the damage.
  3. The shape of the weapon/projectile (this is where we will focus on) - A blunt weapon will cause bruises or broken bones. A sharp weapon will cause scratches, cuts and maybe dismemberment if added to the game (most probably not because no one wants to lose their arms.) Projectiles will penetrate your skin, flesh and sometimes bones depending on the projectile.

"So Weighland, where is this going? What about the damage?"

Well I think we need to completely remove the damage of the weapons on players.

"How will we kill if we don't deal damage?"

You will deal wounds. Different kinds of wounds on different kinds of weapons. The damage will be dealt by the wounds, not the gun. The gun will simply cause them.

 

  • A blunt weapon, a baseball bat or a crowbar will cause bruises and sometimes scratches. A critical hit scored on a bat will break a bone. An upgrade to the bat will cause it to deal scratches. Deep wounds on the bone that will be broken is dealt in a critical strike.
  • A sledgehammer will instantly break a bone and cause bruises if hit. If a critical hit is scored, It can break the spinal chord or damage an organ.
  • A blade weapon, a knife (Kitchen and Hunting knife has roughly the same shape and only their durability will make a difference) for example will cause scratches with average bleeding. A critical hit will deal a deep wound, a stab, that deals significant bleeding. It may also cut an artery or damage an organ on a critical hit.
  • An axe will cause deep cuts on hit and significant bleeding. A critical hit can break a bone, tear an artery or damage an organ. It may also damage the spinal chord.
  • A butter knife won't do much but deal scratches with minor bleeding. Maybe it will stab on a critical hit then add a deep wound with significant bleeding.
  • Guns can deal scratches at a low aim levels, around lvl 0-2 (can still cause deep wounds) but will always deal deep wounds on levels higher then 2 by bullet holes. The damage will still depend on the bullet. All types of bullets can damage all vital points.
  • A 9mm ammo can deal damage on arteries and organs and can sometimes penetrate bones. The skull protects the brain and the ribs protect the heart but can still be penetrated with a medium chance. If it does not penetrate the skull, the bullet is still there but no damage is done to the organ. (Yes I know 9mm can penetrate them but it needs balancing. Imagine a rapid fire destroying your brain.)
  • A shotgun shell will deal the effects of 9mm multiple times, depending on the range fired and aim skill of the shooter. It will have a lower chance to penetrate the skull and ribs.
  • Both rifle rounds can penetrate through the skull and ribs easily. It will always hit with deep wounds since it needs a high aim skill to operate effectively. A critical shot will have have the same chance to hit the brain and the heart as any other organ.

As you can see, all normal hits will cause bleeding or bruises (which is painful and counted as minor bleeding) in exception to the sledgehammer.

 

"So Weighland, you're suggesting we turn 'health' into 'blood'? Just like in your other game?" Not necessarily but it is a much better representation to the system. And no it's not another comparison to the other game since there you just bleed. In this system, your wounds will cause the bleeding and death.

 

"So if i shoot you 16 times with a pistol in less than 2 seconds, I still need to wait for around 3 seconds before you bleed out?" Well, if your aim is low, most of them will be scratches and yes you will wait. On the other hand, if you score a critical hit, significant amounts of damage are instantly dealt after damaging a certain organ.

 

"This critical hit seems nasty. How will this work?"

Here's how. The base chance for a critical hit is 10%. Each point in the skill will add 1.5% to melee, 1.5% to shotguns, and 1% to rifles and pistols. When the skills are maxed out they will be 25% in melee. The shotgun has a 25% critical chance in max aim and divides this chance to each pellet landed on the target. The pistol and rifle's chance is halved when you start aiming which then doubles after aiming for a short duration. This means that in max aim, it starts off at 10% then rises up to 20% depending on the time spent in aiming. Remember, higher aiming skill means faster aiming time. This will mean you have to train your aim or accuracy up if you want to be victorious in a firefight.

 

This is just my idea of how to improve the Player Health system. It is a lot of work, I know. It might never be implemented but I'm just here suggesting ideas. Maybe TIS will get some out of it.

 

Feel free to add your opinions. If I think it's good or if most of you think it is, I will add it to the list. I will also update this if I have new ideas.

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sneaking system I confirmed with new animations. thers a sneak peak in one mondoid over month ago.

For other things its hard to compare pvp aspects in 3D game and isometric.

The safty system is to not kill your allies when you choop zombies or shoot to them. I remember 1st MP build (24) without that system and it was pain to fight as a group. what I would like to see is group system so you can be frendly to some players and hostile to others at the same time. With current system group pvp is pain in the ass coz most of the time frendly fire will be the issue.

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  1. Improved stealth capabilities are already in the works - check out the last few months of Mondoids

     

    Sometimes, when I'm walking outside the street and aiming through windows, a name pops up. Sometimes with a skull which makes it a lot more noticable.

    I interpret this phenomena as a consequence of the game-world knowledge distinction... In any role-playing simulation, the ruleset often determines how far the distinction between player knowledge and character knowledge extends. In Project Zomboid, we rely on our characters' abilities in order to survive, and our character's traits determine how the world is presented to us - a character with good eyesight sees more that one with poor eyesight.

    When a name pops up in a shadowy window, I interpret it as my character spotting another person in the game-world - it doesn't matter whether or not I would have actually seen the other person (nor should it be dependant on how good MY eyesight is as a player) - all I have is a primarily 2D representation of an incredibly detailed world. What the game does by dropping a character name on my screen is an attempt to draw my attention to new character knowledge: "HEY! Your character just caught a glimpse of someone else right HERE!"

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The Safety system is customizable. On SpiffoSpace PVP, for example, it takes about a minute to turn it off . . . Then you're stuck in it for quite a while (and even longer if you kill someone).

 

I'm pretty sure it takes seconds to turn safety off. It then can't be turned back on for a while after you turn it off. Players can easily trick others for that.

 

By the way I lost the spiffo in a firefight with 2 bandits. I killed one but they took spiffo off my corpse. Give me a new one please I'm so lonely :(

 

sneaking system I confirmed with new animations. thers a sneak peak in one mondoid over month ago.

For other things its hard to compare pvp aspects in 3D game and isometric.

The safty system is to not kill your allies when you choop zombies or shoot to them. I remember 1st MP build (24) without that system and it was pain to fight as a group. what I would like to see is group system so you can be frendly to some players and hostile to others at the same time. With current system group pvp is pain in the ass coz most of the time frendly fire will be the issue.

 

I appreciate the sneaking system but I don't think it makes a difference to players. Yes, I suppose it will be hard to see people when the roof or a wall is covering them. Maybe an option to hide the roofs and always see the rooms?

 

I do believe the safety system is useful when fighting together, zombies or people, but can also be used to trick people. I think we need a warning system for a nearby player who is turning safety off.

 

A suggestion about the names and skulls appearing. If there will be a new sneaking system, I suggest that when the players sneak, their name is hidden further until players get really close to them. It might add a nice touch to stealth in PVP.

 

 

 

  1. I interpret this phenomena as a consequence of the game-world knowledge distinction... In any role-playing simulation, the ruleset often determines how far the distinction between player knowledge and character knowledge extends. In Project Zomboid, we rely on our characters' abilities in order to survive, and our character's traits determine how the world is presented to us - a character with good eyesight sees more that one with poor eyesight.

    When a name pops up in a shadowy window, I interpret it as my character spotting another person in the game-world - it doesn't matter whether or not I would have actually seen the other person (nor should it be dependant on how good MY eyesight is as a player) - all I have is a primarily 2D representation of an incredibly detailed world. What the game does by dropping a character name on my screen is an attempt to draw my attention to new character knowledge: "HEY! Your character just caught a glimpse of someone else right HERE!"

I like the way you think of it. Kind of makes sense but the fact that you can still easily see them is there. I think stealth should not only be available to zombies but to players as well. Well I have an idea for the ability of the characters.

 

You mentioning about the eyesight gave me an idea to an improvement the shortsighted and eagle eyed traits. Maybe you will see the name of the player farther away with the eagle eyed? I use shortsighted trait and I do not notice a difference at all so these might balance those traits.

 

Will be adding those later.

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i like the idea. they do need to make it similar to what you said. Stealth will play a part instead of shoot them now! *pew pew* But yea +1

I'm glad you agree with me. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them.

 

I also edited the post to add the effects of shortsighted and eagle eyed traits.

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i like the idea. they do need to make it similar to what you said. Stealth will play a part instead of shoot them now! *pew pew* But yea +1

I'm glad you agree with me. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them.

 

I also edited the post to add the effects of shortsighted and eagle eyed traits.

 

oh cool. but it seems you only really covered stealth and features about trust. (From hat i skimmed) So possibly a better combat system too. Not just aim for the head and kill. Aiming at knees, hands, arms, and etc. for non-lethal escapes. That would be nice.

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i like the idea. they do need to make it similar to what you said. Stealth will play a part instead of shoot them now! *pew pew* But yea +1

I'm glad you agree with me. If you have any suggestions, feel free to post them.

 

I also edited the post to add the effects of shortsighted and eagle eyed traits.

 

oh cool. but it seems you only really covered stealth and features about trust. (From hat i skimmed) So possibly a better combat system too. Not just aim for the head and kill. Aiming at knees, hands, arms, and etc. for non-lethal escapes. That would be nice.

 

The fact that we rely on the ability of the character to aim in the game already does fine in my taste. As they said, a higher level aim will give more chance for a 'critical' hit. Although yes this only works on zombies. My friend was shot on the head once and he was fine right after I stitched it. No brain damage, etc. Maybe an improvement to the medical system will be more viable for this, allowing critical hits to the player be placed on vital organs making them harder to treat. All in time but first, they will have to improve the medical system.

 

Will be adding them to my post.

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  • 2 weeks later...

 

also a better bare handed combat. that would be nice

Not a bad idea but it would be rarely used. For fun I guess? Usually players will be using guns for PVP, not fists.

 

well say you spawn and the guy down your street did the same, you both are weaponless and wont back down. or say a friend/NPC isn't listening to you, you punch them to get there attention.there are some reasons.

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also a better bare handed combat. that would be nice

Not a bad idea but it would be rarely used. For fun I guess? Usually players will be using guns for PVP, not fists.

 

well say you spawn and the guy down your street did the same, you both are weaponless and wont back down. or say a friend/NPC isn't listening to you, you punch them to get there attention.there are some reasons.

 

Well, it would be better than pushing each other. :P Anyways, if the devs wanted that to be in the game it would be there already. There is a melee button after all. Again, it's not a bad idea. Maybe it will be implemented when it is needed. Maybe unconciousness will come with it? It might be useful to beat some sense into a player or an NPC though.

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also a better bare handed combat. that would be nice

Not a bad idea but it would be rarely used. For fun I guess? Usually players will be using guns for PVP, not fists.

 

well say you spawn and the guy down your street did the same, you both are weaponless and wont back down. or say a friend/NPC isn't listening to you, you punch them to get there attention.there are some reasons.

 

Well, it would be better than pushing each other. :P Anyways, if the devs wanted that to be in the game it would be there already. There is a melee button after all. Again, it's not a bad idea. Maybe it will be implemented when it is needed. Maybe unconciousness will come with it? It might be useful to beat some sense into a player or an NPC though.

 

yea. still it would be nice now just for fun. plus it could be a stepping stone for future builds.

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  • 6 months later...

As far as I am aware, you can set up the safety time out amd set it to something longer, like EG said.

Seeing player names can be disabled as well. I am not a fan of seeing them at all if you're not an admin.

There have been discussions about some sort of hand-shake system, basically introducing yourself with a name and the option whether or not it being your true name.

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You might not be too sure about these suggestions but what if a gunshot to the arm did no damage to your actual health just bleeding. And you also had a separate blood condition bar. Once the blood bar gets low you get dizzy and eventually die. Also for heart injuries it doesn't matter, it is almost impossible to survive any injury to the heart without modern medical treatment at a hospital which isn't available in PZ

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