Independent Scotland

[IronCoffins]

I don't live in Europe but im curious how some of you Britons feel about this?

[Connall]

I feared the day this thread would come to the forums.

 

Being one of the few people who is actually from Scotland and on the forums (I know there's a couple, but they aren't particularly regular.)

 

My opinion is no.

 

I get it. I really, really, really, really, really, really, really get it. I get why people would say yes. I really do. While I think it would be kind of cool, there are two reasons.

 

1. I'm a... don't really know how you would describe it. Though I oppose the idea of creating more borders between people in the world and possibly creating an even bigger anti-English/anti-Scottish sentiment in the two regions.

 

2. I just don't trust the people who are leading us into this new direction. I think it's an interesting idea, but I just can't get behind it.

 

That being said, I will say that just about every visible person in this affair, papers, politicians etc have been absolute assholes through the entire course of this campaign. I'm just sick of it at this point, the vitriol that has been present through discussions from both sides, it's been downright despicable. I was asked (for some reason) my opinion of what I thought once and casually just said it, never have I been so viciously talked down to or berated in my life by someone. That's not to say all people who are of the Yes disposition are like that, cause they're not and it's idiotic of either side to try and paint all these Yes/No people as assholes who use underhanded tactics/aggressive tactics because it's just not true.

 

I'm not going to discuss my reasoning for my vote with anyone on the forums (Yes. Everyone.) because while I consider myself somewhat articulate, I just choke can't seem to formalise my opinions that well (see my point 1 and 2)

 

So... I guess that's an opinion?

 

Edit: To add on I think no matter which way the vote goes, it's going to be horrendous. If polls are to be believed one way or the other we're going to have near half of the people in Scotland unhappy about the result and I see that possibly leading to some... not quite... nice actions.

 

Edit (again): I should also say, I'm not much into politics but when I was thinking about the referendum, it was one of the first time where I had a sort of crisis in thought, in the idea that I kind of feel that really. Most citizens who will be voting in this, have no expertise or idea whether an idea like this would be good for us, we just don't have that knowledge. Instead we have to rely on people who are usually disposed one way or the other to tell us and then we got to make some pretty uninformed vote on the matter. I hate the idea I have to help decide something, that really. I have no way of comprehending which decision would be better. Blarg. I'll stop now.

[Viceroy]

I just wanna point out that from the outside looking in, the UK seems very English-centric. You hardly ever see Scots at all on news, on shows or even referred to. It is like Scotland doesn't exist. I could mention at most maybe one or two Scottish cities whereas I can mention a multitude of English ones The UK just doesn't seem all that beneficial to Scotland, or at least, doesn't seem all that interested in Scotland. And by mentioning names I mean cities covered in news and international british press.

 

That is how it seems anyway. As I mentioned I am not English nor do I live in English territory. We were under Britain at one point but after gaining independence it went alot better. A government located in Zone A will always (usually) be better for Zone A than a government located in Zone B.

[plekpot]

I don't really have an opnion on this. We had this discussion several months ago in our research class at uni, can't really remember the outcome. In Belgium, we have a somewhat similar situation between the Flemish and the Walloons. Since the '70 federalisation started with at first only cultural autonomy to language, (largely) economical and localized en personalized affairs. Belgium is still one country, but the process of federalisation has severely weakened the federal state. The only logical conclusion is sadly total independance. I also don't like the evolution from consensus decision making to conflictual politcs like in majority systems like the US and UK. Vicious debate leads to nothing constructive, there is absolutely no readiness to make compromises which is vital to the effective governement of the state.

[Strang]

Spread democracy and freedom!

But on a serious note, if people want to break free and start a new country, I say go ahead

[CylonBookworm]

If Scotland pulls out there are several issues.

#1 - Impossible to use the Pound because it would require setting up a link to the bank of England, and they won't do that because it would mean underwriting Scottish debt. So, you'd need a brand new currency.

#2 - What will happen to Britain's nuclear deterrent? If an independent Scotland forces the UK to remove the Tridents from Falsane, there's nowhere else for them to go. Doing so will be forcing the UK to disarm, and that will go over like a lead balloon at NATO, so good luck joining NATO.

#3 - You lose access to Mi-5/Mi-6, whatever the actual names are, so Scotland would have to start up it's own intelligence services, and cannot necessarily count on a close working relationship between it's new service and the Brit services.

#4 - A shitload of this new money you'll be printing will have to go to build up your now unconnected-to-the-UK military up to self defense standards. Also, you'll need more of your own training grounds because you'll not necessarily be able to use the British ones anymore.

#5 - Do you really think Britain will just think quiet thoughts if you try to claim the entire UK section of the North Sea oil?


Now, while I'm normally on Willie the Groundskeeper's side of things, in this I have to disagree with him.

[plekpot]

If Scotland pulls out there are several issues.

#1 - Impossible to use the Pound because it would require setting up a link to the bank of England, and they won't do that because it would mean underwriting Scottish debt. So, you'd need a brand new currency.

#2 - What will happen to Britain's nuclear deterrent? If an independent Scotland forces the UK to remove the Tridents from Falsane, there's nowhere else for them to go. Doing so will be forcing the UK to disarm, and that will go over like a lead balloon at NATO, so good luck joining NATO.

#3 - You lose access to Mi-5/Mi-6, whatever the actual names are, so Scotland would have to start up it's own intelligence services, and cannot necessarily count on a close working relationship between it's new service and the Brit services.

#4 - A shitload of this new money you'll be printing will have to go to build up your now unconnected-to-the-UK military up to self defense standards. Also, you'll need more of your own training grounds because you'll not necessarily be able to use the British ones anymore.

#5 - Do you really think Britain will just think quiet thoughts if you try to claim the entire UK section of the North Sea oil?

Now, while I'm normally on Willie the Groundskeeper's side of things, in this I have to disagree with him.

Although I don't have a strong opinion, a 'no' seems more likely. As you say, there are an enormous amount of complications that are simply overlooked by the majority of the popultion.

[Connall]

 

If Scotland pulls out there are several issues.

#1 - Impossible to use the Pound because it would require setting up a link to the bank of England, and they won't do that because it would mean underwriting Scottish debt. So, you'd need a brand new currency.

#2 - What will happen to Britain's nuclear deterrent? If an independent Scotland forces the UK to remove the Tridents from Falsane, there's nowhere else for them to go. Doing so will be forcing the UK to disarm, and that will go over like a lead balloon at NATO, so good luck joining NATO.

#3 - You lose access to Mi-5/Mi-6, whatever the actual names are, so Scotland would have to start up it's own intelligence services, and cannot necessarily count on a close working relationship between it's new service and the Brit services.

#4 - A shitload of this new money you'll be printing will have to go to build up your now unconnected-to-the-UK military up to self defense standards. Also, you'll need more of your own training grounds because you'll not necessarily be able to use the British ones anymore.

#5 - Do you really think Britain will just think quiet thoughts if you try to claim the entire UK section of the North Sea oil?

Now, while I'm normally on Willie the Groundskeeper's side of things, in this I have to disagree with him.

Although I don't have a strong opinion, a 'no' seems more likely. As you say, there are an enormous amount of complications that are simply overlooked by the majority of the popultion.

 

 

Most have been explained by Yes campaign, but I feel a couple of explanations are questionable.

[_Gold_]

 

This sums up my opinion in a nutshell - I don't think we'll be the same if Scotland becomes independent. 

 

OFFTOPIC: I just noticed, my post count doesn't seem to be going up...

[Kirrus]

Only goes up in certain areas of the forum. Games and other/general discussion don't increment your postcount.

[Connall]

OFFTOPIC: I just noticed, my post count doesn't seem to be going up...

 

The real thing is.... does it matter?

[deprav]

I'm no specialist on the matter, but there are a few "larger" points that you guys adressed that I'd like to point out.
 

 

Most citizens who will be voting in this, have no expertise or idea whether an idea like this would be good for us, we just don't have that knowledge.

That is true, but politic -at least in a democracy-  shouldn't be an area reserved to experts and specialists. But after many decades of "expertocracy" and people disowning their own political responsabilities, only voting for the "political party they dislike the less" and only when they're asked, of course we end up with the largest part of the population having no clue about basic politics (which is just a sense of logic), and worst, having no clue about how to even start thinking about it because they've been told it's not for them.
 

 

 

 

Those are legitimate concerns in the "power game", on the international scene's masquerade. But people, the real people, don't give a flying feck about those, they just want to eat, have a roof and have a peace of mind about the future of their children.
Right now all they see is the way we lived, what we've done and what we've let being done, will soon be a total disaster, ecologically, economically and humanly. There's no repaying the countries "debt", there's no "growth", there's just our future being sold away.

And that's what this referundum is all about in people's head (just like any independance vote), they just want to break out of the financial system sucking anything good out of everything it touches. They don't know how, they don't know what to do next, they just want out. It's just a "fuck you" vote.


Imo, I don't know if breaking up with the UK the way they're doing it is right, but it's something, it's trying something different, and people usually are afraid of "something different". So even if it's not the right way to do things, it's a good thing in itself, changing. Maybe they'll start being more involved in politic matters to the point they'll end up firing the "representatives", the careerists at the head of their country, and continue toward a more democratic system.


________________________________________________________________________________


On a longer term, it's potentially good for democracy because it can't work on a "large scale". Getting out of a "conglomeration of countries" doesn't mean closing or adding borders inbetween people, it means decentralizing the deciding power. Global communication has become so easy that there are no borders anymore, we could get rid of the concepts of nations and states, and actually we should !
Ideally, the best way to do so probably is by dividing and fragmenting the decisionnal power, diluting it among the people to have a practical and functionnal local democracy, favorising local development and cohesion instead of going toward a shapeless (and utterly dangerous) world wide state.
 

[Ontogenesis]

If Scotland votes 'yes', then it'll be even harder to get the conservatives out of power...

[Connall]

I'm no specialist on the matter, but there are a few "larger" points that you guys adressed that I'd like to point out.

 

 

Most citizens who will be voting in this, have no expertise or idea whether an idea like this would be good for us, we just don't have that knowledge.

That is true, but politic -at least in a democracy-  shouldn't be an area reserved to experts and specialists. But after many decades of "expertocracy" and people disowning their own political responsabilities, only voting for the "political party they dislike the less" and only when they're asked, of course we end up with the largest part of the population having no clue about basic politics (which is just a sense of logic), and worst, having no clue about how to even start thinking about it because they've been told it's not for them.

 

 

I get that, I really do. It doesn't change the fact that we're voting on things we still have no knowledge in. I wouldn't mind having that taken out of my hands personally, problem is though that would require people in politics that you could actually trust. Hence we're stuck with how it is. I'm disillusioned with politics anyway, the referendum is probably one of the few things I'll be voting on.

[Keepbro]

I'm fairly sure that devolution is actually mentioned in some of the more apocalyptic biblical chapters. In short, once Scotland gets its secession vote, it will soon turn into a sort of a less desert-y greener version of Mad Max 2 but with Scots not Aussie accents. Once Salmond has been eaten by his own constituents then they'll be begging to come back in but we won't let them because a Scottish version of Thunderdome just sounds truly awful.

[deprav]

If Scotland votes 'yes', then it'll be even harder to get the conservatives out of power...

But that sadly is a necessary step, it will be harder but they'll have to kick them out eventually. Conservatism is popular because it symbolizes the order in a complicated "chaotic" world which scares people. Changes happen on many years, and I've foreseen it years ago in France : We'll even reach the point the nationalist party will be elected (and it's coming), and as bad as it sounds, it's a necessity.

Sadly we don't have a majority of geniuses among the people, and important changes on large scales come from the observation of mistakes already done and the threat of incoming disasters, not from thoughtful concerns and judicious appreciation of the future. After decades of disillusion, of people voting for """the less worst""", voting reasonnably, they WILL try the extremes (or stop voting, that's what I do). But afterall they'll realize it's no different, probably even worst. They need to try and make their own mistake to finally realize that if they want to get shit done, they need to get shit done by themselves.

That's how things evolved, we can even make a parrallel with the evolution of the species : things change because of the urgency of survival, the threat of incoming disaster. Life adapts, we adapt, we resign ourselves to the world we live in until we finally see the urgent need of changes.

As much as we like to see ourselves as an intelligent animal, we're more like something of an emotionnal one. Our species can't take fundamental conscious decisions about the future out of reflection, that's why we have to go through bad stuff to eventually get something good out of it.

 

 

I get that, I really do. It doesn't change the fact that we're voting on things we still have no knowledge in. I wouldn't mind having that taken out of my hands personally, problem is though that would require people in politics that you could actually trust. Hence we're stuck with how it is. I'm disillusioned with politics anyway, the referendum is probably one of the few things I'll be voting on.

 

Nah we're not "stuck", it sure is a hard situation to escape from, but that referundum likely is a step away from it, an escape door. What's behind the door won't be all nice and cool and there will be a shitload of work to be done, but that's a door people need to take if you don't want to do it out of violence ;o

You'll never have anyone you can trust in politics, that's why people need to be aware of their own responsabilities, being conscious and taking decisions about the future is a duty you have toward the future generations !

[Kitt Frostpaws]

I'll be honest, living ten minutes away from the Scottish border and living with a town that's populace is 50% Scottish.. There are good reasons and bad reasons for Scotland going independent and both sides have their absolute morons and fascists, I'll include an example in a spoiler below: (This girl REALLY fucked me off with her ignorant attitude and refusal to listen to any opinion that combated hers.)

Anyone who wouldn't want to be an independent, free Scotland, completely free of Westminster, England and its corrupt bankers and their Tory lapdogs that sit in parliament passing laws that benefit the rich.
Is a fucking idiot. 
Full stop.
Any country that doesn't want it's own independence must need its people heads examined! 
You can shove your red!
We only need the blue and white thank you.

 

But at the end of the day, I don't get a vote - personally I'd vote no as it just makes a wider divide between countries, the English Vs Scottish feud is childish and pathetic IMO and really needs to be addressed. There are bigger issues and the United Kingdom is stronger as just that: United.

[Jatta Pake]

Fun thought experiment: What if an independent Scotland petitioned to join the United States of America as the 51st state?

 

If all hell does break loose as predicted by many, and the "divorce" is messy, Scotland may sour on going it alone and desire a new suitor. Joining the USA could address several anticipated pain points:

 

Currency - No need for the pound, Euro, or a new Scottish currency. Scotland could just jump on the dollar.

International Treaties - Scots would get American passports and foreign policy would get directed by Washington. Scotland would continue to enjoy all the security guarantees of NATO along with the comfort of being part of the world's strongest superpower.

Economy - Let's face it. Living the single bachelor life without the deep pockets of your wealthy spouse (UK) is going to mean adjusting to a lower standard of living. Who wants that? Best to shack up with a younger, richer replacement (US).  In America, we call it "trading up". The honeymoon period would guarantee a tremendous amount of gifts from the new suitor as domestic America runs wild with Scottish Fever.

The Queen - Sorry, no kings or queens allowed. Kinda America's thing. No need to go through a gut wrenching and soul searching journey about what to do in regards to The Queen.  I know it might be heartbreaking, but America is severely allergic to kings and queens. Scotland can bring all the photos it wants though.

Statehood and Independence - There is no legal barrier to Scotland becoming a State, and the Republic of Texas provides some precedent on the process.  True, Scots would be replacing London with Washington, but I suspect the State of Scotland would enjoy a bit more freedom as Americans in the domestic states dance around with Braveheart paint on their faces in the throes of a new Scotland Fad.  Additionally, Washington is far less competent than London at lording over people outside of the Western Hemisphere.  Scots could probably get away with more stuff than the other States.  Unfortunately, Scotland would lack true independence but I suspect true independence will grow stale after a decade of living alone.  Scotland would be a win-win for US politics.  Republicans would get more white American voters and Democrats would get more liberals. Besides, Russia is expanding. America isn't going to sit around for very long without answering with an expansion of its own.

Bitter Exes - America divorced England in 1776, so America understands how bitter Exes can be. England burned down the house (aka the White House) in 1812. Talk about bitchy.  Having America by Scotland's side might make England think twice before tossing all of Scotland's clothes into the street.

EU - The European Union talks a good talk, but did a partnership with France ever stop England's nonsense? I mean, nothing against France and Germany, but you know they will just end up dominating the relationship with their own issues. Between the French snobbery and German austerity, Scotland would probably have to share a table with Greece. A State of Scotland in the United States will guarantee instant celebrity status.

[Keepbro]

I love how they are all making it out to be "Lets not have corrupt Tories from down south lording over us" when the sad truth is is that corrupt Scottish bastards were the foundation of the greatest evil empire the world has ever seen lording it over 1/10th of the worlds population and were far worse than any Englishman could hope to be.

 

Seriously - the only bosses I have EVER come to actual physical blows with have all been Scottish.

[Kitt Frostpaws]

I love how they are all making it out to be "Lets not have corrupt Tories from down south lording over us" when the sad truth is is that corrupt Scottish bastards were the foundation of the greatest evil empire the world has ever seen lording it over 1/10th of the worlds population and are far worse than any Englishman.

 

..Really?

I never knew that!

[CylonBookworm]

Fun thought experiment: What if an independent Scotland petitioned to join the United States of America as the 51st state?

 

If all hell does break loose as predicted by many, and the "divorce" is messy, Scotland may sour on going it alone and desire a new suitor. Joining the USA could address several anticipated pain points:

 

Currency - No need for the pound, Euro, or a new Scottish currency. Scotland could just jump on the dollar.

International Treaties - Scots would get American passports and foreign policy would get directed by Washington. Scotland would continue to enjoy all the security guarantees of NATO along with the comfort of being part of the world's strongest superpower.

Economy - Let's face it. Living the single bachelor life without the deep pockets of your wealthy spouse (UK) is going to mean adjusting to a lower standard of living. Who wants that? Best to shack up with a younger, richer replacement (US).  In America, we call it "trading up". The honeymoon period would guarantee a tremendous amount of gifts from the new suitor as domestic America runs wild with Scottish Fever.

The Queen - Sorry, no kings or queens allowed. Kinda America's thing. No need to go through a gut wrenching and soul searching journey about what to do in regards to The Queen.  I know it might be heartbreaking, but America is severely allergic to kings and queens. Scotland can bring all the photos it wants though.

Statehood and Independence - There is no legal barrier to Scotland becoming a State, and the Republic of Texas provides some precedent on the process.  True, Scots would be replacing London with Washington, but I suspect the State of Scotland would enjoy a bit more freedom as Americans in the domestic states dance around with Braveheart paint on their faces in the throes of a new Scotland Fad.  Additionally, Washington is far less competent than London at lording over people outside of the Western Hemisphere.  Scots could probably get away with more stuff than the other States.  Unfortunately, Scotland would lack true independence but I suspect true independence will grow stale after a decade of living alone.  Scotland would be a win-win for US politics.  Republicans would get more white American voters and Democrats would get more liberals. Besides, Russia is expanding. America isn't going to sit around for very long without answering with an expansion of its own.

Bitter Exes - America divorced England in 1776, so America understands how bitter Exes can be. England burned down the house (aka the White House) in 1812. Talk about bitchy.  Having America by Scotland's side might make England think twice before tossing all of Scotland's clothes into the street.

EU - The European Union talks a good talk, but did a partnership with France ever stop England's nonsense? I mean, nothing against France and Germany, but you know they will just end up dominating the relationship with their own issues. Between the French snobbery and German austerity, Scotland would probably have to share a table with Greece. A State of Scotland in the United States will guarantee instant celebrity status.

You win the thread. Moderators, I hereby put forth a request to lock the thread, as nothing anybody says after Jatta will ever come close to what we've just read.

[Strang]

Fun thought experiment: What if an independent Scotland petitioned to join the United States of America as the 51st state?

 

If all hell does break loose as predicted by many, and the "divorce" is messy, Scotland may sour on going it alone and desire a new suitor. Joining the USA could address several anticipated pain points:

 

Currency - No need for the pound, Euro, or a new Scottish currency. Scotland could just jump on the dollar.

International Treaties - Scots would get American passports and foreign policy would get directed by Washington. Scotland would continue to enjoy all the security guarantees of NATO along with the comfort of being part of the world's strongest superpower.

Economy - Let's face it. Living the single bachelor life without the deep pockets of your wealthy spouse (UK) is going to mean adjusting to a lower standard of living. Who wants that? Best to shack up with a younger, richer replacement (US).  In America, we call it "trading up". The honeymoon period would guarantee a tremendous amount of gifts from the new suitor as domestic America runs wild with Scottish Fever.

The Queen - Sorry, no kings or queens allowed. Kinda America's thing. No need to go through a gut wrenching and soul searching journey about what to do in regards to The Queen.  I know it might be heartbreaking, but America is severely allergic to kings and queens. Scotland can bring all the photos it wants though.

Statehood and Independence - There is no legal barrier to Scotland becoming a State, and the Republic of Texas provides some precedent on the process.  True, Scots would be replacing London with Washington, but I suspect the State of Scotland would enjoy a bit more freedom as Americans in the domestic states dance around with Braveheart paint on their faces in the throes of a new Scotland Fad.  Additionally, Washington is far less competent than London at lording over people outside of the Western Hemisphere.  Scots could probably get away with more stuff than the other States.  Unfortunately, Scotland would lack true independence but I suspect true independence will grow stale after a decade of living alone.  Scotland would be a win-win for US politics.  Republicans would get more white American voters and Democrats would get more liberals. Besides, Russia is expanding. America isn't going to sit around for very long without answering with an expansion of its own.

Bitter Exes - America divorced England in 1776, so America understands how bitter Exes can be. England burned down the house (aka the White House) in 1812. Talk about bitchy.  Having America by Scotland's side might make England think twice before tossing all of Scotland's clothes into the street.

EU - The European Union talks a good talk, but did a partnership with France ever stop England's nonsense? I mean, nothing against France and Germany, but you know they will just end up dominating the relationship with their own issues. Between the French snobbery and German austerity, Scotland would probably have to share a table with Greece. A State of Scotland in the United States will guarantee instant celebrity status.

Though it would be nice to have Scotland as a 51st state (so I can laugh at my Scottish friends) I don't think it would work. The UK may through a fit because there would be guns owned by private citizens on the island and that could lead to some angry Brit officials. Also who would get the oil north of Scotland? I'm not sure the Brits want to give that up

[Kitt Frostpaws]

Last time I checked even we weren't touching that oil!

[IronCoffins]

Well the union jack as its called would be changed, looks like the flag of England would have to changed eh? Since it incorporates Scotland, as well as other nation like Ireland and such.. UK at a time had the strongest navy and empire known to man, reaching on all parts of the world. Control has always been a major factor anywhere on earth, one faction controlling another like always. Many, many years ago when  longshanks and William Wallace were around there was that fight for unity of a Scotland, but wouldn't there be a understanding by now? Im more curious of what is starting this now? Since I don't live there I don't know off hand why this is a major issue now. Scotland was "founded in the 9th century 843" they unioned with uk in 1707 whether by free will or forced I don't know, probably forced, just like Otto von Bismarck with the German states. Now I understand it would weaken the UK in various ways, economic and whatnot. I always thought a lot of nations were like puppets still, just waiting for the queens orders for, X reason. if though a lot of kings and queens are political figures anymore, that's why we have prime ministers who are in real control, though I don't know for sure really. 

 

England's lost so much, Scotland is just another part of England by now, they should instead work together then separate themselves even more. But I don't live there, I don't know the main issues at hand. Some places should just be English no matter what, like the Falkland's, remember that one? Like I said its hard to say anything really, im not from there, I live in the U.S, in ohio. It be like if the south or wherever wanted to break apart again. I'de say no, we are stronger as a people, as a whole but in the end I guess its not my call its the people as a whole that make that call.

 

Control for either good or bad only gets you so far. Turkey had once a vast empire across the middle east and northern Africa. Austria Hungary had control of the Balkans area that had many races, like the middle east, so many differences with people. Maybe in the long one its a good thing they broke apart, I know for these two nations it was. But this is not the first or last time stuff like this will happen. Nationalism is a good and bad thing I think depending on what the circumstance is I guess   

[Connall]

Today's the day.