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Player Death and Future NPC Interaction


ORMtnMan

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My suggestion is on how to deal with player death, "reincarnation" and interaction with NPCs.

 

So I have been pondering this,

 

Having died many times in the Sandbox mode and loading up the same map to go find my stuff lying around; the concept of NPCs as part of this seems like it might become an issue.

 

If the player dies and he has a large posse hanging around his base, if he comes back as a new character, the NPCs would have no idea who he is. He would have to develop all new relations probably be kept out of the base "he built" (in another life).

 

My suggestion would be instead of starting out a new character every time you die, if you have a group of NPCs, could there be an option to take control of one of them instead? That way it makes a more  contiuous story of your group survival.

 

This could lead to awesome situations where you lead a team into an infested area, get swarmed by zombies but only one of the NPCs manages to get out before the horde turns everyone into horderves.

 

I realize this may qualify under the "ending other than death category" but I would argue it does not. Your character still dies, you just get to choose whether to continue on with the story of your group or start a whole new character.

 

Let me know what you think on this... and sorry if someone else already suggested this.

 

EDIT:

 

Also, there could be an "ironman" check box option at game startup that prevents you from being able to respawn on a map at all. This way, everyone can be happy.

 

EDIT EDIT:

 

It should also be noted that this would only be a Sandbox setting as the other modes would be more hardcore and you can not change settings in Survival anyway.

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I don't like it, it would take away the tension.

 

Imagine every other game ever:

 

''Oh, I died? it's fine, I'l just respawn :D''

 

No tension what so ever.

 

The best thing about project zomboid is, if you are dead, you are dead, no checkpoints, no respawning, no nothing.

 

That's what I love about these kinds of things, for example in xcom:

 

You customize a soldier, and name him after your friends, you keep him along all the way, but then he died because a FUCKING SECTOID WENT UNNOTICED AND FLANKED HIM, THAT LITTLE SON OF A-

*ahem* excuse me, got a little bit carried away there...

(I miss colonel Jackson... :( )

 

But the best thing is the shock you get, and the tension of knowing that at any moment, all this could just end, with one.

single.

scratch.

 

And giving a respawn system.

ANY.

Kind of respawn system, will absolutely ruin it.

I want them to actually REMOVE the respawn system with another guy, because you know you will still have everything.

 

I want project zomboid to be a hard, brutal, unforgiving game, where the only xp you get, is of trial and error, and learning, and getting better at the game, not leveling up your character, but yourself aswell.

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I don't like it, it would take away the tension.

 

Imagine every other game ever:

 

''Oh, I died? it's fine, I'l just respawn :D''

 

No tension what so ever.

 

The best thing about project zomboid is, if you are dead, you are dead, no checkpoints, no respawning, no nothing.

 

That's what I love about these kinds of things, for example in xcom:

 

You customize a soldier, and name him after your friends, you keep him along all the way, but then he died because a FUCKING SECTOID WENT UNNOTICED AND FLANKED HIM, THAT LITTLE SON OF A-

*ahem* excuse me, got a little bit carried away there...

(I miss colonel Jackson... :( )

 

But the best thing is the shock you get, and the tension of knowing that at any moment, all this could just end, with one.

single.

scratch.

 

And giving a respawn system.

ANY.

Kind of respawn system, will absolutely ruin it.

I want them to actually REMOVE the respawn system with another guy, because you know you will still have everything.

 

I want project zomboid to be a hard, brutal, unforgiving game, where the only xp you get, is of trial and error, and learning, and getting better at the game, not leveling up your character, but yourself aswell.

 

Anyway, fair points all...

 

It would take the sting out of dying if you could just have another character standing nearby with equivalent abilities...

 

The fact is that we can respawn and it makes it will (probably) make it wierd. Also, somepeople like that continuity of storyline.

 

If anything they should make a separate harder "iron man" style checkbox you tick at the beginning that makes it so you can't "respawn" if you want it that way. (now we have two suggestions).

 

And to your X-Com allegory, the X-Com game doesn't end when your team dies... you keep all their stuff and just continue with another group... If your player dies... he is still dead... you just continue on with the group.

 

I would like to get more people's reactions to this idea to spark a more rounded conversation. If everyone is against it, that's cool, I'll walk away from it.

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I don't like it, it would take away the tension.

 

Imagine every other game ever:

 

''Oh, I died? it's fine, I'l just respawn :D''

 

No tension what so ever.

 

The best thing about project zomboid is, if you are dead, you are dead, no checkpoints, no respawning, no nothing.

 

That's what I love about these kinds of things, for example in xcom:

 

You customize a soldier, and name him after your friends, you keep him along all the way, but then he died because a FUCKING SECTOID WENT UNNOTICED AND FLANKED HIM, THAT LITTLE SON OF A-

*ahem* excuse me, got a little bit carried away there...

(I miss colonel Jackson... :( )

 

But the best thing is the shock you get, and the tension of knowing that at any moment, all this could just end, with one.

single.

scratch.

 

And giving a respawn system.

ANY.

Kind of respawn system, will absolutely ruin it.

I want them to actually REMOVE the respawn system with another guy, because you know you will still have everything.

 

I want project zomboid to be a hard, brutal, unforgiving game, where the only xp you get, is of trial and error, and learning, and getting better at the game, not leveling up your character, but yourself aswell.

 

Anyway, fair points all...

 

It would take the sting out of dying if you could just have another character standing nearby with equivalent abilities...

 

The fact is that we can respawn and it makes it will (probably) make it wierd. Also, somepeople like that continuity of storyline.

 

If anything they should make a separate harder "iron man" style checkbox you tick at the beginning that makes it so you can't "respawn" if you want it that way. (now we have two suggestions).

 

And to your X-Com allegory, the X-Com game doesn't end when your team dies... you keep all their stuff and just continue with another group... If your player dies... he is still dead... you just continue on with the group.

 

My point is how you feel when your friend dies.

Project zomboid isn't the kind of game that would have any kind of respawn system.

If you want one, then it's best for someone to make a mod about that, because something in the vanilla game like that...

It just wouldn't be PZ anymore.

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My point is how you feel when your friend dies.

Project zomboid isn't the kind of game that would have any kind of respawn system.

If you want one, then it's best for someone to make a mod about that, because something in the vanilla game like that...

It just wouldn't be PZ anymore.

 

 

Again, in Xcom you can always change whatever soldiers you have back into your friend's name and likeness, they would just be starting over in skills. You keep the same equipment and upgrades... I think X-Com is a bad example of the point you are trying to make, which I totally understand. Although, X-com has an "ironman" mode as a game start option (though again as an option)

 

However, making games that abrupt scares off a lot of players which is why "roguelike" games never really take off in the marketplace. Instead of relegating everyone to the system where they have to start over, it woudl be easier to add a checkbox option to have an "ironman" mode for those who want that.

 

If this particular idea is not implemented in the game  it would be near impossible to code into it mod wise. This concept would probably have to be part of the core code.

 

Edit: and again to the X-Com point, this would more encompass what you are talking about there because your player would die and you could NOT rename the other NPCs to be your character...

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I believe (Don't quote me on this... don't EVER quote me!!! ...I'm mildly retarded  ;)) they plan to take away the ability to start a new character on the same map in sandbox mode.

 

Well if they do, toss this out the window

 

I would caution the developers against that for the above stated reasons. They do want to make money after all (probably).

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Well then, you are probably not playing the game for the same reason the rest of us are  :P

 

Well, I am playing the game because I love the following:

 

Killing zombies (and having scary moments where you open a door and a flood of zombies start running you down (and by running I mean shambling))

Survival (looking for food, scavenging, patching yourself up)

Building (Making a base getting materials to do so)

 

I do really like the very near and scary threat of death, and I understand that can give you the thrill and sense of achievement you get when you survive for a long time.

 

However, when you have a kind of death system that is unwavering you are also punishing people for quirks in the system. For instance, the fact that the "e" button is too close to the "r" button and could cause your character to plummet to his death over a railing instead of rotating the railing he was going to place...

 

I do not think it is constructive to an idea to say what you said. I was having a (I thought) constructive diologue with you and you ended it, rather abruptly with an assumption on who I am as a player.

 

I am just suggesting a possible solution to a problem (it can be debated on if it is a problem) that might occur with the current situation the way it is. You addressed your feelings on how you thought the respawn system should be, but not on the idea itself.

 

I am adding the Ironman thing to my OP as it is a good point, that people should have the option to make their death permadeath.

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This shouldn't be available in story or adventure mode. This, in my opinion, should be "Optional" in sandbox mode. 

Pretty nice idea, although many don't like it.

 

 

(Would be great for storytelling. ;) )

 

Thank you! Yes, I agree, it should only be for Sandbox mode. As Survival is meant to be more hardcore and have set options you can't change. I'll make an addendum to the OP.

 

(I wouldn't call 2 people many not liking it, as right now it is an even split)

 

Anyway, yes, that is totally to my point, it gives a better flow to storytelling.

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I don't like this idea. I think it's great the way it is and taking over someone would be like State of Decay. Sorry :(

 

Well, I never played State of Decay so I can't agree or disagree with you there...

 

Can you maybe extrapolate what about how the concept is like State of Decay and why it is bad for those of us who have not played it?

 

Okay we are currently at 3 to 3... still a dead heat...

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ahem. -snip- stop being a D**k :D.  Though I'm sure (because I follow every mondoid and forums) the devs want to make this game as unforgiving and brutal as possible (hence build 31), they are also making a beginner mode. And why is that? to appeal to newer players but also to not force us (veteran, more hardcore players) into it.

That says something, the devs want newer players to get an adequate learning curve in the game so they become regulars, the more regulars, the more popular the game is, the more the word gets out, the more people are trying it, the more sales the devs are making, the more funding they're getting, the further they'll be able to develop the game. 

Something like the idea being proposed here is a niche that fits well within the bounds of sandbox mode. 

 

people really need to stop bashing other people's suggestions based off their preferences for the game. Guess the idea of constructive criticism is taboo around here.

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I believe (Don't quote me on this... don't EVER quote me!!! ...I'm mildly retarded  ;)) they plan to take away the ability to start a new character on the same map in sandbox mode.

Not sandbox, but survival. This was said by Rathlord at some point iirc. So no official dev quotes on this, at least on the forums.

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I wouldn't mind being able to "respawn" in storymode.  Except that all relationships are to be remade and that the old body, if near any npc activity simply, wipes.  Just take it as what anyone else would do in the same situation; you just wouldn't let all the goods on a dead body.  The issue with the idea of respawning in storymode is the being able to basically meta regardless, since you as a brand new fresh person would still know exactly where to go to oh my the luck, find a base made by who knows with all the gathered loot in it etc.  So after all, I think it wouldn't be good to respawn because there would still be flaws in it to alleviate the loss too much.  Might as well turn the page on that old toon, start anew and get back to things from step 1.  It's part of the game. 

 

Or that any value in the world modified by the previous characters are deleted as well - base got raided/burned/overrun, all the gathered loot is gone etc.  Otherwise I really wouldn't see the point.  If that happens the real incentive to it could be the timeline still go on, meaning some old npc's are gone, some new appear etc.  But at that point it would be virtually an entirely new game.  I dunno.  Unless the story part has some different ends aside your character's life? (a given time of play - 1 year total? 2 years? months? etc)

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ahem. -snip- stop being a D**k  :D.  Though I'm sure (because I follow every mondoid and forums) the devs want to make this game as unforgiving and brutal as possible (hence build 31), they are also making a beginner mode. And why is that? to appeal to newer players but also to not force us (veteran, more hardcore players) into it.

That says something, the devs want newer players to get an adequate learning curve in the game so they become regulars, the more regulars, the more popular the game is, the more the word gets out, the more people are trying it, the more sales the devs are making, the more funding they're getting, the further they'll be able to develop the game. 

Something like the idea being proposed here is a niche that fits well within the bounds of sandbox mode. 

 

people really need to stop bashing other people's suggestions based off their preferences for the game. Guess the idea of constructive criticism is taboo around here.

 

Thank you, that was a very reasoned and thoughtful statement and furthers my point on the developer's intentions.

 

 

...cut to save space...

Not sandbox, but survival. This was said by Rathlord at some point iirc. So no official dev quotes on this, at least on the forums.

 

That makes a little more sense...

 

I wouldn't mind being able to "respawn" in storymode.  Except that all relationships are to be remade and that the old body, if near any npc activity simply, wipes.  Just take it as what anyone else would do in the same situation; you just wouldn't let all the goods on a dead body.  The issue with the idea of respawning in storymode is the being able to basically meta regardless, since you as a brand new fresh person would still know exactly where to go to oh my the luck, find a base made by who knows with all the gathered loot in it etc.  So after all, I think it wouldn't be good to respawn because there would still be flaws in it to alleviate the loss too much.  Might as well turn the page on that old toon, start anew and get back to things from step 1.  It's part of the game. 

 

Or that any value in the world modified by the previous characters are deleted as well - base got raided/burned/overrun, all the gathered loot is gone etc.  Otherwise I really wouldn't see the point.  If that happens the real incentive to it could be the timeline still go on, meaning some old npc's are gone, some new appear etc.  But at that point it would be virtually an entirely new game.  I dunno.  Unless the story part has some different ends aside your character's life? (a given time of play - 1 year total? 2 years? months? etc)

 

Okay, so if I am understanding you correctly you want to possibly keep respawn, but instead have all the player's interaction with the world erased in some fashion?

 

In my opinion that seems like an overzealous punishment for respawning. Isn't the loss of a precious survivor, their work and carrying capacity enough punishment for dying? We can debate that point.

 

As per the Devs comments there will be no other ending besides death. Eventually you and all the NPCs will die and that is the end. (Though in sandbox you could keep coming back I suppose).

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At the very least, this could be a mod, if anyone would be willing.

 

I agree, though I don't know how plausible it is to make changes to the respawn mechanics. I haven't looked through all that code but it would be a helluva coding exercise to keep track of all the NPCs in your group, make a ui select NPC screen and transferral of control through a mod.

 

From my understanding of how it operates, it would be an immense project to make then maintain through all the updates. Whereas, if it were already in the code it would be much easier to maintain the process, because we wouldn't have to do a bunch of outside the code calls and tracking. If that makes sense.

 

I will make it a mod though (somehow) if it does not get implemented by the Devs at some point.

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I don't like this idea. I think it's great the way it is and taking over someone would be like State of Decay. Sorry :(

 

Well, I never played State of Decay so I can't agree or disagree with you there...

 

Can you maybe extrapolate what about how the concept is like State of Decay and why it is bad for those of us who have not played it?

 

Okay we are currently at 3 to 3... still a dead heat...

 

Well, it's a great game and I suggest buying it if you can. In it, when you die or just whenever you want you can change over to someone in your group. I just would like a game that does differently and PZ is perfect as it is. If I want to play the story of my group and not me then I'll play State of Decay.

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I don't like this idea. I think it's great the way it is and taking over someone would be like State of Decay. Sorry :(

 

Well, I never played State of Decay so I can't agree or disagree with you there...

 

Can you maybe extrapolate what about how the concept is like State of Decay and why it is bad for those of us who have not played it?

 

Okay we are currently at 3 to 3... still a dead heat...

 

Well, it's a great game and I suggest buying it if you can. In it, when you die or just whenever you want you can change over to someone in your group. I just would like a game that dose differently and PZ is perfect as it is. If I want to play the story of my group and not me then I'll play State of Decay.

 

 

Fair, you are entitled to your opinion, would you be opposed to this being and option instead of a requirement?

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I don't like this idea. I think it's great the way it is and taking over someone would be like State of Decay. Sorry :(

 

Well, I never played State of Decay so I can't agree or disagree with you there...

 

Can you maybe extrapolate what about how the concept is like State of Decay and why it is bad for those of us who have not played it?

 

Okay we are currently at 3 to 3... still a dead heat...

 

Well, it's a great game and I suggest buying it if you can. In it, when you die or just whenever you want you can change over to someone in your group. I just would like a game that dose differently and PZ is perfect as it is. If I want to play the story of my group and not me then I'll play State of Decay.

 

 

Fair, you are entitled to your opinion, would you be opposed to this being and option instead of a requirement?

 

As an option I'd say yeah but I don't think I'd use it but I'd be fine if it's an option.

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