The Dawn of the Carpenters

[Blasted_Taco]

I love the new skills and profession system, i really want to get my hands on it, i love when you can build different characters like in Cataclysm DDA, but the one concern i have with this new system is that when is out, i am like 80% sure that most people will play Carpenter only.

 

Both in SP and MP, for the reason alone of begin a carpenter equals to have a infinite water source.

 

I feel like i am railroaded to be a carpenter on all the playthoughs or servers for the sole reason of water, i know that you can still go to toilets and get some water, but still some day that water is going to be dry or that area is going to get infested for X reason.

 

Why cant we draw water from the river? I think we have the items (bleach, campfire or maybe add tablets) to atleast boil the water and drink it.

 

Or some bucket? Maybe a tarp? If we have more options other than carpentery to gain water, i think more people would use different professions or not begin a harden carpenter of 1 week old apocalypse?

 

Is really the only complain i have, i dont like having to be a carpenter to be able to get water, what if i want to be a overweight, asthmatic, anti social NEET in the game?

 

I would be able to get water from toilets and sinks sure, but if i want to live in the woods, i need to have some barrels with me otherwise i will die of thirst.

 

Pls tell me that you guys are adding the TV and Radio programs next update

[EreWeGo]

I'd like this as an option to collect water:

 

Wheelie Bin + Garbage Bag + Duct Tape

 

No Carpentry required, could make it so you need to replace garbage bags, make water stagnate etc to balance out?

[Realmkeeper]

There was a time before water collectors, a time of chaos, a time when survival was difficult.

 

I'd like to think a return to the good ol' days of PZ is now upon us, and all these people moaning about how we must become a carpenter to survive, will become carpenters to survive.

The rest of us will experience a return to our roots, to a time when survival was a challenge, and explore the possibilities these new skills and hobbies have to offer.

 

 

Edit: On reflection, this is a rather 'You damn whippersnappers, get off my lawn!' type post.

What I was trying to convey, is that there was once a time without water collectors, where admittedly players flocked to the wells. But there was also no fishing, scavenging, or trapping - and that meant the primary objective for most players was finding nutrition to survive.

Building a 'kick-ass' fortress, with it's own crop garden and water supply was not even a viable option for most people, and construction was something only a few players considered necessary.

We called those few players, carpenters.

 

The possiblities in PZ have expanded, soo much more than when I first played, and with it the focus for survival has gone from food and water, to long-term protection. I'm going to be quite pleased to be handed a bad hand of cards, and forced to play in a manner a little different from what I've got used to. It keeps the game fresh, and encourages me to try tactics and explore possibilities I would not have bothered to do otherwise.

[EnigmaGrey]

No point in repeating myself, or Lemmy: http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/12626-mondoid-question/

tl;dr: alternatives happen over  time, they're not generally rushed in before a system is out and tweaked with PZ (see: Windows That Kill! and the original water shortage system). Those who feel they must be carpenters, or have carpentry-related traits (!) can do so, if they so desire.

[Blasted_Taco]

There was a time before water collectors, a time of chaos, a time when survival was difficult.

 

I'd like to think a return to the good ol' days of PZ is now upon us, and all these people moaning about how we must become a carpenter to survive, will become carpenters to survive.

The rest of us will experience a return to our roots, to a time when survival was a challenge, and explore the possibilities these new skills and hobbies have to offer.

 

 

Edit: On reflection, this is a rather 'You damn whippersnappers, get off my lawn!' type post.

What I was trying to convey, is that there was once a time without water collectors, where admittedly players flocked to the wells. But there was also no fishing, scavenging, or trapping - and that meant the primary objective for most players was finding nutrition to survive.

Building a 'kick-ass' fortress, with it's own crop garden and water supply was not even a viable option for most people, and construction was something only a few players considered necessary.

We called those few players, carpenters.

 

The possiblities in PZ have expanded, soo much more than when I first played, and with it the focus for survival has gone from food and water, to long-term protection. I'm going to be quite pleased to be handed a bad hand of cards, and forced to play in a manner a little different from what I've got used to. It keeps the game fresh, and encourages me to try tactics and explore possibilities I would not have bothered to do otherwise.

 

Oh i know those days well enough, i know how it felt having no food at all and begin closed in a city with tons of zombies and you becoming death incarnated with a fire axe, as for the water shortage system it used to be a well in the middle of the farm, that was literally the only way to draw water.

 

I hope alternatives show up sooner or later, for now we carpenters now.

[EreWeGo]

There was a time before water collectors, a time of chaos, a time when survival was difficult.

 

I'd like to think a return to the good ol' days of PZ is now upon us, and all these people moaning about how we must become a carpenter to survive, will become carpenters to survive.

The rest of us will experience a return to our roots, to a time when survival was a challenge, and explore the possibilities these new skills and hobbies have to offer.

 

 

Edit: On reflection, this is a rather 'You damn whippersnappers, get off my lawn!' type post.

What I was trying to convey, is that there was once a time without water collectors, where admittedly players flocked to the wells. But there was also no fishing, scavenging, or trapping - and that meant the primary objective for most players was finding nutrition to survive.

Building a 'kick-ass' fortress, with it's own crop garden and water supply was not even a viable option for most people, and construction was something only a few players considered necessary.

We called those few players, carpenters.

 

The possiblities in PZ have expanded, soo much more than when I first played, and with it the focus for survival has gone from food and water, to long-term protection. I'm going to be quite pleased to be handed a bad hand of cards, and forced to play in a manner a little different from what I've got used to. It keeps the game fresh, and encourages me to try tactics and explore possibilities I would not have bothered to do otherwise.

I don't disagree, and even with the current build, I don't follow the "easy route" as far as  Profession, traits etc, (in fact I recently had a game where I purposely chose ALL the negative traits as Unemployed, and no positive traits - I think I lasted around 14 Days  )

 

If I have any concern it's that many, (not all), players will think/feel they have to choose carpenter to survive. I'd like for players to see a good reason to not choose the "standard".

 

Lots of people like to build their safehouse/fort, and they also know they need water to survive long term. Sure, there are other ways to achieve this, but why would they when they can just choose carpenter, and start straight away with the ability, (if not the tools), to do this?

 

It'll be interesting to see how players react to the changes, I'm hoping that we'll all try various combinations to assist with testing and balancing to improve the game as a whole...

[wsensor]

I think adding in different crafting types and making people find manuals for some to build things would work.

 

This would also work for special designs and such.

IE: Basic chair is all you can build of wood. However if you find an instruction manual you might be able to build a rocking chair or a different model of chair.

 

Give those who chose a base skill in a crafting type some standard recipes that others would have to read books/instruction guides for.

Some zombies (if they are given a job type before turning zombie might have an instruction manual on how to do something to teach the players.)

There are also lots of libraries/bookstores/bookshelves in the game to hold special items of these types.

 

IE; Carpenter gives you a bonus to carpentering (spelling?) skills however construction worker would not necessarily give you the same bonus.

 

I mean as a construction worker you would be more used to building certain things so you might do better outright with building with concrete and bricks and heavy stuff than wood.

[Sadeyx]

oh this again? lol

 

look, its only a 4 point trait to get carpentry, you will not need to take the carpentry 'proffesion'

 

The profffesion gives you 3 points in carpentry AND faster leveling, which means your going to have carpentry 5 within no time if you read books as well. - what a waste!  you would much rather points in other things.

 

I think people will quickly realise that the 'proffesion' will be very undesirable one to take. since the 'trait' will do just fine.

[Guest easy AI opponent]

oh this again? lol

 

look, its only a 4 point trait to get carpentry, you will not need to take the carpentry 'proffesion'

 

The profffesion gives you 3 points in carpentry AND faster leveling, which means your going to have carpentry 5 within no time if you read books as well. - what a waste!  you would much rather points in other things.

 

I think people will quickly realise that the 'proffesion' will be very undesirable one to take. since the 'trait' will do just fine.

 

The OP is not only about the carpentry profession...

...BUT also about the unrealistic constrain on water collection that is tied with this profession/skill.

Many times asked but left unanswered: Why not use buckets or wheelie bins + plastic bags?

[Sadeyx]

 

Many times asked but left answered: Why not use buckets or wheelie bins + plastic bags?

 

It has been answered in the link Enigma provided.

 

There will be other water functions added,  but you know.. early access, beta.. things not done yet?

 

In anycase, since when has water ever been such a pressing concern?  Never!.. so what, suddenly getting water might now actually pose the slightest, smallest possibility of being a challenge? *gasp* lets take to the forums and rage about it! ¬.¬

[Guest easy AI opponent]

 

 

Many times asked but left answered: Why not use buckets or wheelie bins + plastic bags?

 

It has been answered in the link Enigma provided.

 

There will be other water functions added,  but you know.. early access, beta.. things not done yet?

 

In anycase, since when has water ever been such a pressing concern?  Never!.. so what, suddenly getting water might now actually pose the slightest, smallest possibility of being a challenge? *gasp* lets take to the forums and rage about it! ¬.¬

 

 

Sry could not find the confirmation that other functions for water will be added!?

 

I could only find lenghty arguments on how easy it would be to get some skills in carpentry...

 

However the real problem is that its not a challenge to find or collect water in Kentucky rather than if this water is drinkable..and if you have the means to clean it.

[Jack Bower]

We may not be pigeonholed into being a carpenter if out of the crap ton of new traits we end up getting pigeonholed into 20 points into speed stats, and if you don't get those speed stats you will literally be a sitting duck 24/7 as you do everything. So it might be hard to actually get very far as a specialized carpenter.

 

I am looking forward to the update. I have been experimenting with the current trait system for awhile and I think I am pretty prepared to take the big -6 strength hit now that the free stats light drinker and quick to anger are removed.

 

I am expecting to see unemployed become the big favorite because you can just learn all your skills at a 1:1 ratio and just be thuglife out on the streets with full speed stats and possibly if one is added something that makes you level sprinting even faster.

[Ohbal]

Sry could not find the confirmation that other functions for water will be added!?

 

 

Its on the third page:

 

Lemmy101 said:

"And yes we were talking about how to provide more mechanics for water"

 

They are talking about it, nothing confirmed, but I'd say its likely on its way. And its not necessarily the bucket thingy, I guess they are looking for alternative mechanics. 

[Svarog]

Meh, let's be honest, once this goes live it will take a few days for people to find an optimal character build and never touch any other, it will change nothing when it comes to survival, if someone likes to play with a hammer he will get something that will make it easy for him. 

The entire profession\trait system overhaul is more for NPCs than it is for players, it will make NPCs more real because NPCs are going to have to survive with sub optimal or straight up bad character builds while most players will stick to whatever cuts it for them.

[Ohbal]

Meh, let's be honest, once this goes live it will take a few days for people to find an optimal character build and never touch any other, it will change nothing when it comes to survival, if someone likes to pay with a hammer he will get something that will make it easy for him. 

 

I'm on that boat but in this thread there is already people exposing they play the other way around (looking for different experience on each game based on their characters set up), so I guess we'll have a little bit of both.

 

Let's wait and see  

[Marinus]

I feel like i am railroaded to be a carpenter on all the playthoughs or servers for the sole reason of water, i know that you can still go to toilets and get some water, but still some day that water is going to be dry or that area is going to get infested for X reason.

 

You can draw water for an extra two times from each faucet once water cuts off. It doesn't matter what size containers you use, so if you stock up on pots and use those to tap the last water, every single house will give you additional weeks (if not months) of drinking water You can even run a farm without much trouble if you keep it compact and let rain do most of the watering. It will run out eventually, yes, but that's really of no realistic concern during a typical play-trough. And even when it runs dry after years in-game, it's perfectly possible to haul new water in from the well. 

 

Water barrels are very convenient but far from an absolute must-have, especially not if you don't plan on running a farm.

[Moose65]

It has been answered in the link Enigma provided.

 

 

There will be other water functions added,  but you know.. early access, beta.. things not done yet?

 

In anycase, since when has water ever been such a pressing concern?  Never!.. so what, suddenly getting water might now actually pose the slightest, smallest possibility of being a challenge? *gasp* lets take to the forums and rage about it! ¬.¬

 

 

Its more of a concern that the carpentry trait will be a "must have" if there is not an alternate means of water collection available. Were hoping to not see "MUST HAVE" traits like before with light drinker + brooding + short tempered. Its not about the fact that it costs 4 points to grab, a lot of people simply don't want to see it as mandatory.

 

Honestly, there is already easy solutions to infinite water + food without rain barrels. But for anyone wanting to setup a permanent location without rain barrels that doesn't involve a well is where the problem is. Even your most basic rain barrel was moved to level 3, and at a 1/3 XP penalty, it would take you 5700 XP to reach that if you didn't take any of the traits and were unfortunate to not find any skill books (keep in mind as well barricading was fixed to provide no XP). That's 1900 planks sawed at current rates, taking 950 trees cut down.

 

So yeah, everyone could suck it up and take that 4 point trait, but then it simply becomes an illusion for choice when its "required". Anyways, this whole thread is moot when they said they are providing alternate means, but this post here only served the purpose of aggravating others when water collection isn't even necessarily the main concern.

[blindcoder]

Sorry to blow my own horn on this, but hey, if anyone can tell me how I can create a "Fill water bottle from river" option into this mod:

http://theindiestone.com/forums/index.php/topic/10952-dirty-water-get-sick-by-drinking-from-the-toilet-rain-barrel/

I will certainly do so No Carpentry required, promise!

[Marco1]

Basically, slowing down early game is the solution to fix later game?

 

To make an example PZ could work with characters with specific skills already developed and some other locked or limited (after all zombie apocalypse is the worst moment to start a new hobby or learning in general and we must pretty much work with what we have and what we already know) if late game is the struggle to survive that would not make much difference. Obviously If the focus is on the survival aspect, but if you lvl up for nothing because game's not trying to kill you, leveling up is all you have...

 

Sorry to sound like a broken record...

 

To return ontopic, if this game is about "finding a nice way to level up" this discussion makes sense,talking about things like "why carpentry when I just can get water in the well?" , otherwise...

 

You "need" a rain barrel because it's currently the easiest way to get water and you need water to survive.

Once again, my concern is more "ok, now I have water, my plants are fine and I have more mushrooms than I could have ever imagined, now what?"

 

I am aware there's another thread about late game, but I think they're connected.

And some people  here seem like they don't understand why some users believe everyone would go for the carpenter...

[Leoquent]

You HAVE TO build a rain barrel, if YOU PREFER the easiest (or should i say the most convenient) playstyle, nothing else.

 

I'm looking forward to having other playstyles than the "build a base and never ever have to leave it again" approach.

The map is already gigantic and the water supply from sinks and toilets is nearly endless (You can even do water hauls to a well). But, yeah, you would have to leave your base for that.

 

Besides there will be NPCs with carpentry skills soon ^TM.

 

And we did not even test the whole thing by now.

 

This is an endless hypothetical discussion of the same thing again and again.
How about just waiting for the testbuild and enjoying a much stronger diversity in playstyle then. Amen.

 

There is only one point in this discussion, which i can understand at least a bit:

A pot or whatever droped in the rain should get filled with water.

But thats just another way to simplify gameplay, and that seems not to be the focus atm.

[Marco1]

You HAVE TO build a rain barrel, if YOU PREFER the easiest (or should i say the most convenient) playstyle, nothing else.

 

I'm looking forward to having other playstyles than the "build a base and never ever have to leave it again" approach.

The map is already gigantic and the water supply from sinks and toilets is nearly endless (You can even do water hauls to a well). But, yeah, you would have to leave your base for that.

 

Besides there will be NPCs with carpentry skills soon ^TM.

lol at the last one.

NPCs , we'll see.

And even if it was like you say...Right, one thing I need is someone else doing things for me!

So, I have some one cooking for me, someone building for me?

What else am I supposed to do in this game? Oh, yes, going to the well with a couple of buckets.

Or maybe Go killing zombies that are minding their own business while I have everything I need in my safehouse and I don't need anything else to survive?

I don't leave the safehouse, because there's no reason to, but of course I can, even now!

 

And we did not even test the whole thing by now.

 

This is an endless hypothetical discussion of the same thing again and again.

How about just waiting for the testbuild and enjoying a much stronger diversity in playstyle then. Amen.

Well, I think it wouldn't make much sense to talk about it when game is finished...

I am pretty aware what we're doing here.

About playstyle, well, once again we'll see. I don't see what could be different from now. You lvl up because you need it in order to survive, if you can survive in every other way, maybe not even developing some skills, what would it add to the game, variety? Are you sure?

Unless you're talking about "go to the mall please to get this or that and come back here" kind of mission...hmmm...is PZ that kind of game?

 

There is only one point in this discussion, which i can understand at least a bit:

A pot or whatever droped in the rain should get filled with water.

But thats just another way to simplify gameplay, and that seems not to be the focus atm.

You say simplify, I don't think so.

One thing could be easy to get but hard to maintain, instead of kind of hard (or slow) to build but once done you don't have to worry anymore.

Many users made good examples for water, that's not because they're too lazy to build a barrel, but because they want to add survival aspect to the game, helping late game therefore longevity.

[Leoquent]

As I said before:

I do understand, that there should be other ways than a rainbarrel. For reality's sake. But it's a game and making it easier (which it would become, because I would have even less reason to face zombies..) does not seem to be the focus in development at the moment.

 

But I, and (really) sorry if you feel offended, don't understand the reoccuring discussion about the theoretical "shoehorning" (or whatever, didn't know the term before), because I never were forced to build a rainbarrel by now. I would pick carpentry, because I like to build these bases.

 

No one has to build a farm in this game. I can live by chips alone for a long, long time right now.

And you could water crops by sinks and toilets (or a well) as well.

 

And even if it was like you say...Right, one thing I need is someone else doing things for me!
So, I have some one cooking for me, someone building for me?
What else am I supposed to do in this game? Oh, yes, going to the well with a couple of buckets.

 

Uhm, no. You got someone to build an "indespensable rainbarrel".

Maybe you could maintain a difficult npc community. Don't know. This is theoretical, too, sorry.

 

Or maybe Go killing zombies that are minding their own business while I have everything I need in my safehouse and I don't need anything else to survive?
I don't leave the safehouse, because there's no reason to, but of course I can, even now!

 

And many people are complaining about the "not having to leave my fortress" thingy.

 

 

 

And we did not even test the whole thing by now.
 
This is an endless hypothetical discussion of the same thing again and again.
How about just waiting for the testbuild and enjoying a much stronger diversity in playstyle then. Amen.

Well, I think it wouldn't make much sense to talk about it when game is finished...
I am pretty aware what we're doing here.

 

IMHO, it's better to discuss stuff, when I know more than just a few snippets and screenies about it.

As I said, let's wait for the build.

 

Or you continue to discuss vague stuff you heard a bit about. I have the opportunity to ignore this thread (but the dev's seem to care).

There were (a bit dissapointed sounding) developer-posts answering these topics, already.

 

I will stop here. I am very tired today (don't know why) and possibly sound more offending than intended (it's not my mother language). Sorry for that.

 

Have a nice day.

[Ohbal]

And many people are complaining about the "not having to leave my fortress" thingy.

 

That's a problem, I reckon I face. But to rephrase it a bit... what I would like to is to be forced to leave my fortress. In the very same fashion that happens in the Zombie Lore. You get overwhelmed, and have to run and look for a new base. 

 

In TWD it happens all the time. When you think you have things under control, something happens and you are on the road again. That's what I would very much like to find in this game: the game environment actively trying to kill me. It feels so anti-lore that you feel safer with each passing day... 

[EnigmaGrey]

Sry could not find the confirmation that other functions for water will be added!?

 

 

Its on the third page:

 

Lemmy101 said:

"And yes we were talking about how to provide more mechanics for water"

 

They are talking about it, nothing confirmed, but I'd say its likely on its way. And its not necessarily the bucket thingy, I guess they are looking for alternative mechanics.

And buckets (and other containers) being used to ineffectively collect rain is something Romain has wanted to do since his initial farming mod.

There's no reason to not do so . .  because this would be a terrible way to gain any meaningful supply of water in reality. This is why most rain collection schemes leverage large surface areas draining to a single point: just putting out a sheet of plastic and getting a few mm of rain per inch doesn't amount to much.

The real balance breaker would just be hauling water from the river right now: so long as you're in west point, you'd never want for water, unless you were forced to treat it some way (perhaps that could even be tied into something like foraging, or some more appropriate future skill) so that it can't simply be cheesed.

That said, I don't farm, and i don't do carpentry, online or offline. I loot and pillage and seem to do just fine in PZ that way.

 

 

And many people are complaining about the "not having to leave my fortress" thingy.

 

That's a problem, I reckon I face. But to rephrase it a bit... what I would like to is to be forced to leave my fortress. In the very same fashion that happens in the Zombie Lore. You get overwhelmed, and have to run and look for a new base. 

 

In TWD it happens all the time. When you think you have things under control, something happens and you are on the road again. That's what I would very much like to find in this game: the game environment actively trying to kill me. It feels so anti-lore that you feel safer with each passing day...

As far as I understand it, the only reason this hasn't happened yet is there's some problems with zombie spawning (the derogatory term for zombies migrating across a virtual map, to some).

And, to circumvent the inevitable "It should be other things than zombies!" discussion . . . I know, but it's the most obvious initial solution in a zombie game.

This is a discussion for another thread, though. And, for that matter, a discussion that happened several times in the Make the Late Game Kill You threads.

[Ohbal]

Oh dude, that picture is so f'ing awesome. I wish I was around on those builds, damn it!

 

For my part, I apologize for the amount of times I'm able to repeat myself.